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-   -   Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/144602-merck-serono-layoffs-up-900-redundancies-geneva.html)

Anjela 01.05.2012 14:07

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 1549394)
Is the person giving the advise is aware if the implications of the Geneva / French tax agreement? It's very specific & rental income can substancially change the situation.

The good news is the French can only go back 3 years, in the UK it's unlimited as the statute of limitations does not apply!

Yes.

Happy Birthday by the way!

Shorrick Mk2 01.05.2012 14:27

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 15493607)

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most of all, the "Wirteprüfung" which was xenophobic and a miserable thing also was abolished. Quality in reality improved as more competition arrived. That SVP-GastroSuisse chap Mr Bachmann always talks about a declining quality just refers to the fact that some of his buddies were driven out of business.

Sure, there now are too many places in many areas, and some restaurant owners (of some excellent places :o) are bloody amateurs, and may finally fail. which is a pity, but if you say yes to a free market, this is a result

I don't know what Mr. Bachmann says, but out of experience the quality HAS gone down. And I doubt a 70% turnover indicates merely that SOME are amateurs.

Quote:

onward to Lyon, onward to Annecy (Aix-les-Bains > Grenoble), onward to Dijon (directly, with connections to Paris), onward to Chamonix - Aosta - Torino
Absolutely great ideas - luckily we have the Bourbines to point out the oversights of the Welsch...

Have you ever tried to take the train from Geneva to Annecy? Or to Chamonix? Let me know how that works out :rolleyes: - try convincing the French they should build a train track though before planning your trip...

Chamonix - Aosta? That's also a great plan - someone should get them pesky Italians to dig the tunnel first.

The trains to Lyon and Dijon leave directly from downtown - no business case linking GVA airport with Lyon or Paris considering they already have several of their own...

Or do you just randomly point at cities on the map and say "hey it's a great idea, we should have a train to there" :D

FrankZappa 01.05.2012 21:27

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 1549336)
The system of paying your tax in CH when living in France assumes that 90% of your income comes from your employment in CH, if your renting a property in the UK that may not be the case. French residents would then be taxable on World-wide income & gains in France. I think you need to take specialist tax advice.

Sorry to hear your heart-breaking news Anjela. Your tax situation is really complicated. As fatmanfilms says, I'd contact a specialist. These guys are experts. I used them. They are not expensive (80CHF for correcting my Geneva tax claim....)

http://www.quasi-resident.ch/

Selling up in the UK and renegociating the mortgage on the french house still looks like the best option to me, but then I'm biased. Just my two rappen.

Good luck.

Wollishofener 02.05.2012 06:49

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankZappa (Post 1549725)
Sorry to hear your heart-breaking news Anjela. Your tax situation is really complicated. As fatmanfilms says, I'd contact a specialist. These guys are experts. I used them. They are not expensive (80CHF for correcting my Geneva tax claim....)

http://www.quasi-resident.ch/

Selling up in the UK and renegociating the mortgage on the french house still looks like the best option to me, but then I'm biased. Just my two rappen.

Good luck.

heart-breaking ? YES, it is embarassing and depressing to get full details of people directly affected by such developments ! :mad: This is what often is behind the phrase "reducing our workforce" !! And on the basis of the resulting considerations, Swiss trades unions leader Rechsteiner won in his conservative Canton St. Gallen. Reminding people that HE has been the one over past decades who took personal care of people laid off throughout the country.

In regard to the two houses above, MY personal thing would have been
A) trying to sell the British house
B) trying to rent an affordable place in the area (F or CHI)
C) to sell the French house
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B2) considering to move, as GVA according to so many posts above is a hopeless place in this regard, to areas like Basel, Zürich, Luzern or Lugano. You can live in Lugano and work in the neighbouring Lombardy --- not just the other way round.

rainer_d 02.05.2012 12:16

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankZappa (Post 1549725)
Sorry to hear your heart-breaking news Anjela. Your tax situation is really complicated. As fatmanfilms says, I'd contact a specialist. These guys are experts. I used them. They are not expensive (80CHF for correcting my Geneva tax claim....)

http://www.quasi-resident.ch/

Selling up in the UK and renegociating the mortgage on the french house still looks like the best option to me, but then I'm biased. Just my two rappen.

Good luck.

I think renegotiating at 50-something is also NOT a piece of cake [1].
There's a reason (other than it being too big for two persons) why so many retired Swiss people sell and move into a flat: AFAIK, you can't get a mortgage to do big repairs/upgrades anymore once you passed 65.

This is one of those "sad" threads where you just want to "groan" at the thread itself.


[1]Well, considering the situation, nothing is

fatmanfilms 02.05.2012 12:23

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rainer_d (Post 1550091)
I think renegotiating at 50-something is also NOT a piece of cake [1].

It's all down to value of property & percentage of mortgage, if your only borrowing 2/3 they ask very little.

Anjela 02.05.2012 12:36

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Thank you FrankZappa for the link, although I do think we're covered. As I've said several times B-in-L is a tax inspector for HM Revenue and Customs, specialising in people in our situation and we have checked with an accountant in Geneva. We've paid all due taxes to the relevant countries, always have done.

As for Wollishofener's suggestions.... I'm sure you mean well, but why on earth would we want to sell both houses and rent from someone else? Ending our days with nothing and in an area we're strangers to (probably won't speak the language as we're francophones) and which would be miles and miles away from our family in Geneva?

If hubbie manages to find another job elsewhere he is more than prepared to move, to another country if necessary; probably on his own for a few years as I sort things out here, but neither of us are going to accept not owning our own house; not after waiting so long for that dream to become reality!

fatmanfilms 02.05.2012 12:56

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anjela (Post 1550116)
Thank you FrankZappa for the link, although I do think we're covered. As I've said several times B-in-L is a tax inspector for HM Revenue and Customs, specialising in people in our situation and we have checked with an accountant in Geneva. We've paid all due taxes to the relevant countries, always have done.
!

Both Robert Gains-Cooper's parents worked for the Inland Revenue, The Bank of England confirmed he was non resident in the 70's, this did not stop the Revenue from claiming he had been a resident for 30 years & winning their case in the High Court.
Your tax advise needs to come from someone specialising in French tax law, not UK or Swiss.

You would not be exempt from French CGT on the sale of any assets you hold worldwide, however your advisors seem to have never mentioned this. If you were living in Switzerland you would not have a CGT liability on selling the UK home.
France has recently changed CGT on second homes from 15 to 30 years, primary residences are exempt, it's quite complicated.

Dack Rambo 02.05.2012 12:57

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
A lot of "ifs" here, I would concentrate on getting the best possible redundancy package and checking entitlements to welfare in case your husband doesn't find a job.

Buying and selling property is a complicated business, until the mortgage is paid off a house owns you as much as you own it.

fatmanfilms 02.05.2012 13:07

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dack Rambo (Post 1550153)
A checking entitlements to welfare in case your husband doesn't find a job.
.

There will be no 'welfare' benefits as the OP has substancial assets, just unemployment pay.

Guest 02.05.2012 13:17

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Yesterday I was holding a stall for the Magasins du Monde at the Fete du Travail in my native village, and one of the speakers was Alain Berset, Home Affairs secretary. He deplored the situation with Merck Serono, and the underlying attitudes of big corporations which are given huge tax breaks here in CH, then just move on when those come to an end, without a care of thought for their workers.

A very pleasant, simple and personable chap, I was quite impressed.

Wollishofener 03.05.2012 03:06

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Yesterday I was holding a stall for the Magasins du Monde at the Fete du Travail in my native village, and one of the speakers was Alain Berset, Home Affairs secretary. He deplored the situation with Merck Serono, and the underlying attitudes of big corporations which are given huge tax breaks here in CH, then just move on when those come to an end, without a care of thought for their workers.

A very pleasant, simple and personable chap, I was quite impressed.
Bundesrat Berset within a very short time has become very popular throughout the country ! Amazingly enough, the SP now is in the Bundesrat with two former professional pianists. Mrs Sommaruga was piano teacher before getting into Konsumentenschutz and Mr Berset was a professional Jazz pianist for a while in Brasil ! Have you ever listened to Mr Berset talking in German ? Absolutely excellent ! And he apparently is equally well off with English and Portuguese, a real linguist. You of course can argue that all this will not solve the political problems he has to face. Well, possibly not, but helpful it will be nevertheless.

Extrovert Berset is the opposite to introvert Burkhalter. Strange is that Switzerland now has an "invisible" foreign minister and a very well "visible" Interior Minister :D

fatmanfilms 03.05.2012 08:55

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Yesterday I was holding a stall for the Magasins du Monde at the Fete du Travail in my native village, and one of the speakers was Alain Berset, Home Affairs secretary. He deplored the situation with Merck Serono, and the underlying attitudes of big corporations which are given huge tax breaks here in CH, then just move on when those come to an end, without a care of thought for their workers.

A very pleasant, simple and personable chap, I was quite impressed.
Unfortunately he is missing the point, the board of direcretors has a legal obligation to it's shareholders, a business is about making money for it's shareholders, so paying less tax would get a thumbs up.

Pachyderm 03.05.2012 09:21

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 1550830)
Unfortunately he is missing the point, the board of direcretors has a legal obligation to it's shareholders, a business is about making money for it's shareholders, so paying less tax would get a thumbs up.

It's a bit more nuanced than that. A business has all sorts of obligations, including social obligations. Think how big CSR has become.

Paying the least possible tax, and closing down sections of a business without consideration of the social and economic impact on a community, and not taking social/environmental responsibilities seriously, can also have a severe effect on the bottom line as these things tend to attract negative headlines. So avoiding tax might have a short term benefit for shareholders but goes down very badly with the hard-pressed 'squeezed middle' who can punish those same shareholders by taking their business elsewhere.

There have been good examples of all these things in the UK/US in recent years.

Guest 03.05.2012 10:27

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Some of those businesses move on from tax break to tax break, - leaving havoc behind them. Businesses do have a responsibility to share-holders, but to their workers and the society around them too. It happened of course in many parts of the UK, in the North and Wales.

Shorrick Mk2 03.05.2012 11:14

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
All the "tax break and move" discussion is irrelevant as far as MerckSerono is concerned - you have to provision taxes and pay them if you move before the agreed deadline. Which Merck will do now.

Of course Mr. Berset being a politician and all that...

fatmanfilms 03.05.2012 12:48

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Some of those businesses move on from tax break to tax break, - leaving havoc behind them. Businesses do have a responsibility to share-holders, but to their workers and the society around them too. It happened of course in many parts of the UK, in the North and Wales.
Business are set up to make money for the owners, whom risk with their money.

Employing people & paying taxes are the consequence of being successful.

When a company is a net exporter & the currency strengthens significantly, profit's & the viability of the operation will diminish.

I remember Nisan complaining how the strength of the £ was an issue, as it wan not in the Euro.

Dack Rambo 03.05.2012 16:32

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 1550168)
There will be no 'welfare' benefits as the OP has substancial assets, just unemployment pay.

That's what I meant

Pachyderm 03.05.2012 20:32

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 1550973)
Business are set up to make money for the owners, whom risk with their money.

Employing people & paying taxes are the consequence of being successful.

When a company is a net exporter & the currency strengthens significantly, profit's & the viability of the operation will diminish.

Businesses are set up for a variety of reasons. Making money is sometimes a means to an end, and not an end in itself -- or not the only end.

If you had a choice between making 100 units of profit and be widely admired and respected in the community, or 105 units of profit, but be widely despised and ridiculed, which would you choose?

The latter is perfectly legitimate, and plenty of people would choose it. Personally, I wouldn't.

fatmanfilms 03.05.2012 20:54

Re: Merck Serono layoffs - up to 900 redundancies in Geneva
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachyderm (Post 1551357)
Businesses are set up for a variety of reasons. Making money is sometimes a means to an end, and not an end in itself -- or not the only end.

If you had a choice between making 100 units of profit and be widely admired and respected in the community, or 105 units of profit, but be widely despised and ridiculed, which would you choose?

The latter is perfectly legitimate, and plenty of people would choose it. Personally, I wouldn't.

When investing there is no guaranteed 100 or 105 units of profit, if there was the majority of fund managers would go for 105% because thats exactly what they are paid to do! unless of course they were running an 'ethical' fund.

I don't seek admiration or care what people think of my investments, I seek to buy what I think is attractive at the time, it's rather like buying something in Germany because it's 30% cheaper this week!

When investing there is no guaranteed 100 or 105 units of profit. I never met anyone who intended to loose money in any business venture althrough many do.


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