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  #261  
Old 21.04.2012, 12:01
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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Do not give up, challenge any unwelcome behaviour, call the Police if necessary and make sure you have reference number from the Police. Process your complain through the company, if it is company, and if it is individual, do the same, complain to the Police in case of individual and get witness around, let the Police get the details of the third party for Court Summon.
You seem very well integrated already...
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  #262  
Old 22.04.2012, 11:10
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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You seem very well integrated already...
Assimilation ? I would speak about a rapid "Helvetisation"-process
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  #263  
Old 25.04.2012, 13:13
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

We came here as it offered a better quality of life for a family with a young child than the UK did. Who am I to then judge and tell the swiss theyre doing it wrong? I see better integration between comunities here than I did in the UK. Official programs etc to try and help people integrate. Can you blame the swiss for being suspicous of outsiders when 75% of people in the swiss penal system are auslanders?
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  #264  
Old 25.04.2012, 22:32
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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. Can you blame the swiss for being suspicous of outsiders when 75% of people in the swiss penal system are auslanders?
did you invent that number or did you friendly SVP propaganda machine provided it for you? Please inform yourself before posting...
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  #265  
Old 26.04.2012, 01:24
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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did you invent that number or did you friendly SVP propaganda machine provided it for you? Please inform yourself before posting...
It is obvious. Any judge here in case of most Swiss people can base his judgment on parents and other relatives of the person being domiciled in Switzerland, while he/she in case of many foreigners has to base the judgment on parents etc living somewhere abroad, and so has to act accordingly. Add to this that people guilty of crime usually are between 18 and 65 years old and not above 70 years old. Which means, in view of half of the CH-origin population being above 75, that most people in question MOST BE foreigners
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  #266  
Old 27.04.2012, 09:59
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

Your statement indicates you dont interact with people, you are just indoor. you have just made up the figure that suit your purpose. you need to move around and socialise, then come back and tell us something.
By the way, have you got the statistics of the figure that you have just made up. Huh! How can get the statistic of a made up figure. Be honest to yourself.
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We came here as it offered a better quality of life for a family with a young child than the UK did. Who am I to then judge and tell the swiss theyre doing it wrong? I see better integration between comunities here than I did in the UK. Official programs etc to try and help people integrate. Can you blame the swiss for being suspicous of outsiders when 75% of people in the swiss penal system are auslanders?
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  #267  
Old 27.04.2012, 10:06
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

Statistics from 2010
Verurteilungen für ein Verbrechen oder Vergehen (Convicted Criminals) 98'200

Nationalität
Schweizer 46.5% Ausländer 53.5%

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...te_zahlen.html

The official amount of foreigners living in Switzerland in 2010:

Ausländische Staatsangehörige (in %) 22.4
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...01/01/key.html

Last edited by olygirl; 27.04.2012 at 10:19.
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  #268  
Old 27.04.2012, 11:23
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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Statistics from 2010
Verurteilungen für ein Verbrechen oder Vergehen (Convicted Criminals) 98'200

Nationalität
Schweizer 46.5% Ausländer 53.5%

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...te_zahlen.html

The official amount of foreigners living in Switzerland in 2010:

Ausländische Staatsangehörige (in %) 22.4
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...01/01/key.html
That's crime statistics, it looks quite a bit different when you look at violent crime (higher % of foreigners)

He was almost right with the 75% when it comes to prison population though...

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard...story/22243843

It was 70,2% in 2009 and according to this source has not changed the last 10 years. It has to be noted, however, that many of these foreigners have no legal residence in Switzerland, so it is not 22% commiting 70% of crime which leads to imprisonment but more like 22% commiting about 35% of crime (rough estimation from my side), which differs vastly across nationalities. All these figures are available in official statistics and have been quoted in countless threads on EF, so do your own research before you accuse others of fabricating stats.
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  #269  
Old 27.04.2012, 11:42
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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That's crime statistics, it looks quite a bit different when you look at violent crime (higher % of foreigners)

He was almost right with the 75% when it comes to prison population though...

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard...story/22243843

It was 70,2% in 2009 and according to this source has not changed the last 10 years. It has to be noted, however, that many of these foreigners have no legal residence in Switzerland, so it is not 22% commiting 70% of crime which leads to imprisonment but more like 22% commiting about 35% of crime (rough estimation from my side), which differs vastly across nationalities. All these figures are available in official statistics and have been quoted in countless threads on EF, so do your own research before you accuse others of fabricating stats.

But then again, the prison population includes people who are presumed innocent (custody, where, due to the danger of fleeing, foreigners are vastly over-represented) and people who did not commit any crime in the normal sense of the word (extradition, no Swiss).
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  #270  
Old 27.04.2012, 17:07
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

Obviously, you are saying there are Illegal Auslander and Legal Auslander, i think the statistics results should be able to clarify/classify/distinguish between the two categories, not just Auslander.
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  #271  
Old 28.04.2012, 00:56
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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Statistics from 2010
Verurteilungen für ein Verbrechen oder Vergehen (Convicted Criminals) 98'200

Nationalität
Schweizer 46.5% Ausländer 53.5%

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...te_zahlen.html

The official amount of foreigners living in Switzerland in 2010:

Ausländische Staatsangehörige (in %) 22.4
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...01/01/key.html
But those statistics do not make a difference between residents and visitors, and so are worthless. Neither do these statistic relate the numbers to age groups. I am sure that in the age group of 66 to 100 the share of the foreigners will not be above the one of the CH nationals
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  #272  
Old 28.04.2012, 11:00
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

All these categories need to be put into consideration to have accurate statistic of a sensitive case like the above subject matter before going to the public. Otherwise, it will be difficult for the authority to adapt a way of reducing racism in this Country. You can emmagine, whether black or white auslanders, 70% - 72% are Criminals according to the statistic, obviously, in the eyes of the public, when come incontact with auslander, the chances of looking at that person as a Criminal is very high, this obviously brings hatered, and leads to racism. It is not untruth that wonderful Swiss are out there, but reading in-adequate article or figure would not be pleasant to them
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  #273  
Old 28.04.2012, 11:36
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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All these categories need to be put into consideration to have accurate statistic of a sensitive case like the above subject matter before going to the public. Otherwise, it will be difficult for the authority to adapt a way of reducing racism in this Country. You can emmagine, whether black or white auslanders, 70% - 72% are Criminals according to the statistic, obviously, in the eyes of the public, when come incontact with auslander, the chances of looking at that person as a Criminal is very high, this obviously brings hatered, and leads to racism. It is not untruth that wonderful Swiss are out there, but reading in-adequate article or figure would not be pleasant to them
you're reading the numbers wrong - the statistic is that 70% of criminals are Auslanders, not 70% of Auslanders are criminals.

from my personal view, I have only encountered 2 criminals here in Switzerland, after joining an exclusive club along the lake of folks to have their homes broken into. both were Auslander ohni ausweis, and both came from the same EU-8 country. there are very few things worse than racism, but I think there is also danger in ignoring the simple facts.
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  #274  
Old 28.04.2012, 20:50
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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All these categories need to be put into consideration to have accurate statistic of a sensitive case like the above subject matter before going to the public. Otherwise, it will be difficult for the authority to adapt a way of reducing racism in this Country. You can emmagine, whether black or white auslanders, 70% - 72% are Criminals according to the statistic, obviously, in the eyes of the public, when come incontact with auslander, the chances of looking at that person as a Criminal is very high, this obviously brings hatered, and leads to racism. It is not untruth that wonderful Swiss are out there, but reading in-adequate article or figure would not be pleasant to them
The authorities cannot do much, as racism "in this country" is rather less than in the neighbour country. What that EU official however suggested was that initiatives which are against international law or/and racist ought to be stopped BEFORE the voting and that the anti-racism laws were extended. The man actually mentioned that such things are difficult and complicated.

The 70% thing is wrong. A) not 70% of all foreigners are criminals but B) 70% of all "inmates" are foreigners. And C) this includes all the "Untersuchungs-Häftlinge" (investigation-prisoners) . The percentage among the convicted prisoners is FAR lower. If you then deduct all the "drug-courier-tourists" who are not residents and all those with sentences of less than a year, the percentrage drops even more

BUT, this nowhere in Europe is the reason for racism and xenophobia.

Racism ? Saharawis from the southern Wilajets of Algeria complain about the racism of the "real" Algerians against them, Nubians say the same about Egyptians in the mainland (Luxor to Alexandria) and nobody in Zürich would make such "jokes" which are quite common standard in Cairo. North Italians tell you that "Africa begins in Rome" and do not mean it with humour. People in Fez will tell you that those down in Marrakech are not real Moroccans but "nègres" . And look around inside Europe. There is lots of discrinimation, mostly if people "reveal" their origins by face and/or skin colour
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  #275  
Old 02.05.2012, 10:33
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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you're reading the numbers wrong - the statistic is that 70% of criminals are Auslanders, not 70% of Auslanders are criminals.
Which would, based on relative populations, make the crime rate roughly 10x higher for foreigners than for Swiss!

Tom
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  #276  
Old 02.05.2012, 13:04
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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Which would, based on relative populations, make the crime rate roughly 10x higher for foreigners than for Swiss!
...
No, you cannot say this.

The debate is quite old, and infact when the percentage lately was touching some 69%, it has been coming up again ...

It's not the criminal rate, but the inmate one (so all "minor" crimes, fine-sentences, or where is low risk of evasion are excluded).

And it's not linked with Swiss criminality (or criminality by Swiss residents, national Swiss or foreigners), but with criminality regarding somehow Swiss law infractions by people from all over the world Swiss justice can catch.

Furthermore the Swiss cannot violate laws regarding immigration foreigners maybe are jailed for,

could also be that national Swiss have better attorneys, lower penalties, know how to avoid conflicts or sentences, which might influence statistics.

Cheers
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  #277  
Old 02.05.2012, 13:19
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

Ask and you will be given.
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...en_zahlen.html
(especially "Freiheitsentzug - Insassenbestand am Stichtag")

and

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d.../19/03/03.html
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  #278  
Old 06.05.2012, 03:07
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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Ask and you will be given.
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...en_zahlen.html
(especially "Freiheitsentzug - Insassenbestand am Stichtag")

and

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d.../19/03/03.html
What surprises me, in spite of what I wrote above, is the heavy share of those in "Untersuchungshaft". Sure, a good part of them will either get a fine or a "bedingte Haftstrafe auf Bewährung", but the time in U-Haft is something most of them will never forget.They will have it in clear memory even four decades later.
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Old 06.05.2012, 15:35
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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you're reading the numbers wrong - the statistic is that 70% of criminals are Auslanders, not 70% of Auslanders are criminals.

from my personal view, I have only encountered 2 criminals here in Switzerland, after joining an exclusive club along the lake of folks to have their homes broken into. both were Auslander ohni ausweis, and both came from the same EU-8 country. there are very few things worse than racism, but I think there is also danger in ignoring the simple facts.
I was told that much of the crime-by-foreigners consists of robberies and theft by criminals who cross the border and escape back after the crime, counting on poor police coordination and difficulty of identification and extradition to get away with the crime.

As they say, you can rob one bank and get away with it. But to repeat the offence as a profession almost assures you will be caught eventually.

There are other issues: the inability to work of most asylum seekers and economic migrants means they are likely to resort to crime to survive. Asylum law was conceived out of guilt over the Holocaust and out of hostility to Communism and the Iron Curtain. It is unable to deal with massive flows of economic migrants enabled by modern communications. I remember the complaint of an immigration judge in the United States that he was well aware that only 15% of the asylum cases in front of him were genuine. The trouble was that he had no way of telling which 15% they were.

The Geneva 1951 Refugee Convention and the New York 1967 Protocol will be difficult to amend simply because in this postcolonial world there are now so many more sovereign states that will have a say. And few of them have any interest in making migration to the West more difficult. To some extent the issue of amending the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms or domestic law implementing it (as the UK would like to do) is similar. The ECHR has 40 signatories (out of, I think, 46 countries in Europe; the absentee that comes notoriously to mind is Belarus which I know of as the country with unpublished laws, violation of which can put you in prison) http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en.../005-1-bis.htm and the EU also has a role, mandating respect of the Convention by its member states.
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Old 06.05.2012, 17:26
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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I was told that much of the crime-by-foreigners consists of robberies and theft by criminals who cross the border and escape back after the crime, counting on poor police coordination and difficulty of identification and extradition to get away with the crime.

As they say, you can rob one bank and get away with it. But to repeat the offence as a profession almost assures you will be caught eventually.

There are other issues: the inability to work of most asylum seekers and economic migrants means they are likely to resort to crime to survive. Asylum law was conceived out of guilt over the Holocaust and out of hostility to Communism and the Iron Curtain. It is unable to deal with massive flows of economic migrants enabled by modern communications. I remember the complaint of an immigration judge in the United States that he was well aware that only 15% of the asylum cases in front of him were genuine. The trouble was that he had no way of telling which 15% they were.

The Geneva 1951 Refugee Convention and the New York 1967 Protocol will be difficult to amend simply because in this postcolonial world there are now so many more sovereign states that will have a say. And few of them have any interest in making migration to the West more difficult. To some extent the issue of amending the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms or domestic law implementing it (as the UK would like to do) is similar. The ECHR has 40 signatories (out of, I think, 46 countries in Europe; the absentee that comes notoriously to mind is Belarus which I know of as the country with unpublished laws, violation of which can put you in prison) http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en.../005-1-bis.htm and the EU also has a role, mandating respect of the Convention by its member states.
I suspect your first point is correct, which is one of the reasons for the public discussion about tightening up the borders. it is just simply not that hard for would-be-thieves to enter into the country without ever presenting papers at the border.

as to your second point - I don't think anyone will ever satisfactorily prove a direct causal relationship between poverty and crime, despite what Dickens might have written all those years ago.
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