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  #21  
Old 26.06.2012, 08:45
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

Many countries require that the passports of visitors include place of birth. But as stated by one poster place of birth does not equate to nationality at birth. Some issuers of passports will issue a second passport without the place of birth, with a warning that this may cause problems in some countries. Particularly those countries that do not freely permit emigration.

SVP is a nationalist party. Like other nationalists, part of their strategy is to create a "us vs them" dialog. This appeals to some, but alienates many more and in stable, well educated country like Switzerland leads to the marginalization of the nationalist party.
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  #22  
Old 26.06.2012, 09:17
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

I think what they initially attempted to do was to revoke the passport of naturalized Swiss who either committed a serious crime shortly after getting the passport or who have acquired Swiss citizenship through false pretenses. Therefore they needed a distinction between born Swiss and naturalized Swiss, which they haven't quite thought through, as so often.
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Old 26.06.2012, 09:57
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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My good people,

do you really think that there could be any ideological link between SVP and Nazi Germany?
.
well they do want a Kristallnacht...that's quite nazi-like

and also their propaganda posters are inspired from the nazis...

and the resemblance between Mörgeli and Goebbels....

and of course Rhetorical they are VERY similar, you can google +SVP +NAZI

Of course I know that they are using simplified and retarded politics...people like Breivik didn't...
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Old 26.06.2012, 10:05
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

So, a small section of the SVP proposed a ludicrous, ill-thought out suggestion, so the whole of the party is labelled as rabid 1930s-style jackbooted Nazis?
You do realise that some SVPers are actually quite liberal in their thinking, don't you?
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Old 26.06.2012, 10:06
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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So, a small section of the SVP proposed a ludicrous, ill-thought out suggestion, so the whole of the party is labelled as rabid 1930s-style jackbooted Nazis?
You do realise that some SVPers are actually quite liberal in their thinking, don't you?
Indeed, it's just a shame that they can't be heard over all the bullsh*tting... I'd really appreciate it, if they would stop to bend over to finally stand up for themselves...
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Old 26.06.2012, 10:22
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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So, a small section of the SVP proposed a ludicrous, ill-thought out suggestion, so the whole of the party is labelled as rabid 1930s-style jackbooted Nazis?
You do realise that some SVPers are actually quite liberal in their thinking, don't you?
Yes of course I know...but the loudest bunch and the high priests are not the liberal ones...maybe the rest has to distance themselves or join BDP or FDP...

also they can also get rid of members who make statements like:

(http://translate.google.ch/translate...344541&act=url)

instead of defending them, make a stand...like: "this is totally unacceptable and this person is no more member of our party..." etc.
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  #27  
Old 26.06.2012, 10:51
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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Indeed, it's just a shame that they can't be heard over all the bullsh*tting... I'd really appreciate it, if they would stop to bend over to finally stand up for themselves...
Not really.. they are more numerous and more vocal than their more extreme counterparts, it's just that you refuse to listen to them and jump on every occasion to be shocked/outraged when some random SVP member (which everyone can be by the way) says something stupid.

Look at prominent SVP politicians and their respective positions regarding a large number of topics and I'm pretty sure you'll find they are more liberal than most nationalist parties in other countries.

I think most people on here just prefer hysteria and uninformed outrage postings to real politics, so they focus on the extreme rather than the normal.

Personally I don't like the party much, I disagree with a range of their positions, but think others are/were very reasonable and they changed much for the better.
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  #28  
Old 26.06.2012, 10:59
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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As for "your race is in your passport", actually no, it isn't in any halfway decent country. Same goes for "religion". And no country distinguishes those who obtained citizenship by birth and those who are naturalised full citizens.
Not too long ago there was a not entirely insignificant number of people who made a not entirely inisginificant amount of noise about Obama's birth ceritificate. But I digress.

Last edited by amogles; 26.06.2012 at 11:14.
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  #29  
Old 26.06.2012, 11:02
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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Well I guess the SVP are becoming the experts on this topic with an increasing number of their senior people suspected of serious crimes
It does prove their point that Germans aren't to be trusted.
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  #30  
Old 26.06.2012, 11:06
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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Look at prominent SVP politicians and their respective positions regarding a large number of topics and I'm pretty sure you'll find they are more liberal than most nationalist parties in other countries.
They're probably more liberal even than some of the other Swiss parties. Look how the other parties are shooting themselves in the foot over the benefits for asylum seekers question.
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Old 26.06.2012, 11:07
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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Not really.. they are more numerous and more vocal than their more extreme counterparts, it's just that you refuse to listen to them and jump on every occasion to be shocked/outraged when some random SVP member (which everyone can be by the way) says something stupid.

Look at prominent SVP politicians and their respective positions regarding a large number of topics and I'm pretty sure you'll find they are more liberal than most nationalist parties in other countries.
Agreed - it is easy to bash them for their more vocal (and not too smart) comments. And yes, it does tickle my fancy reading yet another absurd statement...

But I do know the SVP mostly from the rural/municipal part, the base so to speak. Lots of good people, but ultimately it always feels as if the moderate part gives in to the hardliners at almost every corner.

Not to mention all those patrons who know how business/trade/agreements work, but choose to go the (easy) populistic way all the same.
I know that there are exceptions, but to me they simply show no backbone/are too few.

On the other hand, after a few years of the SVP circus, I simply stop caring much for politics in general.. especially since other seem to emulate them to gather more of their votes.
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Old 26.06.2012, 11:45
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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Oh what a load of old bollocks! Even the Swiss know Blochers forefathers were German.

I am Swiss of English origin according to my papers. So what! If you want to jump on the SVP bandwagon, just feel insulted for every slight they make about the non-Swiss living here. If you like it here and want to make it your home, just be a decent citizen. Your Swiss neighbor wont have a problem with that.

Tired and irritated at some of the expats who believe in all the posturing and bow down to it, or even worse become angry what ever bloody place you've decided to become a victim in.
Ask your self something.... did you ever reach out to your foreign neighbor at home?
About "If you like it here and want to make it your home, just be a decent citizen. "

I originally posted this as a reminder to the EF members who are naturalised Swiss & also support SVP policies.

The reminder is "be careful what you wish for" & maybe as a naturalised Swiss you are not so safe as you thought.

Also as a reminder that if you do like it here and do make it your home then be careful not to make any mistakes that could cause you "to be sent away...."
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  #33  
Old 26.06.2012, 11:53
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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Oh what a load of old bollocks! Even the Swiss know Blochers forefathers were German.

I am Swiss of English origin according to my papers. So what! If you want to jump on the SVP bandwagon, just feel insulted for every slight they make about the non-Swiss living here. If you like it here and want to make it your home, just be a decent citizen. Your Swiss neighbor wont have a problem with that.

Tired and irritated at some of the expats who believe in all the posturing and bow down to it, or even worse become angry what ever bloody place you've decided to become a victim in.
Ask your self something.... did you ever reach out to your foreign neighbor at home?

I know what you're trying to say, but actually in my case, I did reach out to foreigners back in Canada. The YMCA had a volunteer program which paired people up with a recent immigrant around the same age, and I was a volunteer. You would meet at least once a week and help them out with the language, integration, getting around, or you'd just simply talk to them and offer some support.

When I see the SVP posters here, which come from a government party, it can't help but make my blood boil, since this sort of thing shouldn't even exist! I don't care that most people don't vote for the SVP, but the mere presence of these posters and this party speaks volumes about this place. And how do you think it influences young Swiss people who have been subjected to these posters and these initiatives their whole lives? They might not agree, but it gives the impression that it's alright for these things to exist...
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  #34  
Old 26.06.2012, 12:14
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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Not to mention all those patrons who know how business/trade/agreements work, but choose to go the (easy) populistic way all the same.
I know that there are exceptions, but to me they simply show no backbone/are too few.
Actually, the interesting thing about the SVP is that there are several microcosms living in parallel and apparently getting along with one another although they are totally different.

My analysis is this

1) There are the farmers, who don't really have any high political ambitions but like a party that listens to them and want some level of protection

2) There are the businessmen who want to push back regulation and get more free market.

3) There are the closet xenophobes who don't like it that their neighbour is Yugoslav, but don't otherwise understand or care much oabout politics.

4) There are the Bünzlis who don't really have any problem with anybody and definitely don't hate anybody but think it's good there is a party with an old fashioned attitude to law and order and is on the side of the Swiss and against the EU, the UNO and these other Bilderbergers.

5) There are the clownish intellectualls who don't take any of this too seriously but can emulate and parody any of these groups at will (without them noticing) and love the prose and the provocation and write editorials in Weltwoche and troll on TV talkshows with the sole purpose of driving some trade union guy or some bearded greenie up the wall and tricking them into saying something incredibly stupid that the SVP can then quote and use against them. When you meet them in private they're totally reasonable and are probably more interested in fast cars and the good life than politics.

The amazing thing is that although these five groups are totally at cross purposes they seem to be at peace with one another. I have no idea how they do it.
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  #35  
Old 26.06.2012, 12:22
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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Tired and irritated at some of the expats who believe in all the posturing and bow down to it, or even worse become angry what ever bloody place you've decided to become a victim in.
The only posturing is being done by the SVP. They are playing the "there is no such thing as bad publicity" card.
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  #36  
Old 26.06.2012, 12:25
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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Actually, the interesting thing about the SVP is that there are several microcosms living in parallel and apparently getting along with one another although they are totally different.

(...)

The amazing thing is that although these five groups are totally at cross purposes they seem to be at peace with one another. I have no idea how they do it.
^

Haha, very true, good post!
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  #37  
Old 26.06.2012, 12:35
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

What??

Are you....serious, or....drunk, maybe? It's a bit early for that

That sort of thing is exactly what I am complaining about. Hitler's enabling act gave him a lot of power to further pursue his own agenda, and we can all agree that it was not a ''good'' agenda.

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Under the (Enabling) Act, the government had acquired the authority to pass laws without either parliamentary consent or control. Unprecedentedly, these laws could (with certain exceptions) even deviate from the Constitution. The Act effectively eliminated the Reichstag as active players in German politics, though the existence of the body, alongside that of the Reichsrat and of the office of President were protected under the Act (nonetheless, the two latter were abolished in April and August 1934, respectively). Together with the Reichstag Fire Decree, which curtailed basic civil liberties and transferred state powers to the Reich government, the Act transformed Hitler's government into a legal dictatorship.
Or what are you trying to say? That xenophobic posters and initiatives are all part of freedom-of-speech? Only to a certain extent!!!!

In other countries it would not be acceptable to have such posters, or to waste time with ridiculous, racist initiatives...and somehow, in your head, that equates to being a Nazi???
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Old 26.06.2012, 12:37
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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Actually, the interesting thing about the SVP is that there are several microcosms living in parallel and apparently getting along with one another although they are totally different.

SNIP

5) There are the clownish intellectualls who don't take any of this too seriously but can emulate and parody any of these groups at will (without them noticing) and love the prose and the provocation and write editorials in Weltwoche and troll on TV talkshows with the sole purpose of driving some trade union guy or some bearded greenie up the wall and tricking them into saying something incredibly stupid that the SVP can then quote and use against them. When you meet them in private they're totally reasonable and are probably more interested in fast cars and the good life than politics.

The amazing thing is that although these five groups are totally at cross purposes they seem to be at peace with one another. I have no idea how they do it.
Ha, great post, thanks! Well observed...

I have a friend who meets those clowns on a regular basis - on the show they have the biggest fights and arguments, afterwards they all go for a beer together and share a few laughs.
In a way it tells me that it is not as bad as it is made out to be, on the other I am angry that they use this circus to get publicity.

To me it just leaves a really bad aftertaste, in that they do not take the public seriously... (my biggest gripe I guess, but I agree that any mass of humans are more like a stampeding herd anyway).
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  #39  
Old 26.06.2012, 13:17
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

I've been a naturalized Swiss 32 years, I think I'd have to do something very serious to warrant being thrown out of the country. It's not in my nature to murder, steal or beat up old ladies. I did get caught without a ticket on the train though once. Has a law been passed?


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About "If you like it here and want to make it your home, just be a decent citizen. "

I originally posted this as a reminder to the EF members who are naturalised Swiss & also support SVP policies.

The reminder is "be careful what you wish for" & maybe as a naturalised Swiss you are not so safe as you thought.

Also as a reminder that if you do like it here and do make it your home then be careful not to make any mistakes that could cause you "to be sent away...."
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Old 26.06.2012, 13:31
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Re: SVP bid to create second class citizens

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I've been a naturalized Swiss 32 years, I think I'd have to do something very serious to warrant being thrown out of the country. It's not in my nature to murder, steal or beat up old ladies. I did get caught without a ticket on the train though once. Has a law been passed?
That's precisely the point. Why on earth should you be stripped of your Swiss passport that describes your citizenship as "Swiss", and be issued one that describes your citizenship as "Naturalised Swiss"? The only reason I can think of is "in preparation for further measures down the road", such as giving the vote, or the right to sign for a referendum, to Swiss-by-birth citizens only.

And that's why this latest proposal is so outrageous.

BTW it's not as if this amendment was proposed by some isolated loonies on a daytime talk show either. It was put to the vote in the Zurich cantonal parliament by the SVP group leaders (and defeated, with the Green-Liberal party voting with SVP and everybody else agains).
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