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  #21  
Old 29.03.2012, 12:11
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

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Very often the ones who oppose assisted-suicide also oppose the death penalty, on the grounds that the death penalty is ''inhumane'' (at least the ones I've met). But keeping a patient in pain isn't? That has never made any sense to me...
They just oppose death in any shape and form. Failing to realise it will come to all of us - sooner or later.

Having the choice of when to shuffle off this mortal coil is, in my view, a good thing. It may just allow the person to die with dignity.

Rebecca Adler: I just want to die with a little dignity.
Dr. Gregory House: There's no such thing! Our bodies break down, sometimes when we're 90, sometimes before we're even born, but it always happens and there's never any dignity in it! I don't care if you can walk, see, wipe your own ass... it's always ugly, always! You can live with dignity; you can't die with it!
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  #22  
Old 29.03.2012, 12:13
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

If my health goes south, I am going North.
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  #23  
Old 29.03.2012, 12:20
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

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Thanks for starting this thread, I had no idea assisted suicide was legal here, and it's stirring up a lot of thoughts on the issue.

Does anyone know what other countries it is legal in? What kind of regulations/ policies are put in place around it?
AFAIk it's legal in Belgium, Netherlands and three US-States: Oregon, Washington and Montana.
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Old 29.03.2012, 12:37
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

Ironically, it's the myriad advances of modern medicine that allow people to be kept alive, even in many of the most hopeless of circumstances. People with horrific injuries and illnesses are being kept alive today, who - only 20 years ago - would have died.

Much as sex and sexuality were taboo to the Victorians, perhaps death and dying are the equivelant taboo today (at least in the West)? I wonder how many EF members have seen someone die or have seen a dead body*? With this detachment from death and the dying (something omniprescent up to mid last century, I would guess), death is separated from life and the living and is now both feared and fought.

However, death can come in many guises and sometimes death comes as a friend...

And I strongly believe that it is up to the conscience and situation of each individual to decide when to welcome that friend

TD
* as part of my work and training I can say "yes, I have" to both of those...
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Old 29.03.2012, 12:40
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

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This is offensive to me. This is NOT suicide. If you don't understand the concept behind it, it is perfectly ok. But learn about it before to call it something it is not.
I think there is a bit of a semantics problem. I agree with you Nil, I don't consider it a suicide but even the official document quoted by the OP calls it like that (granted, in absolute terms is called "assisted").

I had a cousin who died last week at 42, and he was seriously considering doing it, but somehow they still had some hope for a cure. If I am ever is such situation I already warned my wife that I am all for the "assisted" option. Not only because of me, but for the people around suffering for a long period. I wouldn't be able to do that to my beloved ones. Once again, a matter of personal chioce ....
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  #26  
Old 29.03.2012, 12:56
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

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I think there is a bit of a semantics problem. I agree with you Nil, I don't consider it a suicide but even the official document quoted by the OP calls it like that (granted, in absolute terms is called "assisted").

I had a cousin who died last week at 42, and he was seriously considering doing it, but somehow they still had some hope for a cure. If I am ever is such situation I already warned my wife that I am all for the "assisted" option. Not only because of me, but for the people around suffering for a long period. I wouldn't be able to do that to my beloved ones. Once again, a matter of personal chioce ....
Yes, I have my best friend and my cousin who committed suicide. It is a very very different concept and mind of an assisted suicide. The name are similar but not to confound.
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Old 29.03.2012, 12:57
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Ironically, it's the myriad advances of modern medicine that allow people to be kept alive, even in many of the most hopeless of circumstances. People with horrific injuries and illnesses are being kept alive today, who - only 20 years ago - would have died.

Much as sex and sexuality were taboo to the Victorians, perhaps death and dying are the equivelant taboo today (at least in the West)? I wonder how many EF members have seen someone die or have seen a dead body*? With this detachment from death and the dying (something omniprescent up to mid last century, I would guess), death is separated from life and the living and is now both feared and fought.

However, death can come in many guises and sometimes death comes as a friend...

And I strongly believe that it is up to the conscience and situation of each individual to decide when to welcome that friend

TD
* as part of my work and training I can say "yes, I have" to both of those...
Totally agree.

Most people used to die at home, surrounded by their families. My mother died at home, we were all there. It was incredible, peaceful. it's not a failure.
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Old 29.03.2012, 13:15
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

In my belief any method of trying to kill the soul regardless of the reason behind is forbidden - believing in this doesn't bring me any honor, and not believing in that doesn't bring you any shame - I am just stating how I see it.

And why do I see that people should not kill themselves when they are terribly suffering from pain, because I believe that there is a life after where there will be more fair justice and all the pain that one suffers in his life, will be substituted in the life after.

It is also possible to find people believe in my belief but disagree on my opinion as we are all human beings not angels coming from heaven.

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"Euthanasia or Mercy Killing is the act or practice of ending the life of an individual suffering from a terminal illness or an incurable condition, through lethal injection or the suspension of extraordinary medical treatment.

This act is Islamically forbidden for it encompasses a positive role on the part of the physician to end the life of the patient and hasten his death via lethal injection, electric shock, a sharp weapon or any other way. This is an act of killing, and, killing is a major sin and thus forbidden in Islam, the religion of pure mercy."

Mar. 22, 2005 - Yusuf al-Qaradawi, PhD
http://euthanasia.procon.org/view.an...stionID=000156
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  #29  
Old 29.03.2012, 13:21
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

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In my belief any method of trying to kill the soul regardless of the reason behind is forbidden - believing in this doesn't bring me any honor, and not believing in that doesn't bring you any shame - I am just stating how I see it.

And why do I see that people should not kill themselves when they are terribly suffering from pain, because I believe that there is a life after where there will be more fair justice and all the pain that one suffers in his life, will be substituted in the life after.

It is also possible to find people believe in my belief but disagree on my opinion as we are all human beings not angels coming from heaven.

http://euthanasia.procon.org/view.an...stionID=000156
It's an option. I respect your opinion but you must respect mine too or this whole open-mindedness thing won't work.
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Old 29.03.2012, 13:27
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]
And why do I see that people should not kill themselves when they are terribly suffering from pain, because I believe that there is a life after where there will be more fair justice and all the pain that one suffers in his life, will be substituted in the life after.
questionID=000156[/URL]

It would be very nice to believe that; sometimes (and only sometimes), I wish I could believe that too, but I simply can't.
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  #31  
Old 29.03.2012, 13:33
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

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I wonder what makes people so mad when others share their opinions and believes, does the post hits people head or come and stay on their shoulders until they ofload it by throwing stones and attacking others persons like that.

Talking about one's belief doesn't mean that it is the best ever on earth, it means that it is what I believe the best for me, and I don't see an issue posting it on a public forum.
Words can hurt more than a stick on the head. I am tough enough to be tolerant to let you post whatever you feel or think, but I will tell you that I find your posts pretty ignorant and your choice of words repeatedly insulting for people who do not agree to your view. If you do this on an Internet forum is it one thing, but since you expressed the wish to help terminally ill cancer patients I can only repeat that I do not think you have the right mindset for it. Because you seem to be on a mission to save souls by preventing them from comitting what is in your eyes a sin... and that is something very different from the help they need.

How do I know? Because instead of joining the German army did I spend over a year in the worst part of the medical system by choice: The heaviliest disabled people support. So I took care of patients with multiples sclerosis in its final stage and similar. In other words have I met many people who are at the stage that they think about dignitas as an option for the case that the disease takes over completely.

Your argument that they are looking for an easy way out makes me frankly furious as I wish nobody to experience for a day what these folks went through for years. They know pain and hardship better than you and they know perfectly well when it becomes unbearable. During my time there did I meet more than one religious nutcase trying to save a soul or two. I was more than close to hit them with a crutch or walking frame, but that would have blown my argument of not joining the army (that I am a convinced pacifist...)... so I decided against it.

There are two forms of ignorance: People who don't know better and people who behave idiotic against better knowledge. I hope you are the first case and you will make some real deep experiences with your volunteering. But be prepared that it might shatter your fairly simplistic view on right and wrong and most of all do not preach. Relly really don't.
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  #32  
Old 29.03.2012, 13:54
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

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It's an option. I respect your opinion but you must respect mine too or this whole open-mindedness thing won't work.

Thank you, would you kindly let me know how did you feel that I don't respect other's opinion through my posts in this thread - I am not challenging you, but I am trying to learn so I can avoid doing this in future posts.

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It would be very nice to believe that; sometimes (and only sometimes), I wish I could believe that too, but I simply can't.
Understood, and thank you for sharing your opinion - It is also very difficult to me and to a lot others who believe the same belief, it sometimes gets weak due to a lot of life stress and unexpected circumstances.
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Words can hurt more than a stick on the head.

Thank you.

I don't see myself having a magic stick that will turn all the world to believe in what I believe, and I also don't think that all the world HAVE to believe in what I believe,
I see that God who has all the power, gave the people all the freedom in their belief, there are even people whom don't believe in God and they are free to live their life the way they want - why then should I control them, and what honor will I have out of that.

I am sure if I tried to help those who want to end their lives here, I will definitely fail I may even make them want to end their life faster from how they may get bored out of my talk that will never come inline with their thoughts especially on the time they are in.

I had volunteered 12 years in a Cancer hospital and on my shoulders 11 person left in peace this life smiling and happy for having this hard end of life exam, this may not work here and I respect this,

I will now volunteer in administrative work, where I will not have direct contact with patients as I am sure that with my current culture, language and belief I will not help, I may even bring more pain to people there.

I deeply apologize if my words were too tough for you or others who have read it, and I kindly ask you to excuse me if I missused words, that is unintentioned as english is not my native language, I also hope you also feel that you really did the same to me by your last line of your first post.

Thank you and have nice rest of the day.
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  #33  
Old 29.03.2012, 14:01
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

I witnessed the struggle and the pain of two very close friends over months and simply don't wish to die a this way. It's a personal matter of course and there are different fews around, but that's my decision and the last thing I want is to be terminally ill and to be forced into a discussion about a subject like this.
I am a strong believer that you should solve matters before they turn into a problem.
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  #34  
Old 29.03.2012, 14:17
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

To me, the legalisation of assisted suicide is a huge step forwards for Switzerland.

Legally, assisted suicide is just that: suicide (as in, the person wishing to die must complete the last step which leads to his death (swallow the lethal liquid, turn the handle etc.) independently), which is assisted by another person.

sui caedere = to set an end to one's life, as a completely neutral Latin expression.

But suicide still has a social stigma attached to it: to some, it is equivalent to "sneaking out of life", "running away", "being selfish", "giving up even though there was still a chance to try treatment XYZ".

I believe that everyone has the same rights as to how s/he wishes to die, and passing judgment on it is wrong.

Not everyone believes that pain should be suffered through until the bitter end.
Not everyone believes that a life as a quadriplegic/with cancer (or any other disease or any form of distress) is worth living.
Nobody, neither doctors nor anyone else, can make the choice for another human being as to which level of pain/distress/dependence is ok.
Just because a sufferer's life seems "tolerable" to someone witnessing the sufferer, it does not mean that the sufferer wants to live that way.


Opting for assisted suicide should be well thought through, as it is a big step and (if one chooses to demand it), whatever was discussed with the assisted suicide organisation will regulate the last days, hours, minutes and seconds before one's death.

If you become member of a suicide organisation, when you get close to dying, you will still be able to choose: Do I want to die of natural causes or do I want to leave before (for example the pain of terminal cancer) becomes unbearable?

Without the option of assisted suicide, one is forced to either attempt suicide, which might succeed or fail, and if it fails, one never knows what will happen next, or to die from natural causes, which can, but must not, be very painful. Being a member of a suicide organisation does not mean that one has to choose to die by assisted suicide, but it gives you the choice to do so if you wish.

Please inform yourself thoroughly before taking any steps, be it hospice care, palliative care, a suicide organisation or whichever you want.
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  #35  
Old 29.03.2012, 15:50
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

I very much support assisted suicide and feel good to know that this option exists in Switzerland. It seems most people in this thread support it as well.

I do want to add a couple of thoughts on my personal beliefs here. I don't believe that suicide is ever about wanting to die. It's about wanting to escape the pain of living. And for that reason, we must never stop trying to improve the quality of life for people whilst still offering assisted suicide as an option.
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  #36  
Old 31.03.2012, 20:48
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

I found an informative video on the subject from March 27, 2012, unfortunately it's only available in German.
Take a look:

http://www.videoportal.sf.tv/video?i...5-90622a909eab
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Old 31.03.2012, 21:03
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

www.exit-geneve.ch

is the official site for the Romandie association of which I am a member.
There is an English section. Anybody can join, providing you are resident in Switzerland, irrespective of nationality.

I am a fighter, and should a terrible disease strike me, I would fight like hell I'm sure - but when and if the battle is lost, and the only prospect is loss of dignity, terrible pain or slow suffocation- I'd take the Exit - and feel very grateful that living here gives me that choice, if ever I needed it.
Exit really does take great care to ensure NO pressure is born to bear on the person requesting help- with several visits, and insisting on talking to the person alone. Any sign of hesitation or external pressure, and they will not go ahead. They have my utmost admiration. People here often say CH is stuck in the 50s - but sometimes they are way ahead. I am so glad I do not live in a country where the religious lobbies make the most important decisions for others.

Could somebody post a video here of the Dimbleby lecture given by the author Sir Terry Pratchett read by Tony Robinson (of Blackadder fame) please? One of the most moving and convincing argument for assisted suicide.
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Old 31.03.2012, 21:24
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

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www.exit-geneve.ch

is the official site for the Romandie association of which I am a member.
There is an English section. Anybody can join, providing you are resident in Switzerland, irrespective of nationality.

I am a fighter, and should a terrible disease strike me, I would fight like hell I'm sure - but when and if the battle is lost, and the only prospect is loss of dignity, terrible pain or slow suffocation- I'd take the Exit - and feel very grateful that living here gives me that choice, if ever I needed it.
Exit really does take great care to ensure NO pressure is born to bear on the person requesting help- with several visits, and insisting on talking to the person alone. Any sign of hesitation or external pressure, and they will not go ahead. They have my utmost admiration. People here often say CH is stuck in the 50s - but sometimes they are way ahead. I am so glad I do not live in a country where the religious lobbies make the most important decisions for others.

Could somebody post a video here of the Dimbleby lecture given by the author Sir Terry Pratchett read by Tony Robinson (of Blackadder fame) please? One of the most moving and convincing argument for assisted suicide.
Here you go:
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Old 01.04.2012, 01:05
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

Just to give an impression about the status of assisted suicide in Swiss society: The last person to make headlines into this topic was Timo Konietzka (1938-2012). A former Bundesliga champion, coach for many successful Swiss football teams, highly respected person in CH and longtime Blick columnist, the number one yellow press paper in Switzerland. He decided to end his life after coming down with lethal bile ducts cancer. Blick accompanied the whole process in a very positive matter, from the beginning as he openly spoke about planning his death, until interviews with his widow afterwards. Even Bild, the german counterpart of Blick, only made positive headlines about his death, cited other celebs how they would do exactly the same way, if they were lethally sick and it would be allowed in Germany.

http://www.blick.ch/people-tv/schwei...d-id69000.html
http://www.blick.ch/sport/fussball/e...id1804580.html
http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/ko...9526.bild.html
http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/fr...7126.bild.html

So, endorsement of assisted suicide is not a thing of some strange people who are going undetected by society while using an elastic clause. Apparently, it's widespread.
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Old 01.04.2012, 12:55
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Re: Swiss assisted suicide stats - a first ever

It would be very positive if more foreigners living in CH joined Exit - the subs per year are very small, and they really do need more money to continue to fight the cause and support members,

Currently the two big issues Exit is fighting are:

a/ access to help members who request it in retirement/old peoples' Homes. Many such establishments do not allow Exit to come and support members under their roof- which means that if a member wants to Exit - they cannot unless someone takes them to live with them for a while so that Exit can help. My mother had been a member for 35 years - and really wanted 'out', blind and totally dependent, wheel-chair bound - but the OAP home refused. One of the reasons we moved to CH so I could take her home and help her. She died 3 weeks before we moved here, after 12 years of misery.

b/ the biggest challenge is that of senility or Alzheimers- as a person who wants Exit to support them, has to be of sound mind at the time of the deed. I feel that should a person join Exit when of sound mind, they should be able to describe clearly at what stage Exit should take over. This should be clear, and countersigned by a solicitor and doctor. Sadly now Exit members with early signs of senility/Alzheimers, but with a good quality of life, enjoying their family and friends despite their disability, have to Exit far too early, as they know waiting may well mean that they no longer have that choice.
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