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  #61  
Old 27.06.2012, 18:27
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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You mean the bible?
Does it really matter what book?
If it's the bible the Quran or Mein Kampf. Call for violence is call for violence, there's no good or bad call.
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  #62  
Old 27.06.2012, 18:36
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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Does it really matter what book?
If it's the bible the Quran or Mein Kampf. Call for violence is call for violence, there's no good or bad call.
So what's your point?
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  #63  
Old 27.06.2012, 18:47
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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So what's your point?
The point is that 'Mein Kampf' is forbidden here (thats ok), but other books, not less danger, are allowed because they're called religion.
Could someone start a new religion and declare 'Mein Kampf' as holy?
I disagree...
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  #64  
Old 27.06.2012, 19:02
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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The point is that 'Mein Kampf' is forbidden here
Yes and no. The copyrights belong to the Land of Bayern until end 2015. They don't allow reproduction/publication. Just wait for the complete commented annotated version they plan to publish in German probably in the last months of 2015. Switzerland doesn't have to forbid it explicitly, they just respect the copyright legal situation.
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Old 27.06.2012, 19:14
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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The point is that 'Mein Kampf' is forbidden here (thats ok), but other books, not less danger, are allowed because they're called religion.
Could someone start a new religion and declare 'Mein Kampf' as holy?
I disagree...
Is there ever any point to these logical fallacy debates. We all know that two wrongs don't make a right, so why bother stating the obvious?
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  #66  
Old 27.06.2012, 19:28
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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No, your rights end when you actually start smashing other people's property, be they mosques or cars or houses.

Nobody as far as I know actually smashed a mosque because of this tweet. It may be practical for some deranged person to go out now and do that and then to worm out by blaming somebody else, but no, it doesn't work.

If you want to start banning speech just because it glorifies hate, discrimiantion and violence, then you can start by banning rap music.
Well, think about the original Kristallnacht. It happened because people incited hatred and promoted violence against the Jewish people. Do we have to wait until people are physically hurt before the law says he did something wrong?

Common sense and the courts can draw a reasonable line. Debate like this is also important.
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  #67  
Old 27.06.2012, 21:17
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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This whole topic is tricky. I've read public statements in America that are racist or lies, yet they are allowed because they fall into the shroud of freedom of speech.
I meant sth. else: Nashville was asking us to wait for the results of the investigation.

My point was that I do not need a decision by a court in order to evaluate Müllers tweets.

Besides: I find some (other) posters reasoning that we should go easy on the guy because he was exercising his right right to free speech logically flawed, as expressing my opinion about his tweets falls under my right to free speech.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

Last edited by SamWeiseVielleicht; 27.06.2012 at 23:01.
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  #68  
Old 27.06.2012, 22:53
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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No, your rights end when you actually start smashing other people's property, be they mosques or cars or houses.

Nobody as far as I know actually smashed a mosque because of this tweet. It may be practical for some deranged person to go out now and do that and then to worm out by blaming somebody else, but no, it doesn't work.

If you want to start banning speech just because it glorifies hate, discrimiantion and violence, then you can start by banning rap music.
According to Federal Swiss law, your rights end when you insult specific ethnic groups (incl religion followers) . You can be found guilty even if no violence resulted really. It however is enough if you incite or encourage violence. Whether his twitter statement falls under that law or not is now investigated. If he is lucky they will conclude that he did not mean it literally and did NOT want to see mosques burnt down and Muslims killed. If not, he may be prosecuted accordingly. He has the right for a defence lawyer which if he does not have enough money will be paid by the state.

I do not remember the details but a few years ago, a rap singer performing in Switzerland on a visit had to change his texts, which were against the law here. If I remember correctly, his manager even sorted things out BEFORE his arrival.

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See this is exactly the point which I find irritating about Müller. What brought about his anger was that a Muslim was cleared for inciting violence after he said he thought it was ok that men beat the wives if they refuse to have sex when directly asked about his opinion in a documentary.

His reaction was to openly think about violence against this whole community and saying he wants to execute certain people.

Either We have complete freedom of opinion like you propose which is a legitimate wish or we have it up to a certain point which is also legitimate. The laws here states that we're not to incite violence or racial hatred.

After Müller was so outraged with the Muslim being found not guilty of inciting racial hatred then he can't hide behind his freedom of opinion, the same freedom he wished didn't protect the other guy

Using the muslim's comments as a basis for prosecution then I feel at the very least he should be investigated.


At the end of TA's article about Müller's press conference they had the 'highlights' of his tweets:

Some examples:

Sometimes war wouldn't be so bad, I could then shoot all the a..holes I hate

Regarding the rapings in Basel: A shame that no left basler politician has become a victim yet...then maybe something would be done about the problems in Basel .....but they probaly look so ugly, that they're not pretty enough for the North Africans

The guy is totally primitive and I'm happy his political career has been ended before it got probably started
The man managed to insult both leftist Baslers and Arabs in one single sentence
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  #69  
Old 28.06.2012, 10:36
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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Yes and no. The copyrights belong to the Land of Bayern until end 2015. They don't allow reproduction/publication. Just wait for the complete commented annotated version they plan to publish in German probably in the last months of 2015. Switzerland doesn't have to forbid it explicitly, they just respect the copyright legal situation.
The copyright situation just prevents reprinting in certain countries. It doesn't prevent you importing second hand copies. I have seen Mein Kampf on sale in a bookstore in the USA. Not an old wartime edition but a freshly printed new one. I guess the reason you don't see that here is not so much the copyright as booksellers not wanting to have anything to do with it.
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  #70  
Old 28.06.2012, 10:40
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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According to Federal Swiss law, your rights end when you insult specific ethnic groups (incl religion followers) . You can be found guilty even if no violence resulted really. It however is enough if you incite or encourage violence. Whether his twitter statement falls under that law or not is now investigated. If he is lucky they will conclude that he did not mean it literally and did NOT want to see mosques burnt down and Muslims killed. If not, he may be prosecuted accordingly. He has the right for a defence lawyer which if he does not have enough money will be paid by the state.
Then it is time we rallied against the authors of cookery books. These books are filled with hate speech exhorting people to do violent things against spaghettis including throwing them in boiling water and eating them alive.The Spaghetti Monster is very angry and all Spaghetti Monstrites are deeply hurt in their religious feelings. Send those evil chefs to jail is what I say.

Of course the chefs can argue that they didn't literally mean people to cook spaghettis or eat them. It was more an expression of their disgust at the agricultural industry and food susbidies. But would you believe them?
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  #71  
Old 28.06.2012, 10:50
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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Is there ever any point to these logical fallacy debates. We all know that two wrongs don't make a right, so why bother stating the obvious?
Nobody said two wrongs make a right.

The point is that anybody can start a religion and believe anything they want. If a law protects a religion against external offense, it implicitly takes that religion from being the believer's personal affair to being something that affects everybody else as well. Therefore non democratic mechanisms can prevent others from doing things that would otherwise be legitimate. This is not a fallacy but a hard argument why religions should remain the personal responsibility of individuals.
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  #72  
Old 28.06.2012, 10:54
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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Now feel free to correct anything which is inaccurate but from what 20min writes he started by talking about the photographer who takes photos of tons of naked people in places and how Müller was amazed he finds so much people willing to strip. Afterwards he suggests women in Saudi Arabia should protest by having a naked march in Mecca.

He then talked about the guy who was not convicted (a month ago) of giving his opinion about the treatment of women, when asked in a documentry. (He thinks it's ok for them to be beaten if they don't give out)

He then writes we should chuck these people out of the country. I don't want to live with these people.

30 sec. later he says Maybe we need another Kristallnacht....this time against muslims.

5 min later he writes stuff like he won't let his mouth be banned by moralists and he actually would like to put certain people up against a wall and shoot them. Less dirt on the Earth would be a good thing.

Later when challenged he said what I wrote at the start. Don't talk sh.... Repeating the Reichskristallnacht would meaning destroying synagoues. I never considered that.
?
He seems mentally disturbed to me.
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  #73  
Old 01.07.2012, 16:26
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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Short comment from Diccon Bewes:

https://mobile.twitter.com/#!/dicconb

and an article in German:

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/digital/...story/24299057

Unbelievable!
Nice! This guy trumps all of the hateful lunatics I've seen amongst the ranks of the Tea Party in the US. So now he lost his job as well as his position on the school board. Good! Serves him right. His hate-filled diatribes against the Muslims, along with his comments about having a war so he could shoot all the ar$eholes he hates and that bit about left wing-politicians should have been rape victims all indicate he is a deranged and dangerous individual.
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  #74  
Old 01.07.2012, 17:35
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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Nice! This guy trumps all of the hateful lunatics I've seen amongst the ranks of the Tea Party in the US. So now he lost his job as well as his position on the school board. Good! Serves him right. His hate-filled diatribes against the Muslims, along with his comments about having a war so he could shoot all the ar$eholes he hates and that bit about left wing-politicians should have been rape victims all indicate he is a deranged and dangerous individual.
Not more dangerous and/or deranged as his party ! He simply openly and bluntly stated what the SVPler think ! Do not forget that the Blocherite SVP over the years integrated radicalist movements. Only if such folks cross a certain treshold comes the axe. They however are appreciated as long as they are useful and disciplined party idiots.

What gave the matter the kick was the term "Kristallnacht". To mention the Reichskristallnacht is clearly a step too far even for the SVP.

Depressing is that such a chap for years was in the "Schulpflege" !!
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  #75  
Old 01.07.2012, 17:45
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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The copyright situation just prevents reprinting in certain countries.
Oh ya totally. It's actually just enforceable in Germany. Other countries do what ever they want. It exists as manga in Japan. The US and Japan couldn't care less about German copyrights. Switzerland doesn't stand as strong in that fight.
That being said, it's hard reading. Political analysis. Not the easy emotional propaganda people think it is. In original German version, it's intricate, not very clear and complex mix of abstract fallacies and intricate references to politics and events of the 20ies. Totally impossible to follow without hardcore political science studies beforehand.

Last edited by Faltrad; 02.07.2012 at 00:29. Reason: added "enforceable" because this message was misunderstood.
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  #76  
Old 01.07.2012, 17:47
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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It is interesting because I do not have tweeter and I was able to see the comment
but here it is:

"SVP member @DailyTalk tweets "Maybe we need another Kristallnacht, this time for mosques." disgusting & dangerous"
OMG what an imbecil
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  #77  
Old 01.07.2012, 18:00
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

But not an isolated case: According to this article in the Tagesaanzeiger
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/31940721 there is another SVP activist who demanded that asylum seekers are segregated by sex in order to avoid their 'replication', that they are fed with no more than 1000 calories per day and that they are summarily executed (it remains somewhat unclear for what offense/crime).
Needless to say the usual party reaction kicked in again: He is a lone nutcase, there is no room for such views etc. He already terminated his party membership.
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  #78  
Old 01.07.2012, 18:08
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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...
In France for example, an 'asylum seeker' even get's neither just 1 calorie per day nor any money and nobody blame about that...
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Old 01.07.2012, 18:15
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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In France for example, an 'asylum seeker' even get's neither just 1 calorie per day nor any money and nobody blame about that...
If you don't like it here, go the f* to France
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Old 01.07.2012, 18:15
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Re: Sickening tweet from an SVP member

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In France for example, an 'asylum seeker' even get's neither just 1 calorie per day nor any money and nobody blame about that...
Great strategy - makes it so much easier to blame them of (inevitable) crimes and have the facts to prove it.
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