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  #101  
Old 22.04.2012, 09:27
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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I've been an SP voter all my adult life and have been very open to immigration up until a couple of years ago. Right now, I live in a community together with 49% Germans - go ahead and tell me that's normal. What would Brits say if they found that half of London's population consists of Germans?
So you voted for these changes all along and now you are having to live with those choices! Isnt that the way it should be? With voting comes responsibility. I mean what did you think open borders and EU actually meant? It is completely natural (at least to my way of thinking ) that better economic conditions would attract members from other EU countries where that was not the case, with NO limits by way of preset quotas. That means, that what you think is a 'problem' now, was completely spelled out at the very beginning.

I have news for you though. You know those German neighbours you have? Well there is nothing you can do, it isn't reversible like some overflowing tap. There is no country that asked their public as much as the Swiss public was asked if that is really really what they want. Probably time to think about pro's and con's before hitting the ballot box next time - regardless of who you vote for.
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  #102  
Old 22.04.2012, 10:08
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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I have the strong feeling that you didn't really read the article you were just referring to: It's about Sommaruga's understating the numbers massively. "Dadurch dass die Justizministerin den Durchschnitt der letzten 10 Jahre beizog, zeichnet sie – gewollt oder ungewollt – ein geschöntes Bild der Situation. Sie «vergass» zu erwähnen, dass die volle Personenfreizügigkeit mit den westeuropäischen EU-Ländern erst seit dem 1. Juni 2007 in Kraft ist." "Ein Beispiel: Im vergangenen Jahr sind insgesamt 142'471 Personen in die Schweiz eingewandert"

Total number for last year: 142'471 people. This year, 25'000 people came in during January and February alone, pushing the estimate for 2012 to around 150'000.

Anyway - you just gave me the numbers you were asking me to provide yourself. Also, it's very popular for cross-border commuters to use medical services in Switzerland, as I just found out with my wife spending a week in hospital after her c-section.

Peter
Actually the article was about the different numbers people quote although I assume the lower numbers from Sommaruga's are the most accurate. The other numbers were all from politicians interested in making the numbers look larger.

Interesting that you quote only part of a sentence "Ein Beispiel: Im vergangenen Jahr sind insgesamt 142'471 Personen in die Schweiz eingewandert"!!
The full sentence was "Ein Beispiel: Im vergangenen Jahr sind insgesamt 142'471 Personen in die Schweiz eingewandert, gleichzeitig sind 64'038 ausgewandert"

This means that 142'471 people came into Switzerland & 64'038 left Switzerland; leaving a net increase of circa 78,000.

About "very popular for cross-border commuters to use medical services in Switzerland" based on your wife's hospital visit; this is called a very limited sample! Something like writing "I saw a blue cat therefore all cats are blue"
Also interested to know how your wife identified the cross-border commuters; was it a question of "hands up everybody with G permits?"
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  #103  
Old 22.04.2012, 10:35
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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Actually the article was about the different numbers people quote although I assume the lower numbers from Sommaruga's are the most accurate. The other numbers were all from politicians interested in making the numbers look larger.
Awesome analysis there. The only problem being, that then you applied your own bias . - Sommaruga's by her very political nature, probably skews towards lower numbers. In other words, they are also garbage. Her numbers are just the ones that came to K. Zug
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  #104  
Old 22.04.2012, 10:55
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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So you voted for these changes all along and now you are having to live with those choices! Isnt that the way it should be? With voting comes responsibility. I mean what did you think open borders and EU actually meant? It is completely natural (at least to my way of thinking ) that better economic conditions would attract members from other EU countries where that was not the case, with NO limits by way of preset quotas.
First of all - economic conditions in Germany are comparable to those here. So is the standard of living.

Second of all: nobody could foresee that approving the bilateral treaties would cause that much immigration from Germany - the assumption at that point was that people from countries that actually aren't scoring among the top 10 in terms of quality of life would come here.

Anyway - the beauty of direct democracy is that changes can be undone by means of popular vote. And that's more than likely going to happen very soon.

Peter
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  #105  
Old 22.04.2012, 11:02
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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Awesome analysis there. The only problem being, that then you applied your own bias . - Sommaruga's by her very political nature, probably skews towards lower numbers. In other words, they are also garbage. Her numbers are just the ones that came to K. Zug
No, the problem with Sommaruga's numbers (apparently you still haven't read the article) is that she used the 10-year average. However, before 2007, the bilateral treaties weren't in effect and the number of non-refugee immigrants was low and under control. The topic now is about the bilateral II treaties - so pre-2007 numbers aren't of interest in the current political debate. Whether Sommaruga chose to use irrelevant numbers on purpose or whether she just randomly grabbed the first statistics she could find, is unknown.
The fact is: based on the numbers of last year and those of the first two months of this year, it's estimated that immigration from Germany will be around 120'000 people or 1/3 of the city of Zurich again this year. This has to stop. The good thing about the upcoming debate on whether Switzerland should re-negotiate or quit the bilateral II treaties is that we have some very strong allies in the EU - Germany isn't especially happy that their own population is shrinking and that a significant number of qualified people leave the country as soon as the German state is done paying for their education. The same goes for France and Italy.


Peter
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  #106  
Old 22.04.2012, 11:17
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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Awesome analysis there. The only problem being, that then you applied your own bias . - Sommaruga's by her very political nature, probably skews towards lower numbers. In other words, they are also garbage. Her numbers are just the ones that came to K. Zug

No I did not apply bias, my thinking was that Sommaruga is a Bundersrat member so would have the best access to numbers.
Secondly she would not publish numbers in an official statement that could easily be proved wrong.
What basis do you have to say they are garbage; apart from your own bias?
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  #107  
Old 22.04.2012, 11:20
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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No I did not apply bias, my thinking was that Sommaruga is a Bundersrat member so would have the best access to numbers.
Secondly she would not publish numbers in an official statement that could easily be proved wrong.
What basis do you have to say they are garbage; apart from your own bias?
Sommaruga's numbers weren't wrong - they just weren't relevant.
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  #108  
Old 22.04.2012, 11:22
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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No, the problem with Sommaruga's numbers (apparently you still haven't read the article) is that she used the 10-year average. However, before 2007, the bilateral treaties weren't in effect and the number of non-refugee immigrants was low and under control. The topic now is about the bilateral II treaties - so pre-2007 numbers aren't of interest in the current political debate. Whether Sommaruga chose to use irrelevant numbers on purpose or whether she just randomly grabbed the first statistics she could find, is unknown.
The fact is: based on the numbers of last year and those of the first two months of this year, it's estimated that immigration from Germany will be around 120'000 people or 1/3 of the city of Zurich again this year. This has to stop. The good thing about the upcoming debate on whether Switzerland should re-negotiate or quit the bilateral II treaties is that we have some very strong allies in the EU - Germany isn't especially happy that their own population is shrinking and that a significant number of qualified people leave the country as soon as the German state is done paying for their education. The same goes for France and Italy.


Peter
Good, so you agree that Sommaruga's numbers are correct.

About "it's estimated that immigration from Germany will be around 120'000 people or 1/3 of the city of Zurich again this year."

So you are again talking about gross numbers & ignoring the fact that many people leave each year so the actual increase in immigrants here is much smaller?
Anyway whose immigration estimate is this? One of yours?
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  #109  
Old 22.04.2012, 11:30
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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Good, so you agree that Sommaruga's numbers are correct.

About "it's estimated that immigration from Germany will be around 120'000 people or 1/3 of the city of Zurich again this year."

So you are again talking about gross numbers & ignoring the fact that many people leave each year so the actual increase in immigrants here is much smaller?
Anyway whose immigration estimate is this? One of yours?
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/10996427

28'000 in the first two months times 6 - it's really not that hard to calculate.


Around 60'000 people left last year, of which roughly 18'000 were Swiss natives who might or might not return in the future. Of the remaining 42'000, around half were refugees who were sent home because their home countries are deemed safe again by the Swiss government. That leaves us at around 20'000 who went back to EU and non-EU countries. At the same time, 147'000 people came in.
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  #110  
Old 22.04.2012, 11:36
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

BTW: France has 180'000 immigrants per year and wants to reduce that number to below 100'000. France's population is 8 x bigger than Switzerland's, its population density is less than half of Switzerland's, its area is 16x larger - and still they're aiming at immigration numbers that are far less than what Switzerland is facing from Germany alone. Just to put that into perspective.

http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/politi....15525025.html
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  #111  
Old 22.04.2012, 11:51
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/10996427

28'000 in the first two months times 6 - it's really not that hard to calculate.


Around 60'000 people left last year, of which roughly 18'000 were Swiss natives who might or might not return in the future. Of the remaining 42'000, around half were refugees who were sent home because their home countries are deemed safe again by the Swiss government. That leaves us at around 20'000 who went back to EU and non-EU countries. At the same time, 147'000 people came in.
Actually the official numbers from the Bundesamt für Statistiks do not support your contention that hordes of Germans are pouring in; see attached picture. It seems that only circa 10,000 Germans arrived in 20120 - hardly enough for the German government to adopt restrictive measures as you claimed?

I would suppose the reason that Sommaruga used the number range she did is because it is difficult to get recent numbers that are officially published because they take a long time to verify & check. A member of the Bundesrat cannot use provisional numbers as published by newspapers.

Interesting to see your detailed breakdown of the people who left last year. I see you do not give the same detailed breakdown of people who arrived; I guess that does not support your case?

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  #112  
Old 22.04.2012, 12:54
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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ironically most of these short terms are for the farming (i.e. SVPers), and they don't really like this...

http://translate.google.ch/translate...761880&act=url
And among the farmers, the SVP is still strong. The farmer-reps however make it clear that agriculture also needs permanent aids. While the "industry-wing" does not need the East Europeans. The SVP actually is the result of the merger of some Cantonal "Bauern-Partei" (farmers party) and some Cantonal "Gewerbe-Partei" (small business party)


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The Swiss population increased from around 6 Million to over 8 Million in the last 20 years. Also, you don't get my point: I'm not against immigration. I'm very much in favor of diversification. However, turning Switzerland into little Germany is definitely not diversification.
-
I would regard this as vastly exaggerated. Some facts. Here you see the vast share of short-term immigrants
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...irect.gif.html
and here the actual share.
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...irect.gif.html
It shows that it between 1908 and now only has risen from about 15% to 23% .... in more than a Century. Sure, since Schengen, the share HAS risen, but you also have to realize that many Swiss people took residence in adjacent areas of neighbouring countries, while often maintaining legal residence in Switzerland
and here the shares per nationality
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...irect.gif.html
as it is from 2006, you indeed can assume that the share of the Germans has risen to about the share of the Italians, which means to how it was in towards the end of the 19th Century and the first decade of the 20th Century

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Again - all the advocates of German mass immigration here should perhaps take a minute and think about how they'd feel if half of the population of wherever you're from were to be replaced by Germans.
-
Exaggeration again. Even 10% is NOT "half of the population"

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As to Germans not being "immigrants" or being the "preferred immigrants": those who wrote that know absolutely nothing about Switzerland, its history over the last 80 years and its culture.
-
a) culture ? It is the same culture as in Southern Germany. This is what makes living in Switzerland so easy for South Germans (Alemannen like in Switzerland, plus Bavarians and Saxonians + Hessen)
b) history ? Sure, while Emperor Wilhelm II in 1912 in a way visited a kind of neutral and non-alligned friend of the German Empire, Adolf Hitler with his clearly apparent idea of annexing Switzerland forced the Swiss to get into a distance. And exactly how Nazi-Germany forced Switzerland into many concessions and how Nazi Germany tried to get influence in Switzerland like having Mr Von Steiger getting pushed into the Bundesrat (successfully) and how Nazi Germany in 1939 tried to push NSDAP friendly Ulrich Wille Junior into the position of military CIC (failed, as CH elected Henri Guisan) added to anti-German hatred. And so, Germans were heavily DISliked (even hated) into the early 1960ies. In 1992 the CH prewar generation feared that the EEA was nothing else than a first step towards Switzerland getting taken over by Greater Germany, which lead to a massive NO among them. It also lead to a massive NO in the Canton of Schaffhausen who feared to get turned into a German border province ("Wehret den Anfängen").

Contradictory ? Yes indeed ! Exactly THE foreigners with the easiest cultural and linguistic access to Switzerland have to realise that most Swiss in a way stilll do not really trust their country.
- And all this while sharing numerous TV broadcasts of various sorts via Eurovision, while 10'000s of Swiss having taken defacto residence in neighbouring Germany, while Swiss watching more German TV (hrs/mins per day) than Swiss TV, while Swiss were going shopping in Germany since the early 1950ies

All in all, a complicated love-hate relationship

Last edited by Wollishofener; 22.04.2012 at 14:07.
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  #113  
Old 22.04.2012, 13:01
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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Actually the official numbers from the Bundesamt für Statistiks do not support your contention that hordes of Germans are pouring in; see attached picture. It seems that only circa 10,000 Germans arrived in 20120
Not sure where you got that from - the numbers contradict everything that went through the media in the last couple of days (including Sommaruga's numbers, btw.).
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  #114  
Old 22.04.2012, 13:05
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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What basis do you have to say they are garbage; apart from your own bias?
Don't give the answer inside your question, you're killing the fun.

...unrelated:
I just love it when people tell other "I understand Switzerland, you don't!". That sounds very German to me, not Swiss.
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  #115  
Old 22.04.2012, 13:05
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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Exaggeration again. Even 10% is NOT "half of the population"
yes, 10% is not "half of the population". 50% is. It's 49% in the town I live in right now. I never said that this is the Swiss average - although that probably will approach this percentage within 10 years or so, should immigration not be better controlled.

Anyway - I fail to see the point in continuing to discuss this - we can do so again after the vote on the freedom of movement towards the end of next year.
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  #116  
Old 22.04.2012, 13:06
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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Don't give the answer inside your question, you're killing the fun.

...unrelated:
I just love it when people tell other "I understand Switzerland, you don't!". That sounds very German to me, not Swiss.
I'm Swiss, not German.
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  #117  
Old 22.04.2012, 13:08
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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I'm Swiss, not German.
I know that, you are making such huge efforts to advertise your swissness, nobody can miss it and that's why my comment is funny.
But you are also Hungarian, so could half of you please leave the country? The other half of you demands it, not me.
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  #118  
Old 22.04.2012, 13:08
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Re: CH to impose quotas from 8 EU countries

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a) culture ? It is the same culture as in Southern Germany.
You probably shouldn't tell that to your Swiss colleagues at work.
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  #119  
Old 22.04.2012, 13:10
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You probably shouldn't tell that to your Swiss colleagues at work.
I tell that every day to my Swiss colleagues at work and they agree, especially by comparing with northern German Faltrad (*insert smiley with sailor's cap here*). Don't feel lonely, I'm sure somebody feels like you somewhere.
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  #120  
Old 22.04.2012, 13:11
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I know, that's why my comment is funny.
But you are also Hungarian, so could half of you please leave the country? The other half of you demands it, not me.
I was born Swiss and have absolutely zero relationship to Hungary. I don't speak the language, I've been there perhaps 10 times over my lifetime. My parents (my dad is half Hungarian, my mother is Swiss) thought it'd be a good idea for me to get the Hungarian passport in 1991 - that's the reason why I have double citizenship. We also just chose not to sign up our newborn son for the Hungarian passport because there's simply no point in doing so.
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