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  #101  
Old 31.03.2012, 11:39
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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I know many Germans who are shocked about medical standard in Switzerland and about Swiss corny teeth ...
The old joke was that the teeth of Germans cannot be corny, as they are artificial. Not a joke is that shops in Germany sell a lot of products for artificial teeth. THIS may be subject to change, but still was as stated in the 90ies and later. Public opinion in Switzerland is against artificial teeth, and you are encouraged to get ahead with your real teeth, even when they look like a mountain chain

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  #102  
Old 31.03.2012, 12:16
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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Sorry...but the foreigners HAVE taken over the country...ie England. It has gotten totally out of control. Even recently they stated that "they are going to curb integration and let it only those able to work...blah...blah...blah...a bit too late though. Read up on Londinistan. It isn't that a country should not allow integration, but they must be careful who they let in. GB had no discretion and now they have a welfare state.

No place is perfect, but whatever Switzerland is doing, it is working and they don't need a bunch of outsiders trying to tell them how to spoil it.

You took the analogy waaaaay out of context. It is not about free or not free. The idea is that a country has a right to refuse to not let people inside their borders i.e. home, just as an individual has a right not to let someone in their home. Is your home open to anyone who wants to come in? Do you give everybody a key? You have to use discretion.

The comparison to GB is for wisdom purposes only: Switzerland does not need to make the same immigration mistakes that GB has. It is a catastrophe and a bit too little too late.

It's as if the critics want to say: "Come on Switzerland, really...it doesn't hurt too bad. See we ruined our countries, but look, we are getting through it and you can do the same. Now come on and turn Switzerland into a welfare state, hellhole, believe us the process is not so painful...lol"

Switzerland must stand their ground...
look buddy, you have a lot of immigrants in the UK because you used to have colonies all over the world. your ancestors strapped them of their wealth and freedom, and now its payback time, you need to take care of the poor and uneducated immigrants. REMEMBER that any native English person born and raised in UK has benefited immensely from the colonial past of the UK, so please stop whining will ya?
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  #103  
Old 31.03.2012, 12:18
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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Actually, this is my perception as well: that the anti-foreigner sentiment is more prevalent and that this sort of behavior happens more in the German-speaking part (this side of the Rösti Graben) than in the Romandie or in Ticino.
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Reality check: Ticino over the years was among the most xenophobe / anti-EU Cantons in federal votes. The most extreme right-wing and extreme xenophobe parties exist in tradiionally LEFT-wing Geneva. The cities of Winterthur, Zürich, Luzern, Basel and Bern refused things like the Minaret-Ban. This shows that it is not a language-border thing but a town-countryside matter. For comparison, Geneva is a city-state and Vaud and Neuchâtel are cantons dominated by small cities and sizeable towns


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Just a small example, I speak French. Whenever I visit the Romandie, I communicate exclusively in French -- in the shops, restaurants, etc. I understand the locals and they understand me. No problems there.
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The various dialects/accents of the Romandie are (still) fairly close to the ruling Parisian French.


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Here, in Zurich, however, the language frustrates me to no end. I studied and speak (decent) Hochdeutsch, and it's still a work in progress. But many of the locals I have encountered do not want to speak Hochdeutsch, even though it's clear I don't understand their dialect. (I've also tried speaking French -- in an effort to stick with a national language -- but apart from the older generations of Swiss people, nobody wants to speak French. They'd rather speak English.) Some people have told me outright that they hate Germans and would rather speak English than Hochdeutsch.
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WHY do you not understand dialects in Switzerland, Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria ? Sure, the dialects here around differ considerably from Standard-German, but people from Frankfurt understand Züritüütsch as well as Zürcher understand Frankfurterisch. And Texans expect that you understand them as well. Just as do other English-speakers.
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Do not forget that "German" is not a single language but rather a slightly unified conglomerate of German languages of some Germanic tribes

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Also, the same former co-workers who ridiculed my Yugoslavian co-worker harassed me because I don't speak Schwyzerdeutsch, and how dare I live in this country and NOT speak Schwyzerdeutsch. They even flat out refused to speak Hochdeutsch with me and told me that they would ONLY speak Schwyzerdeutsch. WTF???
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I just wonder how his Schwizertüütsch sounds ! HIS risk would possibly be that I would switch from Schwizertüütsch to Standard German when speaking with him

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Beautiful post...your consensus is quite accurate as well. A part of Britain is called Londonistan due to their uncontrolled immigration. Its turning into a hellhole and they don't know what to do about it.
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I do not believe that the problems in London are due to immigration. Immigrants rather have helped London, but could not stop the decline of the Capital of the British Empire. I hope, most English are honest enough to accept that the problem is home-made

Immigration in Britain since about 1970 is NOT "UNlimited" but lmited, many limiatations put in place by Mrs Thatcher. Tamils came to Switzerland out of the misery of civil war on their "Island in the Sun" after Britain limited the possibilities of them to immigrate there. I think, it was quite a good deal for Switzerland. In case of the war-torn ex-Yugoslavia, it was not half as good

Last edited by Wollishofener; 31.03.2012 at 12:49.
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  #104  
Old 31.03.2012, 12:33
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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the % figures with respect to the number of foreigners living in Switzerland are often quoted out of context. a significant number of those "foreigners" have been living in Switzerland for 2 and sometimes 3 generations, they have simply never applied for a Swiss passport. I think, in fact, that roughly 20% of those "foreigners" were born in Switzerland.

the number of "new immigrants" coming to Switzerland every year is actually quite small.
A) even if you deduct the 25% of CH born people from the "foreigners" the number per capita is among the top in Europe and much higher than in Germany and several times as high as in Italy
B) the number of immigrants at present is really low, and not comparable to the numbers of the 1950ies and 60ies and 70ies. There is no mass-immigration, except in the skulls of the Blocherites
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  #105  
Old 31.03.2012, 12:35
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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Sorry...but the foreigners HAVE taken over the country...ie England. It has gotten totally out of control. Even recently they stated that "they are going to curb integration and let it only those able to work...blah...blah...blah...a bit too late though. Read up on Londinistan. It isn't that a country should not allow integration, but they must be careful who they let in. GB had no discretion and now they have a welfare state.
...
I don't know exactly, but what I understand is that Britain used to be a public welfare state until Maggie Thatcher smashed it. Now in comparisn to other European countries GB is a quite americanized neocon and general living standard in a direct confrontation to F, D, I etc. is far lower.

My point is that of course in huge cities like London you have social problems (like you have in Paris, Madrid, Marseille, NY or I don't know where else, but very unlike Switzerland, that does not have big cities).

But London, in the contrary to the rest of the country, is a town with a very high average income,

so something is wrong with your claim that foreigners had taken over the country ruining it, if most immigrants live in the big cities.

So Britain's problem is social and institutional instead of cultural and ethnical.


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No place is perfect, but whatever Switzerland is doing, it is working and they don't need a bunch of outsiders trying to tell them how to spoil it.
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Well, we agree on the point that CH all in all, summa summarum works maybe not great but it works. If it is despite immigration or because of immigration is another point, but it works with immigration as a fact.


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You took the analogy waaaaay out of context. It is not about free or not free. The idea is that a country has a right to refuse to not let people inside their borders i.e. home, just as an individual has a right not to let someone in their home. Is your home open to anyone who wants to come in? Do you give everybody a key? You have to use discretion.
...
A home is a home, a country is a country, and nationality has far little to do with it.

Anyway CH has a relatively high portion of immigrants, is working not the worst, has also some restriction to non-EU and is not really menaced by social riots or civil war. So I do not see why and where you see a need for an alarm.


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It's as if the critics want to say: "Come on Switzerland, really...it doesn't hurt too bad. See we ruined our countries, but look, we are getting through it and you can do the same. Now come on and turn Switzerland into a welfare state, hellhole, believe us the process is not so painful...lol"

Switzerland must stand their ground...
But Switzerland has always been a welfare state infact, hasn't it?
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  #106  
Old 31.03.2012, 12:43
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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even if you deduct the 25% of CH born people from the "foreigners" the number per capita is among the top in Europe and much higher than in Germany and several times as high as in Italy
I don't know the numbers for other Euro countries. in Switzerland, though, I think the number of "foreigners" who would qualify for a Swiss passport if they wanted one generally hovers around 50% of the total "foreigner" population.

it's hard for me to judge as a gringo, of course, since 100% of the citizens of my native country are immigrants, no matter how much some of the folks back in the States try to deny it.

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  #107  
Old 31.03.2012, 12:43
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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This is EXACTLY what I've experienced and concluded as well.

I think between the bilateral treaties allowing more EU citizens and others to live and work here, as well as global companies setting up shop here and hiring professionals from abroad, young Swiss workers now have to compete with foreigners for jobs, and that raises the bar. I know that many of them are having a harder time getting internships, jobs and undoubtedly blame the foreigners for their plight. Whereas their parents and grandparents did not have to deal with any of this. So they feel anxious and insecure (understandably) about their future, and, in their minds, WE are the problem. Solution: get rid of all of us, and they can have their country back.
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A) Global companies who set up shop here created thousands of jobs for locals, who otherwise had had to go abroad
B) Swiss workers now profit from far more opportunities and better ones than available in the past
C) companies still hunt for apprentices as there are more places around than applicants
D) nobody is blaming anybody for a "plight". The numbers of jobless people are at an all-time low
E) Their grandparents had to go abroad, their parents found jobs inside the country, and the young now have it easier than ever ... as late as in the 70ies, CH people emigrated to the United Kingdom to find work and career
F) If some of them feel insecure and/or anxious, they might check up their own positions. If in trouble they might check up those EMSchemie subsidiaries right across the border in Austria and Germany !

Sorry, but you mix-up Blocherite propaganda with actual realities
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  #108  
Old 31.03.2012, 12:56
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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I do not believe that the problems in London are due to immigration. Immigrants rather have helped London, but could not stop the decline of the Capital of the British Empire. I hope, most English are honest enough to accept that the problem is home-made
In what way has London declined, and what exactly have immigrants done to stop that supposed decline?

The biggest problem that I can see in London is the dizzy height to which real estate prices have risen. What have immigrants done to stem that?
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  #109  
Old 31.03.2012, 12:58
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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I don't know the numbers for other Euro countries. in Switzerland, though, I think the number of "foreigners" who would qualify for a Swiss passport if they wanted one generally hovers around 50% of the total "foreigner" population.

it's hard for me to judge as a gringo, of course, since 100% of the citizens of my native country are immigrants, no matter how much some of the folks back in the States try to deny it.

As a result of the restrictive laws here (long years until being entitled to get CH citizenship, absurdly high costs, etc) only about 25% upto 27% of the non-CH-foreigners are entitled to request citizenship
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  #110  
Old 31.03.2012, 13:02
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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Immigration in Britain since about 1970 is NOT "UNlimited" but lmited, many limiatations put in place by Mrs Thatcher. Tamils came to Switzerland out of the misery of civil war on their "Island in the Sun" after Britain limited the possibilities of them to immigrate there. I think, it was quite a good deal for Switzerland. In case of the war-torn ex-Yugoslavia, it was not half as good
Reality check. Despite her grandstanding to look good in the face of the right wing of her own party, in real numbers Mrs Thatcher let in more immigrants than any previous government.
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  #111  
Old 31.03.2012, 13:05
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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In what way has London declined, and what exactly have immigrants done to stop that supposed decline?

The biggest problem that I can see in London is the dizzy height to which real estate prices have risen. What have immigrants done to stem that?
A) I doubt that London HAS declined but it is what Londoners complain about
B) Immigrants have opened up new companies, new restaurants and brought new things to London
B2) it is comparable with Paris. Both Londoners and Parisians busily complain about things getting worse (of course due to those immigrants) while both simply is not the case
C) the immigrants by average are younger than the "natives" and so pay for the social-rents of the retired
C2) I do not like the ex-Yugo accent of speaking CH-German, but who will pay my AHV in a no longer so distant future
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  #112  
Old 31.03.2012, 13:11
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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look buddy, you have a lot of immigrants in the UK because you used to have colonies all over the world. your ancestors strapped them of their wealth and freedom, and now its payback time, you need to take care of the poor and uneducated immigrants. REMEMBER that any native English person born and raised in UK has benefited immensely from the colonial past of the UK, so please stop whining will ya?
Really? How exactly did the children who went down the mines and worked the mills while their fathers went to die as cannon fodder in some pointless wars benefit from colonies? Last time I checked it was only the top couple of percent who benefitted. And those top couple of percent don't live in culturally mixed areas but in pretty parts of the Chilterns.

And isn't it very racist of you to imply that multiculturalism and immigration should be a punishment for the past?
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  #113  
Old 31.03.2012, 13:19
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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Europe has an abundance of young folks who are even worse than the old people. You probably have never encountered a gang of Swiss teenagers shouting at you to get out of their country...Last survey I read about integration in Switzerland showed that the most interested persons in answering the questions re. integration of foreigners were people between 16-24 years of age. The results being unfavourable to foreigners make me think that actually, the young lads are even more xenophobic than their grannies, a thing confirmed by my own experiences. Don't think about young as in a young students, or people related to academics, the pool is much larger. They have a sense of entitlement which has been cultivated by the parents, out of their own frustrations (what I didn't have my child should have), and as the kids are the new investments of today society. They hear conversations at home but they don't have a filter for their own and rather take everything literally.
Thankfully, no, but I have experienced 6yo kids shunning my daughter on the playground for not speaking Swiss German. Kids that young aren't born like that; they're taught.
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  #114  
Old 31.03.2012, 13:24
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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Reality check. Despite her grandstanding to look good in the face of the right wing of her own party, in real numbers Mrs Thatcher let in more immigrants than any previous government.
I think that she had no other choice. But to yield to the real world. And to accept that Britain like other former colonial powers also had/has some liabilities out of those times. I remember holidays in Northern Cyprus where I spoke locals and realized that practically everybody was a UK passport holder. Unlike their Greek Cyprus counterparts they quite obviously had not developed too much confidence in either "all-Cyprus" or "TK-Cyprus", It to me is obvious that the situation is obvious in other parts of the British Empire

I still remember a holiday trip to Morocco when I was two hours too early at Tangiers Airport and then started to fill out the "fiches d'immigration" of Moroccans who were happy to meet somebody able to do it. I enquired about the name and simply used MY transliteration -- I asked about the address and heard that it was near the Mosque and so wrote down "Rue de la Mosque" .... or that it was right in the centre of town and so wrote down "Rue du Centre" --- I asked about other things like date of birth "oh it is somehow in mid 1957" and so wrote down "15 juin 1957". About 100 chaps waved at me smilingly when getting to their plane to Marseille
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  #115  
Old 31.03.2012, 13:24
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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D) nobody is blaming anybody for a "plight". The numbers of jobless people are at an all-time low
Pardon me? When did your "all-time" begin? For decades, the unemployment rates usually weresoemwhere around 1% or even substantially below, last time in 1990 (0.5%).

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E) Their grandparents had to go abroad, their parents found jobs inside the country, and the young now have it easier than ever ... as late as in the 70ies, CH people emigrated to the United Kingdom to find work and career
Yeah, a few emigrated, while, at the same time, hundreds of thousands had to be imported, some of them to do the jobs the emigrants had left behind plus many others to do the jobs the emigrants hadn't wanted to do. Emigrating was a joice for a few, not a necessity to many.
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  #116  
Old 31.03.2012, 13:26
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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WTH are all these posh Swedish women doing in Helsinki? I'm surprised they even bothered to leave Östermalm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96stermalm

Just goes to show that money doesn't buy open-mindedness and enlightenment. Even the upper classes aren't immune from xenophobia and intolerance.



I have no doubts about what you're saying, and would agree it's a problem, but, interestingly, most of the old folks I've met here have been some of the nicest people anywhere. Somehow they've come across as more open-minded, more cosmopolitan and more tolerant of foreigners than many (but not all) of the younger people I've met.

Of course, I haven't spent much time in the small towns further away from greater Zurich, so it could be an entirely different story elsewhere.
Those Swedish posh women probably belong to the 6% Swedish minority Finland has, Swedish being the second official language. Some of them still believe they are part of the old empire and the Finns are some sort of second class peasants, who, without the civilization the Swedes brought, wouldn't be so better off today. Well, it's the old neighbourly rivalry thing (this is from the mouth of my friends)

Anyways, I totally agree about some old folks here, they are really charming. Open-minded, with a sense of humour and with a surprinsing lust for communicating with about everyone.
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  #117  
Old 31.03.2012, 13:28
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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WTH are all these posh Swedish women doing in Helsinki? I'm surprised they even bothered to leave Östermalm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96stermalm
Well...Finland used to be part of Sweden and....(and Swedish is also an official language in Finland).

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Just goes to show that money doesn't buy open-mindedness and enlightenment. Even the upper classes aren't immune from xenophobia and intolerance.
Indeed not, but Finland is also a country where only 2% of the population isn't Finnish and they are rather strict about immigration policies. There was a big furor in recent years over the Somalis who were allowed in, who integrated, went to schools, etc. only to never find work after graduating from university.

With the rise of parties like the SVP and others like them, as the eurocrisis progresses (and, say, immigrant nut jobs going on shooting sprees in France), it certainly has the potential to polarize the natives into doing rash things.

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I have no doubts about what you're saying, and would agree it's a problem, but, interestingly, most of the old folks I've met here have been some of the nicest people anywhere. Somehow they've come across as more open-minded, more cosmopolitan and more tolerant of foreigners than many (but not all) of the younger people I've met.

Of course, I haven't spent much time in the small towns further away from greater Zurich, so it could be an entirely different story elsewhere.
My sample is too small, but I will admit the skinheads did seem to be in abundance.
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  #118  
Old 31.03.2012, 14:20
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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Sorry, but you mix-up Blocherite propaganda with actual realities
No, I am not mixing anything up. Between the attitudes towards foreigners I've personally witnessed and been on the receiving end of, and what Swiss and other expat friends have told me as well as the efforts by the SVP and their allies to chip away at/ water down the bi-lateral treaties and now this Masseneinwanderung Referendumm, and articles like the one below, the situation speaks for itself.

http://www.handelszeitung.ch/unterne...monats-migrant

It is on the basis of all of the above that I wrote that post.

Last edited by latigresse; 31.03.2012 at 14:50.
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Old 31.03.2012, 14:51
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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D) nobody is blaming anybody for a "plight". The numbers of jobless people are at an all-time low
I sometimes have to wonder where you get your data from. Between 1980 to 1990, thats 10 years, the PEAK unemployment rate was 1.15%. In 1992 it went to 2.5%.

Youth unemployment rate is hovering close to 21 year highs at 8.5% (8.8% 2005). In 1990 before the recession it was at 3.2%. I consider the youth unemployment rate to be quite important.

Relative unemployment is not high when compared to other countries, but hardly 'all time lows'

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B) 70ies. There is no mass-immigration, except in the skulls of the Blocherites
Well in 1974 to 1979. There was a negative immigration rate in Switzerland. i.e. More people leaving than coming - a net 163K people left.
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Old 31.03.2012, 19:23
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Re: Racism rife in Switzerland: human rights chief

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I sometimes have to wonder where you get your data from. Between 1980 to 1990, thats 10 years, the PEAK unemployment rate was 1.15%. In 1992 it went to 2.5%.

Youth unemployment rate is hovering close to 21 year highs at 8.5% (8.8% 2005). In 1990 before the recession it was at 3.2%. I consider the youth unemployment rate to be quite important.

Relative unemployment is not high when compared to other countries, but hardly 'all time lows'



Well in 1974 to 1979. There was a negative immigration rate in Switzerland. i.e. More people leaving than coming - a net 163K people left.
Lex, please note that anything that might even faintly indicate that just a few of the SVP's points might partly be right simply is not perceived by Wolli. He sure is a good chap, but his eyesight sometimes is a bit poor. It can't be his memory, because he remembers accurately and verifiably how much he paid for that pair of socks in Austin, TX on Sept. 12, 1974 at 11:27 Central Time, so it must be selective perception on the visual side, ak.a. political blindness in one eye.
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