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  #81  
Old 21.04.2012, 11:27
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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The people from the Balkans came years ago as refugees and later brought their families in. There are hardly any people coming in from that region now. Not sure about the Latin Americans - there's a tiny Brazilian community in Switzerland that came in through the quota system - other than that I really don't ever see anyone here from that region.

As for the Germans: it's the chicken and the egg problem. Jobs (e.g. In the service sector, at the Universities etc.) are created because of the influx of people. These are jobs, however, the Swiss people could probably do without as they just add additional strain on the infrastructure and lead to the worrisome fact that some Swiss are soon to be minorities in their own communities.
There are towns where foreigners make up more than 60% of the population, and part-towns where foreigners make up more than 70% . There are people like Dr Abdel-Aziz (SP, Glattbrugg) who encourage foreigners to become CH-nationals, to get the town population politically integrated. He already succeeded in reducing the power of the SVP to an acceptable level. And of course improving the position of his own party !
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  #82  
Old 21.04.2012, 13:25
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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However, applying the cap to Eastern Europe is somewhat arbitrary and stupid when the problem lies elsewhere.
Peter
Applying the cap to the countries chosen was the only way available. Swiss farmers of course will try to replace the "missing" East Europeans by Spaniards and Greeks, as they NEED agricultural workers in the season


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Why? Immigration from non-EU countries is negligible compared to EU-immigration.
Peter
A) Immigration from EU-countries (of today) was massive in the 1950ies and 60ies, and has become negligable by comparison in the meantime
B) there are sizeable Maghrebi, Egyptian and Lebanese communities in Switzerland, and also the Indian and SriLankan (Tamil) communities are very sizeable. The LEGAL route chosen by many people from countries like the Arab countries and India is to take work at an international hotel company or an airline, and then get an "offshore" job (stagiaire etc) in Switzerland, stay as long as possible and when having the required position, change the job and get employment at a Swiss company.
B-2) I over the years was asked by people in places like Algiers, Tunis, Cairo and Beirut, how they might "manage it" and the route above was/is what I recommend. Interestingly enough I over the years here in Zürich was greeted by some people I had met "overthere". And I know quite many in the aviation industry who came in exactly that way.
C) The Tamils came in as refugees during the long war in Sri Lanka, just like many Lebanese. While the Lebanese as Whites are not facing racism, the Tamils may meet problems on that basis, but according to their CH-leaders not in a drastic way. Both communities have become integrated, well integrated, and are to stay.
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  #83  
Old 21.04.2012, 13:39
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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I for one have always supported non-EU restrictions. Somehow geniuses from Bern have not come-up with a way to do so.
A) Why ? non-EU-ers are discriminated against not least as CH had to stiffen the laws on demand from the EU already, and also, in daily life I mean, because many non-EU-ers tend to often have "non-European faces". So that the status-quo is already sickening enough
B) The "geniuses in Bern" wanted to work on the basis of existing laws and regulations and treaties. And chose a way which united leftwingers and rightwingers into a kind of coalition, and in a way which forces the SVP to DEFEND the Bilaterals, which is a most exotic situation Real experts, headed by that political genius Mrs Simonetta Sommaruga.
B-2) Had one of the rightwing-predecessors in the Federal Justice Ministry done anything thelike, there would have been a storm of fury from the leftwings of FDP+CVP to the far left, and the media would have gone beserk. Now, it was nicely accepted by all --- making the whole thing a real "Geniestreich"
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  #84  
Old 21.04.2012, 13:40
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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Applying the cap to the countries chosen was the only way available. Swiss farmers of course will try to replace the "missing" East Europeans by Spaniards and Greeks, as they NEED agricultural workers in the season.
Yeah, maybe in an ideal world working according to a master plan, in reality I don't think Spaniards or even the Greeks will ever come here to take up jobs in agriculture, as they heavily import themselves workers for the same type of jobs.

Btw, last time when I passed by a farm the only language I heard, apart from Swiss German of course, was..Polish.
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  #85  
Old 21.04.2012, 14:32
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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A) Immigration from EU-countries (of today) was massive in the 1950ies and 60ies, and has become negligable by comparison in the meantime
B) there are sizeable Maghrebi, Egyptian and Lebanese communities in Switzerland, and also the Indian and SriLankan (Tamil) communities are very sizeable. The LEGAL route chosen by many people from countries like the Arab countries and India is to take work at an international hotel company or an airline, and then get an "offshore" job (stagiaire etc) in Switzerland, stay as long as possible and when having the required position, change the job and get employment at a Swiss company.
B-2) I over the years was asked by people in places like Algiers, Tunis, Cairo and Beirut, how they might "manage it" and the route above was/is what I recommend. Interestingly enough I over the years here in Zürich was greeted by some people I had met "overthere". And I know quite many in the aviation industry who came in exactly that way.
C) The Tamils came in as refugees during the long war in Sri Lanka, just like many Lebanese. While the Lebanese as Whites are not facing racism, the Tamils may meet problems on that basis, but according to their CH-leaders not in a drastic way. Both communities have become integrated, well integrated, and are to stay.
Yes, there are lots of people from Sri Lanka, Lebanon, Egypt etc. - the fact is, however, none of these were pushing into Switzerland at rates of 120'000+ per year. Also, by far most people coming from Germany now already had decent jobs and made a very good living back home.
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  #86  
Old 21.04.2012, 14:40
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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Yeah, maybe in an ideal world working according to a master plan, in reality I don't think Spaniards or even the Greeks will ever come here to take up jobs in agriculture, as they heavily import themselves workers for the same type of jobs.

Btw, last time when I passed by a farm the only language I heard, apart from Swiss German of course, was..Polish.
Indeed, a farm I visit often in Zürich has over 60% of the staff as Polish, some of them work very long hours.
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  #87  
Old 21.04.2012, 15:30
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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Yeah, maybe in an ideal world working according to a master plan, in reality I don't think Spaniards or even the Greeks will ever come here to take up jobs in agriculture, as they heavily import themselves workers for the same type of jobs. Btw, last time when I passed by a farm the only language I heard, apart from Swiss German of course, was..Polish.
Both countries now have high unemployment rates. In Spain possibly slowly sinking, but in Greece possibly still increasing. And yes, a farmer rep here in Switzerland complained saying that the farmers depend on the East European seasonal workers, most of the Poles, and now will be in trouble. Which means that they have to check up with "old EU countries" for replacement

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Yes, there are lots of people from Sri Lanka, Lebanon, Egypt etc. - the fact is, however, none of these were pushing into Switzerland at rates of 120'000+ per year. Also, by far most people coming from Germany now already had decent jobs and made a very good living back home.
Let's look at the Germans
> hospitals needed more doctors with a good command of German. Where to go to ?
> the S-Bahn needed more train-drivers with a good command of German. Where to go to ?
> universities needed lecturers with a good command of German. Where to go for ?
> people wanted immigrants for a variety of jobs who understand also complicated written texts and can integrate/assimilate easily. Where to go for ?
> people wanted immigrants who are punctual, law-abiding, not noisy, and used to a heavily regulated society. Where to go for ?
> everybody complained that "diä Usländer wänd nöd Tüütsch lärne". Where to go for people who did not have to learn anything ?
> everybody wanted immigrants who are not impressed by not being too popular among the locals. Where to go to ?
--
The Germans are CH-compatible for 96% .

PS: just forgot to mention a reason why Germans so much like to get to Switzerland. Simply listen to THIS video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqAKJ...eature=related
where after 31 seconds you can see a self-revealing map, after 1 min + 50 seconds a full reference to Switzerland, after 2 mins + 7 seconds an obvious map and after 2 mins + 58 seconds a very obvious map again !!

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  #88  
Old 21.04.2012, 16:23
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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> hospitals needed more doctors with a good command of German. Where to go to ?
> the S-Bahn needed more train-drivers with a good command of German. Where to go to ?
> universities needed lecturers with a good command of German. Where to go for ?
Why do the hospitals need more doctors?
Why does the S-Bahn need more train-drivers?
Why do universities need more lecturers (although the latter is up for debate)?

Exactly - because immigration-related population growth is so massive now that the Swiss work-pool can't cope with the problem anymore. As I said further up: it's the chicken and egg problem. It's clear that this can't go on for much longer.
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  #89  
Old 21.04.2012, 21:39
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

This situation is personally touching me. I have started working in April (middle management level in big corp) and I am permit B holder. Though my wife and daughter are coming in May (technically on 30th of April).
Will they be able to get perm B as well?

We are from Poland.
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  #90  
Old 21.04.2012, 21:54
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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This situation is personally touching me. I have started working in April (middle management level in big corp) and I am permit B holder. Though my wife and daughter are coming in May (technically on 30th of April).
Will they be able to get perm B as well?

We are from Poland.
Have a look at the thread over in the permits/visas/government subforum: EU8 residence and work permit ( post 01.05.2012 )

This thread here is for a political discussion of the matter.
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  #91  
Old 21.04.2012, 22:54
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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Why do the hospitals need more doctors?
Why does the S-Bahn need more train-drivers?
Why do universities need more lecturers (although the latter is up for debate)?

Exactly - because immigration-related population growth is so massive now that the Swiss work-pool can't cope with the problem anymore. As I said further up: it's the chicken and egg problem. It's clear that this can't go on for much longer.
Do you have any numbers to support your proposition?

I do not see, for example, a 1% increase in population per year due to immigration driving the need for so many additional doctors, train drivers, etc?
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  #92  
Old 21.04.2012, 23:14
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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I do not see, for example, a 1% increase in population per year due to immigration driving the need for so many additional doctors, train drivers, etc?
It's 1.5% - and that excludes the very large number of people from surrounding countries that work in Switzerland, use the infrastructure (trains, hospitals etc.) but live in Germany, France etc. - also, the 120'000 / 1.5% per year are only Germans. Add another 30'000 French, Italians, Austrians + around 25'000 refugees from non-EU countries. I had the "pleasure" to ride the train from Kreuzlingen to Zurich on a daily basis - that train is chock full of people commuting from Constance to Zurich - I'd say it's used about 50-60% by Germans who work here but live in Germany.

I've been an SP voter all my adult life and have been very open to immigration up until a couple of years ago. Right now, I live in a community together with 49% Germans - go ahead and tell me that's normal. What would Brits say if they found that half of London's population consists of Germans? I simply don't feel comfortable here anymore. Apart from that, this also causes some serious issues in terms of direct democracy. Half of the population in my town isn't allowed to vote and won't participate in communal politics, either. There's absolutely zero integration going on - heck, most don't even register their cars here and evade road tax but make up half of the traffic here. I know several families on my street alone who send their kids to German schools because they don't want them speak Swiss German - they're willing to accept inferior education for their kids so they can keep to themselves.
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  #93  
Old 21.04.2012, 23:42
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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It's 1.5% - and that excludes the very large number of people from surrounding countries that work in Switzerland, use the infrastructure (trains, hospitals etc.) but live in Germany, France etc. - also, the 120'000 / 1.5% per year are only Germans. Add another 30'000 French, Italians, Austrians + around 25'000 refugees from non-EU countries. I had the "pleasure" to ride the train from Kreuzlingen to Zurich on a daily basis - that train is chock full of people commuting from Constance to Zurich - I'd say it's used about 50-60% by Germans who work here but live in Germany.

I've been an SP voter all my adult life and have been very open to immigration up until a couple of years ago. Right now, I live in a community together with 49% Germans - go ahead and tell me that's normal. What would Brits say if they found that half of London's population consists of Germans? I simply don't feel comfortable here anymore. Apart from that, this also causes some serious issues in terms of direct democracy. Half of the population in my town isn't allowed to vote and won't participate in communal politics, either. There's absolutely zero integration going on - heck, most don't even register their cars here and evade road tax but make up half of the traffic here. I know several families on my street alone who send their kids to German schools because they don't want them speak Swiss German - they're willing to accept inferior education for their kids so they can keep to themselves.
I asked if you had any numbers to support your statement but I did not mean for you to invent huge numbers. I meant do you have any official numbers??
According to Simonetta Sommaruga between 2002 and 2011 an average of 38'000 EU people moved annually to CH which makes your 150,000 number look a but ridiculous - see link;
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/24206250

As you say there are many cross border workers but I do not see they create much of a workload in Switzerland for schools, colleges & hospitals; as you yourself write these cross border workers usually use local facilities in their neighborhood.
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Old 21.04.2012, 23:51
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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According to Simonetta Sommaruga between 2002 and 2011 an average of 38'000 EU people moved annually to CH which makes your 150,000 number look a but ridiculous - see link;
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/24206250
I have the strong feeling that you didn't really read the article you were just referring to: It's about Sommaruga's understating the numbers massively. "Dadurch dass die Justizministerin den Durchschnitt der letzten 10 Jahre beizog, zeichnet sie – gewollt oder ungewollt – ein geschöntes Bild der Situation. Sie «vergass» zu erwähnen, dass die volle Personenfreizügigkeit mit den westeuropäischen EU-Ländern erst seit dem 1. Juni 2007 in Kraft ist." "Ein Beispiel: Im vergangenen Jahr sind insgesamt 142'471 Personen in die Schweiz eingewandert"

Total number for last year: 142'471 people. This year, 25'000 people came in during January and February alone, pushing the estimate for 2012 to around 150'000.

Anyway - you just gave me the numbers you were asking me to provide yourself. Also, it's very popular for cross-border commuters to use medical services in Switzerland, as I just found out with my wife spending a week in hospital after her c-section.

Peter
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  #95  
Old 22.04.2012, 01:02
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At a total fertility rate of 1.5, in two generations the popularion of CH would drop by half. Around 1% yearly is actually what is needed to keep it stable.
I think no western, wellfare country, could survive with the social benefits in such a steep population decline.
Switzerland has chosen to let the immigrants in, while hating them at the same time.
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Old 22.04.2012, 01:24
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Hi Daviz, this a double sword discussion, and you known it well.
Healthcare - surely you known that the young persons are subsidizing the premiums for children and elderly, don't you?
Now, all the folks on the L permit - they pay all the taxes and social contributions w/o using them. And they're modern, disposable slave workers, as the state has no obligation towards them - you've worn out - get lost. Who was crying foul after the quotas reenacting? Poor verwöhnte farmers, of course. No slave labor, OMG, who will get his hands dirty now? Portugal?

Why the heck people don't integrate? how should they dare, if in order to qualify to vote they have to spend their lifetime here and please the commune.
Sure, this not the most important reason, for sure. Maybe it is the Swiss local crappy politics at fault? Look at Birr-Lupfig AG and its great Wyde district or whatever is this ghetto block called. Do something to encourage people to settle somewhere else? Promote the societies for cheaper housing for everyone, and not just Swiss, then maybe there will be fewer ghettos?
There ain't free/subsidized language lessons offered, unless someone lands on unemployment.
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Old 22.04.2012, 02:48
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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Why do the hospitals need more doctors?
Why does the S-Bahn need more train-drivers?
Why do universities need more lecturers (although the latter is up for debate)?

Exactly - because immigration-related population growth is so massive now that the Swiss work-pool can't cope with the problem anymore. As I said further up: it's the chicken and egg problem. It's clear that this can't go on for much longer.
> the hospitals need more doctors because people get older and so need more medical care, and because more people survive things like cancer, which means what was a small thing just in 1990 (oncology) is now a big section with two chief doctores and a dozen other doctors (just one example) > the S-Bahn has been built up dramatically over the past 20 years. Sorry, but the population did not treble in this time, while the services of the S-Bahn did. > I clearly referred to why the Germans ARE the preferred immigrants
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Old 22.04.2012, 02:58
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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At a total fertility rate of 1.5, in two generations the popularion of CH would drop by half. Around 1% yearly is actually what is needed to keep it stable.
I think no western, wellfare country, could survive with the social benefits in such a steep population decline.
Switzerland has chosen to let the immigrants in, while hating them at the same time.
As you say, many European countries have a too low fertility rate to replace the workforce now gradually getting into retirement.

> Switzerland has not chosen to hate immigrants.
> What are you speaking about ?
> People however are free to have their opinions. And if some people have a negative opinion so be it. In pluralistic sovieties, the rights of minorities are guarded
> Germans in Switzerland are NOT immigrants but Tüüütschi , people from Greater Germany, which is a difference
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Old 22.04.2012, 08:46
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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Swissinfo EN



I suppose short term residence / work via L-permits are still possible.
ironically most of these short terms are for the farming (i.e. SVPers), and they don't really like this...

http://translate.google.ch/translate...761880&act=url
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Old 22.04.2012, 09:07
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At a total fertility rate of 1.5, in two generations the popularion of CH would drop by half. Around 1% yearly is actually what is needed to keep it stable.
I think no western, wellfare country, could survive with the social benefits in such a steep population decline.
Switzerland has chosen to let the immigrants in, while hating them at the same time.
The Swiss population increased from around 6 Million to over 8 Million in the last 20 years.

Also, you don't get my point: I'm not against immigration. I'm very much in favor of diversification. However, turning Switzerland into little Germany is definitely not diversification.

Again - all the advocates of German mass immigration here should perhaps take a minute and think about how they'd feel if half of the population of wherever you're from were to be replaced by Germans.

As to Germans not being "immigrants" or being the "preferred immigrants": those who wrote that know absolutely nothing about Switzerland, its history over the last 80 years and its culture.
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