Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 19.09.2012, 14:24
dino's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,663
Groaned at 35 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 1,279 Times in 628 Posts
dino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
If they really want to put a stop to banking secrecy then it should be done all over the world, otherwise people will just move their money elsewhere where they can legally hide their cash.
Just to be clear, no politician really wants an end to banking secrecy.
they just want to get rid of banking secrecy for the hoi polloi.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank dino for this useful post:
  #22  
Old 19.09.2012, 14:29
Aeneas's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 1,092
Groaned at 41 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 1,110 Times in 542 Posts
Aeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
However nobody touched Switzerland because everybody had advantages both Nazi Germans (use of financial reserves, railway system)with the tolerance of Swiss people ( i don't raise the point whether this was ethical or not) and the allies.
The main reason is because they lost the war before they got round to it.
Quote:
Having lived in NL, UK when i deposited a relatively large amount of money within 5 days (in NL) i got a notice from the tax office to go and explain where i found the money. This is to prevent money laundering etc..in Switzerland this is not the case (at least to my knowledge).
Of course, to a degree you're correct, but essentially such measures have to also be weighed against personal freedom and there are limits to how far the "if you've nothing to hide, you shouldn't have a problem with it" argument can go before you're effectively living in a distopia.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 19.09.2012, 14:53
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 10,389
Groaned at 249 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 18,830 Times in 6,890 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
Switzerland is neutral. If we use our law for business abroad, we impose our law abroad. This is not neutral. As I explained, if you apply the banking secrecy to people who do not live in Switzerland, you run into problems eventually.

So my opinion is, we do not bend over to foreign governments. But we stop applying our laws abroad.
Switzerland does not and has never imposed Swiss law abroad. At least I cannot come up with an example. If foreigners or foreign companies come to Switzerland to bank or do any other form of business are they of course within the Swiss jurisdiction, period.

Otherwise could all those Arabs visiting Geneva in summer expect to be treated according to Sharia law, all Americans could drive cars through Switzerland when they are 16 but only buy a beer when 21, all Dutch could smoke pot... your idea of neutrality just does not make sense.

I personally do not agree how Switzerland has made it's money from fairly obvious tax fraudsters. And I had plenty of discussions with my Swiss friends on the various data CDs as I find it fully ok if Germany applies German law within their country for their citizens... and we consider tax dodging a crime - because nobody can seriously claim that the several hundred thousand German private banking clients in Switzerland all really forget to declare their taxes correctly. But I strongly disagree that Switzerland should just tell any country whatever they want to know about their nationals business in Switzerland. That's just a very extreme idea and frankly quite the opposite of neutrality: Switzerland would take side with ruling governments against private people as well as institutions. Since not all ruling governments are as democratic, good and free as Switzerland is this damn far away from neutral.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #24  
Old 19.09.2012, 15:24
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 60
Groaned at 13 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 37 Times in 13 Posts
nikokons has earned some respectnikokons has earned some respect
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

''Loose the war'' before you fight it is a rather simplistic approach.. check Bergier commision outcome even if that alone is not entirely the case.
Some say the WWII may well have ended 2-3 years earlier had the swiss destroyed their railway system-not allowing the nazis to use it and many many other bank related issues.

Quote:
View Post
The main reason is because they lost the war before they got round to it.
Of course, to a degree you're correct, but essentially such measures have to also be weighed against personal freedom and there are limits to how far the "if you've nothing to hide, you shouldn't have a problem with it" argument can go before you're effectively living in a distopia.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 19.09.2012, 15:27
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 60
Groaned at 13 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 37 Times in 13 Posts
nikokons has earned some respectnikokons has earned some respect
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

The problem arises not about Swiss banks not giving details to the authorities of other countries but not helping judicial authorities of other countries when a warrant is issued about a suspect having money in Swiss banks and here we can talk not only about tax-fraud..but drug money etc. So it is not so simple.

Quote:
View Post
Switzerland does not and has never imposed Swiss law abroad. At least I cannot come up with an example. If foreigners or foreign companies come to Switzerland to bank or do any other form of business are they of course within the Swiss jurisdiction, period.

Otherwise could all those Arabs visiting Geneva in summer expect to be treated according to Sharia law, all Americans could drive cars through Switzerland when they are 16 but only buy a beer when 21, all Dutch could smoke pot... your idea of neutrality just does not make sense.

I personally do not agree how Switzerland has made it's money from fairly obvious tax fraudsters. And I had plenty of discussions with my Swiss friends on the various data CDs as I find it fully ok if Germany applies German law within their country for their citizens... and we consider tax dodging a crime - because nobody can seriously claim that the several hundred thousand German private banking clients in Switzerland all really forget to declare their taxes correctly. But I strongly disagree that Switzerland should just tell any country whatever they want to know about their nationals business in Switzerland. That's just a very extreme idea and frankly quite the opposite of neutrality: Switzerland would take side with ruling governments against private people as well as institutions. Since not all ruling governments are as democratic, good and free as Switzerland is this damn far away from neutral.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 19.09.2012, 15:39
Aeneas's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 1,092
Groaned at 41 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 1,110 Times in 542 Posts
Aeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
''Loose the war'' before you fight it is a rather simplistic approach.. check Bergier commision outcome even if that alone is not entirely the case.
Some say the WWII may well have ended 2-3 years earlier had the swiss destroyed their railway system-not allowing the nazis to use it and many many other bank related issues.
Arguable. What is not is that Germany did intend to eventually invade. Railways and banks may have given them further reason to delay such an annexation, but they ultimately would not have halted it.

Germany had enough to worry about without having to subdue yet another nation that they could happily leave for later.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 19.09.2012, 16:34
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: ZŁrich
Posts: 11
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 12 Times in 7 Posts
LueTm has made some interesting contributions
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
Switzerland does not and has never imposed Swiss law abroad. At least I cannot come up with an example. If foreigners or foreign companies come to Switzerland to bank or do any other form of business are they of course within the Swiss jurisdiction, period.
I know what you mean. But an example would be: If an American goes to UBS in New York and deposits his money there. On request, UBS denies the IRS any information, based on Swiss law.

For me this is de-facto imposing Swiss law in the US.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank LueTm for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 19.09.2012, 17:07
Aeneas's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 1,092
Groaned at 41 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 1,110 Times in 542 Posts
Aeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
I know what you mean. But an example would be: If an American goes to UBS in New York and deposits his money there. On request, UBS denies the IRS any information, based on Swiss law.
Can they do this? I can see if the records are kept in Switzerland that this could be the case, but I doubt if any local records (of the deposit) could be covered by Swiss law. And I don't think they'd legally get away with keeping no local records (or deleting them). Not being a US citizen, or a UBS client/employee, I can't say though.

And not wanting to be pedantic, but Switzerland does impose Swiss law in the US - just like every other country does elsewhere. What do you think reciprocal agreements on things like support/maintenance payments or extradition treaties are?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 19.09.2012, 18:12
Dark Blue's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Thalwil
Posts: 378
Groaned at 20 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 404 Times in 237 Posts
Dark Blue is considered knowledgeableDark Blue is considered knowledgeableDark Blue is considered knowledgeable
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
I know what you mean. But an example would be: If an American goes to UBS in New York and deposits his money there. On request, UBS denies the IRS any information, based on Swiss law.

For me this is de-facto imposing Swiss law in the US.
It looks like this not the case in France:
French authorities storm Swiss bank's HQ
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 20.09.2012, 00:55
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: St Gallen
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 9 Times in 5 Posts
HoppSuisse has no particular reputation at present
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
I don't know why everyone always targets Switzerland for hiding cash!

USA has Bermuda, France has Monaco and UK has British Virgin Island amongst other tax heavens where one can stash their wealth wrapped in trusts and managed by secretarial companies.

It is the failure of government for not closing these loopholes not the users of these loopholes.

People are seriously annoyed at how governments waste their tax money on superflous things. Instead, they should perfect the basics (housing, infrastructure, utilities, healthcare etc tec) and keep things simple.

If they really want to put a stop to banking secrecy then it should be done all over the world, otherwise people will just move their money elsewhere where they can legally hide their cash.
It is far, far worse then this. In fact it is hypocritical for the US to call Switzerland a tax haven because between the US and the UK they have the majority of the worlds off-shore banking. Switzerland only has a minority share and that is going down fast as people transfer their assets to the East ( Singapur, Dubai, etc.).

Yes thatís right, foreigners ( to the US) do not pay US tax on bank interest earned or capital gains from equities ( stocks and bonds). The game wealthy people play is to start a corporation in a zero tax jurisdiction and invest the corporations money in the US. The US is happy to go along with this plan as long as it is not their citizens who are doing this. Hypocrites.

The US is a tax haven for the rest of the world.

The UK uses the Channel Islands (Jersey, etc.) to invest in the US tax free.

The US is playing a dangerous game by starting a financial war with us because if our system begins to fail we will sell our USD reserves and bonds. This could start a stampede for the exit from the other Central Banks who do not want to be left holding worthless Green Backs. Let us hope it does not come to this.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank HoppSuisse for this useful post:
  #31  
Old 20.09.2012, 02:19
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: bern
Posts: 19
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts
cyndyk06 has earned some respectcyndyk06 has earned some respect
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

My whole issue with the United States and sticking their noses in this issue is that no matter what they do, there will be white collar crimminals who find a way to stash their millions or billions somewhere and somehow, whether that is Switzerland or not, it doesn't matter.

Second, as a US citizen making under 100,000 dollars and having an L permit I am required to have a US residence and that equals, I still pay state income taxes where I do not live and I do not work.

I'm very sorry but I'm afraid the US is simply reaching for things without a real hope that they will not actually gain anything in return in terms of doing away with banking secrecy.

While they believe they are getting after the "Rich", they are actually causing more problems for Americans like myself, who choose to live in another country legally, and in doing so open up another job for an unemployeed american, living in America. In the last year alone i've been kicked out of 3 different banks and have now found a home with Post finance. Luckily

While i'm proud of where I come from, once again I'm digusted by the USA's attempt to find an "easy" fix to problems the country has.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank cyndyk06 for this useful post:
  #32  
Old 20.09.2012, 06:24
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 10,389
Groaned at 249 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 18,830 Times in 6,890 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
I know what you mean. But an example would be: If an American goes to UBS in New York and deposits his money there. On request, UBS denies the IRS any information, based on Swiss law.

For me this is de-facto imposing Swiss law in the US.
This is of course not how it works. The whole point of the entire UBS scandal was that the one thing the guys did illegally was to board a plane and fly to the US to talk to clients. If you want to enjoy Swiss secrecy do you have in fact to move your ass to Switzerland. A guy walking into the UBS in New York won't. (The branch on Grand Cayman would be the better choice...)

That's the entire principle of jurisdiction.

I live in a place where I am literally surrounded by international banks. No matter at which one I open my account will I absolutely get one complying to the local laws. Just because it says Swiss bank on the door does not mean that you are under Swiss jurisdiction. A bank is not an embassy.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #33  
Old 20.09.2012, 07:08
Wallabies's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 3,221
Groaned at 318 Times in 183 Posts
Thanked 3,314 Times in 1,577 Posts
Wallabies has a reputation beyond reputeWallabies has a reputation beyond reputeWallabies has a reputation beyond reputeWallabies has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
I know what you mean. But an example would be: If an American goes to UBS in New York and deposits his money there. On request, UBS denies the IRS any information, based on Swiss law.

For me this is de-facto imposing Swiss law in the US.
This is just UBS being a arsehole note Switzerland imposing their laws!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 20.09.2012, 09:41
Dark Blue's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Thalwil
Posts: 378
Groaned at 20 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 404 Times in 237 Posts
Dark Blue is considered knowledgeableDark Blue is considered knowledgeableDark Blue is considered knowledgeable
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
This is just UBS being a arsehole note Switzerland imposing their laws!
They are not really a commercial bank,but the BIS in basel has an immunity to any law around the world.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 20.09.2012, 09:46
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zurich Unterland
Posts: 3,318
Groaned at 145 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 4,850 Times in 1,930 Posts
smoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

I was confused, and then I realised the thread title was not "The end of baking secrecy for foreigners"!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank smoky for this useful post:
  #36  
Old 20.09.2012, 09:49
jerallie's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Goldiwil
Posts: 615
Groaned at 53 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 523 Times in 179 Posts
jerallie has a reputation beyond reputejerallie has a reputation beyond reputejerallie has a reputation beyond reputejerallie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

To me the big issue here is the fact that the US is one of only 2 countries in the world that tax non-residents on their foreign earned income. This causes a huge headache for the non-residents as well as the countries they are living and working in. I personally understand that if you are a citizen and a resident of the US and you are using roads, schools, government services, parks etc, that you should be prevented from hiding your money and evading paying more taxes. You are using the services that taxes pay for and therefore should pay. But non-residents don't use the US services, so why are they taxed? They need to eliminate that requirement, then it would be smaller pool of people to go after.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank jerallie for this useful post:
  #37  
Old 20.09.2012, 10:29
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SZ
Posts: 8,737
Groaned at 19 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 19,220 Times in 6,155 Posts
meloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
To me the big issue here is the fact that the US is one of only 2 countries in the world that tax non-residents on their foreign earned income. This causes a huge headache for the non-residents as well as the countries they are living and working in. I personally understand that if you are a citizen and a resident of the US and you are using roads, schools, government services, parks etc, that you should be prevented from hiding your money and evading paying more taxes. You are using the services that taxes pay for and therefore should pay. But non-residents don't use the US services, so why are they taxed? They need to eliminate that requirement, then it would be smaller pool of people to go after.
I agree with you, and am angry as hell about the current situation. But the cold hard reality is that eliminating citizenship based taxation is never going to happen.

We overseas Americans are low-hanging fruit. We pay a whole lot of taxes, money the US needs - and we don't have the political presence to make our politicians care about our votes. Completely unfair, I agree - but politically a no-brainer.

I fear that the best we can work towards is an understanding among the powers that be of the difficulties that FATCA et. al. is creating in the domestic economy - leading to a more moderate stance in the future.

Which is why this election is so problematic for me... but that's another thread.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank meloncollie for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 20.09.2012, 10:32
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 10,389
Groaned at 249 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 18,830 Times in 6,890 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
To me the big issue here is the fact that the US is one of only 2 countries in the world that tax non-residents on their foreign earned income.
This is without a doubt a big issue for Americans abroad - but frankly not the issue at all why most countries would love to know what their nationals have in banks aborad...that would be the various forms of capital gains tax. And the capital gains on secret Swiss bank accounts seem to be prone to get forgotten on tax declarations...
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 20.09.2012, 10:53
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 15,675
Groaned at 252 Times in 213 Posts
Thanked 13,087 Times in 7,364 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

Quote:
View Post
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Yes thatís right, foreigners ( to the US) do not pay US tax on bank interest earned or capital gains from equities ( stocks and bonds).
Not accurate, the US deducts 15% withholding tax on all dividends , even you sign a form as a non resident . You may be able to reclaim some or all of this tax in your home country, depending on your marginal tax rate or have a further liability.
Capital gains taxes are paid in the place of residence, TBH with the financial crisis many people will have lots of losses to offset for years to come.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 20.09.2012, 10:56
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 22,208
Groaned at 1,166 Times in 913 Posts
Thanked 25,083 Times in 12,011 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The end of banking secrecy for foreigners

As the US taxes non-resident citizens, then to be fair they should NOT tax resident non-citizens!

(like that is going to happen)

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Switzerland wants to ease banking secrecy The Local Swiss news via The Local 0 18.01.2012 18:47
Dog and House sitter required for 1 month - end of Nov-end of Dec caninsui Jobs offered 8 14.11.2011 13:10
Switzerland and USA: banking secrecy & relations Ittigen International affairs/politics 0 23.02.2011 14:01
Honest Justificiations for "Banking Secrecy"? washbrol Finance/banking/taxation 45 10.07.2009 15:54
Six Days of War, 42 years of secrecy Dead in the Water jrspet International affairs/politics 25 07.06.2009 19:46


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0