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-   -   Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/151193-kill-stray-cats-swiss-environment-official.html)

rob1 12.07.2012 10:12

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by smoky (Post 1606396)
In the Emirates, cats are completely feral. They also breed incredibly, as no-one seems the least concerned.


people mentality is also different and that would explain a lot

Treverus 12.07.2012 10:15

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by meloncollie (Post 1606338)
Yet we do not afford the same to owners of other pets . Dogs are not allowed to act 'according their nature', as the law says that once we bring a dog into human society the dog must abide by human rules.

Key difference: Dogs according to their nature would hunt in packs and kill humans. Cats that are big enough to pose a threat for our lives are of course regulated, no?

Principia Discordia 12.07.2012 10:44

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1606408)
Key difference: Dogs according to their nature would hunt in packs and kill humans. Cats that are big enough to pose a threat for our lives are of course regulated, no?

What? Where I grew up in rural Connecticut, pretty much every dog roamed free, and they didn't form packs and hunt humans.

The requirement to keep my dog leashed or under my direct control in the woods has nothing to do with protecting humans, it has everything to do with protecting wildlife from being harassed and killed by my dog, something which cats do with impunity. I'm not allowed to let my dog shit and piss wherever it pleases, but in appropriate areas where I then (gladly) have to pick up and dispose of the shit. It's my duty, and rightfully so, to keep my dog away from people who don't like dogs, or just don't want to be around a dog for whatever reason, and I take that very seriously. I can't even imagine turning a blind eye while my dog kills things indiscriminately, shits in someone's vegetable garden, pisses on peoples' belongings, and then gets killed by car or wild animal because I chose to abdicate my responsibility to care for and protect said animal.

Treverus 12.07.2012 11:29

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Principia Discordia (Post 1606438)
What? Where I grew up in rural Connecticut, pretty much every dog roamed free, and they didn't form packs and hunt humans.

There was probably plenty of space per dog in Conneticut and the dogs had all owners who feed them well.

There are places in this world which have unfortunately plenty of hungry stray dogs and I for one do not want to face a pack of them alone.

I do not want to drag this into a catlover vs. doglover discussion, but it is pretty obvious that there are reasons why dogs are legally treated differently from cats, especially when it comes to liability questions - because dogs are on average much bigger and have caused much more severe accidents than cats. These laws were not made for the pet mop-on-legs that some ladies carry around in the cities, but the more traditional and sizeable Swiss variants. I know somebody who had to put their beloved Bernese dog to sleep as it repeatedly would break free and attack sheep. Sure do cats technically the same, but the chance that somebody sues you for your cat killing a mouse is a magnitude smaller...

When it comes to the forest - sure, cats will hunt rodents and birds, that's why they will get shot if they roam free deep in a forest. But the number of dog walkers on a weekend a pure stress for any game. You don't need to leash your dog to make sure it does not kill a boar - that's not going to happen unless you have a seriously scary dog... it is to keep the too large number of dogs limited to the hiking routes and make sure that the game has enough space to retreat. I enjoyed watching deer in the Altstetter Wald. Regularly seen them when walking or jogging in the early evenings on weekdays - never seen a sign of them on a weekend.

amogles 12.07.2012 11:32

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Principia Discordia (Post 1606438)
What? Where I grew up in rural Connecticut, pretty much every dog roamed free, and they didn't form packs and hunt humans.

The requirement to keep my dog leashed or under my direct control in the woods has nothing to do with protecting humans, it has everything to do with protecting wildlife from being harassed and killed by my dog, something which cats do with impunity. I'm not allowed to let my dog shit and piss wherever it pleases, but in appropriate areas where I then (gladly) have to pick up and dispose of the shit. It's my duty, and rightfully so, to keep my dog away from people who don't like dogs, or just don't want to be around a dog for whatever reason, and I take that very seriously. I can't even imagine turning a blind eye while my dog kills things indiscriminately, shits in someone's vegetable garden, pisses on peoples' belongings, and then gets killed by car or wild animal because I chose to abdicate my responsibility to care for and protect said animal.

Only it's not in the nature of a cat to allow it's life to be micromanaged the way we do with dogs. saying the problem would be solved if people treated cats like dogs is sort of missing the fundamentals of cat nature.

Quite besides which, I walk in the forests quite a lot. And I've hardly ever seen a cat there, feral or domesticated. I see cats in suburban back streets. In the forest I see foxes, hedgehogs, deer, boars and such animals but hardly ever cats. People who say cats are decimating wild bids in the forerst obviously don't go the forest very often.

And yes, cats kill mice in suburban gardens. But those are not natural habitats. They are controlled habitats. Those mice are they because they are eating stuff humans put there (like food or rubbish or things that humans plant in their gardens). So cats (fed and bred by humans) are going into an a garden (artificial habitat controlled by humans) and killing mice (that are only there because of stuff humans do). I really don't see where damage to nature comes into this. It's one man-made thing against another.

Principia Discordia 12.07.2012 13:04

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1606495)
Only it's not in the nature of a cat to allow it's life to be micromanaged the way we do with dogs. saying the problem would be solved if people treated cats like dogs is sort of missing the fundamentals of cat nature..

Cats are perfectly capable of living indoors and being happy, and if you feel that your cat must go outside, then provide your cat with a safe outdoor space where they don't intrude on anyone else and are kept out of harm's way. If you can't provide your cat with such a space or don't want to keep your cat indoors, then maybe you shouldn't own a cat.

That's why I pick up my dog's shit and train him not to bark and jump, after all, it isn't a safety issue, it ensures that as a respectful pet owner, my choice to own a pet doesn't negatively affect anyone else.

I see cats in the forest all the time, I run through the woods 3 or 4 times a week, and I live in one of the less densely populated regions of Kt. Zürich. Also, you know full well it isn't an issue of just mice, it's also an issue of lizards, birds, squirrels, and other "non-pest" animals that find their natural home in suburban areas. Considering the fast majority of cats roaming around rural areas are owned and well-fed, they take away food from wild animals that need it to survive, food that the cats don't need and food that, when eaten by cats, can spread harmful, sometimes even fatal parasites to humans.

meloncollie 12.07.2012 14:32

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
I don't think anyone would advocate treating cats like dogs - but rather that there should be greater responsibility placed on the shoulders of pet cat owner to address the problem of straying and the resulting semi-feral overpopulation and environmental problems.

Toward that end, I'd like to see a couple simple measures - as much for protection of pet cats as for any other reason:

- Chipping would indentify a pet cat - would you not rather require the forester/hunter/finder to have the cat scanned and returned to the owner than to give the finder license to shoot it?

- If one chooses to keep one's cat as an outdoor cat, the cat must then be neutered. If I understand the argument correctly, a large part of the problem is unchecked breeding - with the offspring often left to turn semi-feral. Requiring outdoor cats to be neutered is common sense, really. Keep the pet population in check, and the other environmental issues will eventually resolve themselves.

When an unchipped cat is found it would then be deemed feral - catch, castrate, release.

smoky 12.07.2012 15:23

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rob1 (Post 1606403)
people mentality is also different and that would explain a lot

Ja, well, it seems people then should also respect the Swiss attitude to cats roaming freely?

I sort-of believe, in my microscopic tunnel vision view of the world in general that Switzerland has been safe-guarding it`s natural wild-life in a pretty organised way, but now things are getting a little bit out of control.

Eight years ago I never saw anything in the newspapers about pets being dumped at holiday times ....... now it`s in every daily/weekly paper - pleas to please not dump pets, in forests, in cardboard boxes, on high-ways, left in gardens without care.

A big hoo-ha about cats. What about other exotic type pets? Domesticated rabbits dumped in forest? Little exotic birds are also being found in forests and garden this time of the year - no way to trace if they were dumped or simply flew out the window.

Someone I know had a "pet" Python - it got too large for their apartment, and it was "given away" (it had become vicious and was over 2 m long!). I somehow have the feeling this was dumped in the forest - happy days to come, after it hibernates in winters, and continues to grow!!!!! Watch ouot for a very big "log" that moves when out walking!

I would say it`s time for EVERY pet to be registered and controlled.

Laertes 12.07.2012 15:41

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by meloncollie (Post 1606693)
[...]
- Chipping would indentify a pet cat - would you not rather require the forester/hunter/finder to have the cat scanned and returned to the owner than to give the finder license to shoot it?

Catching a cat is actually not that easy (you need to get quit close...) and require much more time than shooting them. Thus I do not think, that your solution is possible.

Quote:

[...]
When an unchipped cat is found it would then be deemed feral - catch, castrate, release.
Why should straying cats be released again? There is intact a substantial difference between feral cats and house cats. Feral cats are indigenous species and are bigger than house cats.

In my opinion all outdoor cats should be required to where collar with bells attached, such that they will kill less animals. Pet cats kill animals out of fun, even if they are fed. Thus such a collar could really reduce the impact of the cats on the environment.

TidakApa 12.07.2012 15:52

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
There is a significant difference between the words:
  • To Kill, and
  • To Cull
equally, it does not surprise me that "The Local" doesn't know the difference.

This is intentional inflamatory p1ss poor journalism as usual.

When a population of anything gets out of control it will eventually do harm to itself and to others.

Bringing these numbers back under control (selectively) ensures the survival of the species and benefits the surounding environment.


This is not a news article to say that the Swiss are going to shoot your cat. As others have said, put a collar on your cat.

Oldhand mentioned earlier that Cats are killed in regional Australia as they threaten the indigineous species. This is true.
Cats are natural born predators and can wipe out hundreds of species if left uncontrolled.

The object of "culling" a population is not to 'wipe them out'.... that's impossible.
But to bring the population back under control.

When 'culling' a population of kangaroo's, you have to decide if they are a threat to themselves and the surrounding animal population.
To bring the numbers under control it is best to target the weaker smaller bucks and does to preserve the genetic strength of the kangaroo population.
When the average count is back in line with the remaining vegetation and the numbers have been "thinned from the bottom", then the cull stops, and the population is left to recover as climatic conditions improve.


I don't see 'culling' a stray cat population to preserve the biodiversity of a native forest as being a bad thing.

Bucentaure 12.07.2012 15:53

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1606288)
The line is drawn at 200 meters... really simple.

I do not get this discussion, this is nothing new at all but has been the same in most European countries for decades.
...

No, this is just Germany. Switzerland is different, thank God.

Principia Discordia 12.07.2012 16:02

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
No, Switzerland isn't different. It is legal for hunters to shoot cats without collars that are a certain number of yards (I think 200) away from buildings, just as they can shoot dogs running through the woods. Just because they can do it, doesn't mean they do, obviously.

amogles 12.07.2012 16:03

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Laertes (Post 1606796)
Why should straying cats be released again? There is intact a substantial difference between feral cats and house cats. Feral cats are indigenous species and are bigger than house cats.

No, those are wild cats. Feral cats are the descendants of house cats that have returned to a wild lifefstyle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_cat

amogles 12.07.2012 16:05

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Laertes (Post 1606796)
Pet cats kill animals out of fun, even if they are fed.

A bit like the British aristocracy then?

Principia Discordia 12.07.2012 16:07

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1606813)
No, those are wild cats. Feral cats are the descendants of house cats that have returned to a wild lifefstyle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_cat

There's also very few true wild cats left in Switzerland, around 500, mostly in Jura. You can see some at the wildpark in the Sihlwald, pretty cool animals. :)

Guest 24.07.2012 22:13

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
In today's news:

http://www.tagesschau.sf.tv/Nachrich...s-Leben-schwer

Bucentaure 24.07.2012 23:23

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
... as from today's SPON

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/n...-a-846072.html


The cause for a 50% death rate in local bird population is due to monoculture and the cultivation of corn.

No cats mentioned.

Sbrinz 25.07.2012 00:17

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
The poor man was misquoted, by the newspaper "Le Matin"

http://www.beobachter.ch/familie/hau...einschlaefern/

I did not say that.
In the e-mail exchange with an animal rights I have written, in terms of species conservation for wildlife,
it was a bad idea to release trapped feral cats again. It would be better to remove them in civilized manner,
then put them to sleep.

In the newspaper "Le Matin" it was then reported,

"The Federal Office for the Environment to call for the shooting of cats". This is simply wrong.

Principia Discordia 25.07.2012 09:50

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucentaure (Post 1617318)
... as from today's SPON

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/n...-a-846072.html


The cause for a 50% death rate in local bird population is due to monoculture and the cultivation of corn.

No cats mentioned.

Are you saying that cats don't have a devastating impact on wildlife? They're by far Europe's most widespread predator. This is an article about the impact of certain farming techniques on wild bird populations, if you'd like to read studies about the impact cats have on wild birds and other small wildlife, I (or google, for that matter) can provide you with hours and hours of fascinating reading material.

Here's a sample of some cat-related facts:

A recent study in the UK, for example, showed an estimated 9 million cats, 38 times more than the fox population. Those 9 million cats kill an estimated 92 million small animals, including 29 million birds and 5 million reptiles and amphibians. Cats are responsible for the extinction of 33 species of birds. There's absolutely nothing natural about this many predators roaming around, killing things needlessly and spreading disease unchecked.

amogles 25.07.2012 09:57

Re: Kill stray cats: Swiss environment official
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Principia Discordia (Post 1617499)
A recent study in the UK, for example, showed an estimated 9 million cats, 38 times more than the fox population. Those 9 million cats kill an estimated 92 million small animals, including 29 million birds and 5 million reptiles and amphibians. Cats are responsible for the extinction of 33 species of birds. There's absolutely nothing natural about this many predators roaming around, killing things needlessly and spreading disease unchecked.

Just to gain some perspectrive on this. Do you have any idea how many farmers there are and how many species they have wiped out in the last 100 years? And they actually get subsidies for doing it.


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