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Old 08.04.2012, 14:23
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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The problem is not the way a woman dress up but the way some people think it is ok to abuse women for the way they dress.

You are polite as usual. The problem however rather is that there are men who think it is ok to abuse women but because they are women. Who feel superior just for being men. It's a shame, but we have to face realities as they are.

Back to article mentioned by "Misr". Reality in Muslim countries are a bit different from what the writer said. Reality is that there is as much abuse there as here.
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Old 08.04.2012, 14:39
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

Interestingly I often discussed 'dress' with some of my Muslim students in the UK. some chose to dress much more conservatively than their own parents, and chose to wear a scarf. THEIR choice. I had a great relationship with many of them, so we talked a lot. We used to organise girls only trips to Brick Lane and London every year, so plenty of time to chat as I drove the school minibus down. What they said, and this really surprised me- is that they felt the other girls, with tiny tops with boobs and midrift showing, and very short skirts or shorts, were the ones who were exploited- the ones who felt compulsed to dress that way to please the boys and follow the 'models' in the magazines. They really felt that by covering up - they were freeing themselves from such pressures, and returning to being young women, rather than 'pieces of meat' (their words, not mine).

My Muslim cousins in South Africa are very devout muslims, but are not ashamed of their body and allow their children to wear lovely Summer clothes, swimsuits, etc. The older one who has done the Hadj will wear more covering clothes and a scarf on more formal occasion.

One thing that is for sure, there are almost as many ways of being Muslim, as of being Christian, and that so many adiths are added by all sorts of groups and their Imams for all sorts of reasons. We had girls from a strict brethren in my school in UK who wore long skirts and sleeves, long sock and a scarf always- and who were not allowed to stay on at school at 16, even if they really wanted to. Another certainty is that pre puberty girls do not have to cover up, and do not have to be secluded from boys. And another, thanks Sbrinz, is that 1000s of kids drown every year in the world, because they can't swim.

What I find abhorrent though, is that SOME Swiss people are gloating with glee about this decision, for all the wrong reasons. They exist, sadly.

Last edited by Odile; 08.04.2012 at 15:02.
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Old 08.04.2012, 14:44
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

http://linkstoislam.com/
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Old 08.04.2012, 19:29
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

Its not just Islam, I went to Israel in my teens to a very religious Jewish boarding school. Girls and boys were not allowed to swim together. We had separate swimming sessions strictly forbidden to swim together.

However we remedied that by sneaking out of our dorms at night and breaking into the pool for a midnight swim.

Girls weren't allowed to wear skirts above the knee, or trousers, short sleeve T-shirts.
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Old 08.04.2012, 19:37
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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Its not just Islam, I went to Israel in my teens to a very religious Jewish boarding school. Girls and boys were not allowed to swim together. We had separate swimming sessions strictly forbidden to swim together.

However we remedied that by sneaking out of our dorms at night and breaking into the pool for a midnight swim.

Girls weren't allowed to wear skirts above the knee, or trousers, short sleeve T-shirts.
I went to a Catholic school and we had the same with skirt. We used to roll them up on the waist at the moment we were going out.
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Old 08.04.2012, 21:15
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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I went to a Catholic school and we had the same with skirt. We used to roll them up on the waist at the moment we were going out.
I hope that they washed the skirt after use in Israel before it shipped out to Montréal.

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Old 09.04.2012, 07:47
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

When I was a swimming teacher (in Australia) I taught boys and girls, including a pair of sisters (and their brother) who were muslim. When they started the girls wore regular one-piece swimsuits and the parents (who supervised the classes closely) didn't mind which teacher taught the class. When the elder girl was about ten, I think, she started wearing a full-body swimsuit (a burkhini) and the parents, having observed my "hands-off all students unless physical support is required" approach, asked for me to teach all of their children (even though I am male). Both girls could swim really well before they hit puberty, so they didn't need lessons when the issue became more sensitive. As for school swimming, they were in a girls-only school and the school was sensitive to the issue (putting children of those families who requested it into the swimming class of their female sport teacher).
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Old 09.04.2012, 08:21
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

Not sure how many Muslim threads we had by now:

1. Islam, just like any other major religion, has not one clearly defined set of rules. The interpretations range from Turks being not exactly that strict with Alcohol to Wahhabis believing in Jihad.

2. Much more important than the exact type of Islam one follows are many other factors defining how open you are to integrate into another culture. The most important factor has been proven time and again to be education. The more educated you are (not the number of college degrees, but the social environment you grew up in), the more likely are you accepting that there is not just one truth or just one right and wrong...

Bottom line: There is no problem with Muslims in Europe. There are a couple of problems with groups of low educated immigrants that cannot accept that their new homes are different from their old ones... and that their kids will therefore not be the exact carbon copy of themselves, make different experiences in life, get a different education and will live a different life style. This has nothing to do with religion at all, those claims are just cheap killer argument as in "It is against my RELIGION and you said you have the freedom of religion".
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Old 09.04.2012, 09:46
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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A) THat "Muslim swimsuit" is NOT accepted as "swimsuit" at all here
B) They most likely spoke with a teacher and not with a psychiatrist of the "Schulamt" . Most teachers tend to ignore aqua-phobia as a psychical problem and simply regard such children as "wasserscheu"
C) that boys are instructed to balance the body of girls during swimming instruction is normal . The idea is that many boys are much stronger than girl

A2) At a time when swimming places prohibit long "shorts" or boys wearing shorts over swimming slips, you cannot expect that almost full clothing is accepted

I am sorry, but those families live in Switzerland, and so by law have to accept and respect Swiss laws and regulations.
-
I can't help but think that, in this case, the "law" has been used when a little commonsense, understanding and compromise would have been easier, less stressful and provided a win-win situation. As it happened, I feel the whole fuss was a packaged, cover up for a racist reaction from the school.

1. Some of the boys I take to swimming lessons, wear baggies that come to their knees. (a little awkward for them in the water,cold and clammy when they get out but they cope.)

2.A couple of the boys and the girls, wear lycra one piece suits that cover them from neck, to knee, and to elbow level. It' takes them longer if they need to have a toilet break hlaf way through the lesson, but is still not a problem and not disruptive to anyone else.

There is more body touching done by children in the pool, than when they are at other activities. Any reputable teacher should be able to organise the swim classes to avoid both child/child touching, and adult /child contact, IF it is an issue.

Incidently, at a World Championship boating event, where most teams wwore skimpy shorts and fitting tops, the Iranian women wore long scarves with a hat on top, long sleeved t shirts with a thigh length tunic over that, and ankle length loose trousers. They won a medal!
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Old 09.04.2012, 13:58
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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I can't help but think that, in this case, the "law" has been used when a little commonsense, understanding and compromise would have been easier, less stressful and provided a win-win situation. As it happened, I feel the whole fuss was a packaged, cover up for a racist reaction from the school.

1. Some of the boys I take to swimming lessons, wear baggies that come to their knees. (a little awkward for them in the water,cold and clammy when they get out but they cope.)

2.A couple of the boys and the girls, wear lycra one piece suits that cover them from neck, to knee, and to elbow level. It' takes them longer if they need to have a toilet break hlaf way through the lesson, but is still not a problem and not disruptive to anyone else.

There is more body touching done by children in the pool, than when they are at other activities. Any reputable teacher should be able to organise the swim classes to avoid both child/child touching, and adult /child contact, IF it is an issue.

Incidently, at a World Championship boating event, where most teams wwore skimpy shorts and fitting tops, the Iranian women wore long scarves with a hat on top, long sleeved t shirts with a thigh length tunic over that, and ankle length loose trousers. They won a medal!
All you mention is true, BUT a lot depends on the individual teacher. I still remember the day in about 1967 when I had to tell our gym teacher that unless he dropped a certain demand (registration for the Federal Ministry of Defence), my schoolfriend H... whose father was employee at the Turkish Consulate General had to get assistance of their (non existant) lawyer and that I had to ask dad for the assistance of our (equally non existant) family lawyer. And then the teacher mellowed quite nicely
  #71  
Old 11.04.2012, 08:47
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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I went to a Catholic school and we had the same with skirt. We used to roll them up on the waist at the moment we were going out.
But honestly... how does one roll up a full veil?

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Old 11.04.2012, 08:55
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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But honestly... how does one roll up a full veil?
Hey Treverus and all good people here, Good day to you all

we should respect other cultures and stop joking.
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Old 11.04.2012, 14:27
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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Hey Treverus and all good people here, Good day to you all

we should respect other cultures and stop joking.
Oh, hi!

Hello and welcome to this forum! What a pity that you did not introduce yourself as the automated email suggested to you before you started groaning around.

This website is a bit different than most in the sense that many user know each other for quite some time and shared quite some stories with each other. So if you as a newby do not understand each an every joke - it must not necessarily be your lack of humour...
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Old 11.04.2012, 22:00
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Hey Treverus and all good people here, Good day to you all

we should respect other cultures and stop joking.
To understand other cultures does NOT mean to support restrictive and ultra-conservative folks out of those cultures and does NOT mean to DISadvantage secularist people from those "other cultures"
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Old 11.04.2012, 22:26
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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To understand other cultures does NOT mean to support restrictive and ultra-conservative folks out of those cultures and does NOT mean to DISadvantage secularist people from those "other cultures"
Hey Wollishofener,

Thank you and thanks to Treverus for his reply and for the red reputation.

Have a good evening all..


**** Dear English Forum switzerland Moderator(s)

I beg your pardon, please, find a way to let people have fun by other mean away from religion, make a code of ethics or whatever to make talk about religion reduced or in a respected manner on this discussion board.

Moderator, please spend some effort and find a situation to make all winning, the silly and ignorant comments on this discussion board about religion in general (not only islam) makes a group to suffer and isolating them is not a solution.

Hey People I see you care about dogs and cats on the discussion board, why don't you care about human beings being upset from your way of joking about their religion, please have some blood !!!!


Good night to all those here.
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Old 11.04.2012, 22:37
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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**** Dear English Forum switzerland Moderator(s)

I beg your pardon, please, find a way to let people have fun by other mean away from religion, make a code of ethics or whatever to make talk about religion reduced or in a respected manner on this discussion board.

Moderator, please spend some effort and find a situation to make all winning, the silly and ignorant comments on this discussion board about religion in general (not only islam) makes a group to suffer and isolating them is not a solution.

Hey People I see you care about dogs and cats on the discussion board, why don't you care about human beings being upset from your way of joking about their religion, please have some blood !!!!
Just stay away from the threads that you find offensive. There are plenty more threads that do not discuss religion in any way.

Welcome to the free world!
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Old 11.04.2012, 22:40
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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where did the article say that they were expats? I mean, the odds aren't great, everybody knows that all expats live in private complexes where only their native tongue is spoken, and for sure they don't let their kids mix with the local schools.
Its not need to read it... Switzerland its not a Muslim country, actually when you refill the registration formulary with your religion the tax is paid only to the protestant or Catholic church (at least is what i remember of my registration process 1 year ago) and as a Expats we should integrate in the sociaty we are living... its clear that perhaps the language and the food or music or some cultural details cant be change but if you dont want your kids to integrate in a diferent culture and act according to the country you are living then you are free to pay private classes for them or go back to your country and keep your culture... Its clear!!
Actually I think its great that the swiss are not accepting other cultures come to the country and do whatever they want, I cant go to the goverment and pretend to find the info in my language... i should learn the official lenguage...
we are Spanish and in Spain you can find the authorities formularys in lenguages that are not official or doesnt even belong to the UE... the goverment gives money to others religions to build their churches... its totally crazy...
Is the expat that should be adapted to the new country not the new country to the expat...

Last edited by Eliana_abad; 11.04.2012 at 22:51.
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Old 11.04.2012, 22:55
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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please have some blood !!!!


Good night to all those here.
Really?

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Old 11.04.2012, 22:56
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Hey Wollishofener,

Thank you and thanks to Treverus for his reply and for the red reputation.

Have a good evening all..


**** Dear English Forum switzerland Moderator(s)

I beg your pardon, please, find a way to let people have fun by other mean away from religion, make a code of ethics or whatever to make talk about religion reduced or in a respected manner on this discussion board.

Moderator, please spend some effort and find a situation to make all winning, the silly and ignorant comments on this discussion board about religion in general (not only islam) makes a group to suffer and isolating them is not a solution.

Hey People I see you care about dogs and cats on the discussion board, why don't you care about human beings being upset from your way of joking about their religion, please have some blood !!!!


Good night to all those here.
A) People joking about religion ? I cannot see much joking about any religion on this forum
B) what group suffers ?
C) who exactly is upset from "joking about religion" ?
D) what exactly should the moderators do ?
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Old 11.04.2012, 23:02
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Re: Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court

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A) People joking about religion ? I cannot see much joking about any religion on this forum
B) what group suffers ?
C) who exactly is upset from "joking about religion" ?
D) what exactly should the moderators do ?
Burn the infidels!
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