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  #61  
Old 24.09.2012, 18:12
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

And this was my own case, as well. I have a few thousand CDs and a fair amount of music from Amazon/iTunes. While maybe not statistically very significant, I think I do represent an consumer with disposable income from a typical market (ie North America/Europe).

Of course, China and Third World is a different issue.

Once again, the RIAA is going after the easy targets, not the right ones...

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Indeed, I heard the exact opposite, that downloaders end up buying more music than regular joes.

Certainly most of my music is payed for, and I still buy heaps of films on bluray, once they arrive at a sensible price, with all the features finally included.
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  #62  
Old 24.09.2012, 18:20
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Personally I find it absurd to pay some fee every time I buy something like an iPod, and to see that fee is being distributed among music labels according to a key the big labels made up, the logic behind it being that I probably stole music anyway so I might as well pay some now. That logic only encourages further illegal downloads as even those who never stole anything feel they are now entitled to something for that money.
And who are they paying anyway? How do they know what music I play? Do they pay out money to the small time musicians? I don't want any of my money going to DJ Bobo.
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  #63  
Old 24.09.2012, 18:20
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Will Switzerland bend yet again to the heat seeking USA ?

Switzerland just made it to the anti-piracy watchlist, ranked together with Italy.

Swissinfo DE

A Schiff
hot air pushed by lobbyists greasing the palms....

The issue of copyright should be appropriately addressed if they want to curb piracy. The Economist has an interesting article http://www.economist.com/node/21561885
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  #64  
Old 24.09.2012, 18:20
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Simply because the item is intangible and can be infinitely reproduced does not diminish the fact that you are taking something that the owner did not wish you to have either at all or for free. If something truly belongs to someone, they have the right to determine who gets a copy of it and under what terms. If you ignore those terms and take that thing against the owner's wishes, regardless of your intended use, you are doing something wrong. Further, by illegally downloading the IP, you are almost completely precluding the possibility that you will later pay for that which you are using. Very few downloaders actually go back and purchase the music, book, or movie they've downloaded, although many claim they do.
It does diminish the damage done though. You compared downloading to stealing a diamond which clearly isn't the case. Compared to many countries the digital offers here for consumers are very limited and way above the market rate set by them. Before they complain about taking financial losses, they should makes sure their products are available here for a fair price.

What we should also keep in mind though is that all these big studios have been fighting the digital revolution for decades. Had we kept doing what the studios wanted we probably not have itunes and netflix etc. Consumers forced the studios to offer us digital content by using Napster and the like. I'm also of the opinion Swiss consumers need to force the studios to offer us the products many other countries have had for years. It may not be correct but I feel no guilt in downloading for free. And for the record I still do also buy films and music as well

Here's a link to a 3 year old report claiming people who download music for free are 10 times more likely to buy music than those that do not.
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  #65  
Old 24.09.2012, 18:23
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

would you work for free? of course not. so why would you expect singers or actors not to be paid for their work? this argument about switzerland being too small to make a difference is lame.
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  #66  
Old 24.09.2012, 18:40
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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would you work for free? of course not. so why would you expect singers or actors not to be paid for their work? this argument about switzerland being too small to make a difference is lame.
If your sole input is regurgitating in brief terms what has already been discussed in more depth by other people...

The argument about Switzerland being targeted is relevant because they are not a significant contributor in a real sense vs most other countries. They're just currently an easy target to be bullied in the wake of a lot of US attention.
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  #67  
Old 24.09.2012, 18:43
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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If your sole input is regurgitating in brief terms what has already been discussed in more depth by other people...

The argument about Switzerland being targeted is relevant because they are not a significant contributor in a real sense vs most other countries. They're just currently an easy target to be bullied in the wake of a lot of US attention.
would you work for free? No. So why should others?

why should Switzerland be an exception because its small?
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  #68  
Old 24.09.2012, 19:04
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

In fact, the whole issue of downloading is more about the labels and THEIR antiquated business model, than it is about artists and their right to be paid.

I am sure that most of us who listen to music have NOTHING against the artists. But we do take issue with the intermediaries who refuse to make it easy for us to purchase and USE as we see fit. I don't think the labes serve the artist OR the customer; so the gov't should quit taking the lobbyist money in exchange for protection granted by antiquated copyright and IP laws. In a nutshell, that is my issue.

fduvall

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would you work for free? of course not. so why would you expect singers or actors not to be paid for their work? this argument about switzerland being too small to make a difference is lame.
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  #69  
Old 24.09.2012, 19:20
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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would you work for free? No. So why should others?

why should Switzerland be an exception because its small?
Name me one regularly downloaded music artist that is working for free.
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  #70  
Old 24.09.2012, 19:42
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

Many of my most listened to artists wholly support downloading their music (and music in general). But they come from the 'artist' section of music rather than the music industry business.
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  #71  
Old 24.09.2012, 19:44
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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I fail to see why it is a problem if the big labels are worried... They should be worried. Skype dealt a body blow to the telcos and they are trying to adapt. Many technologies have chipped away at the "big label" model which was flawed from the beginning and used to exploit artists and the public.
I fully agree with this. We can debate, all we want, the finer points of the morality of downloading copyrighted material, but at the end of the day this is not going to convince many people.

Problem is that the entertainment industry really does not seem to have a coherent strategy where it comes to dealing with this issue. The legal approach will never make more than a dent in it - some will be scared off, but most give little thought to it because the chances of falling foul of such a case, for the average downloader, are akin to getting run over by a bus.

Obiviously they realized that this approach was only scratching the surface, but when they tried to push draconian laws in both the US and EU, they ended up overreaching as the public finally backlashed against impositions sponsored by an industry that they had little sympathy for.

Technology to prevent downloading has been laughable. I can think of at least one method that would make BitTorrent unusable that they don't even seem to have thought of - instead favouring copy protection which has, from region-locked DVD's to other 'copy protected' media, failed again and again, often cracked often within hours of their initial deployment.

Then there's simple stuff they could be doing - like delaying the release of movies and TV series until it can be done simultaneously Worldwide, instead of allowing gaps of six months or more that encourage much of the downloads. Or adopting innovative business models employing new media, that target the very people who have often been shown to be happy to pay if the option is there.

And of course, they probably have to accept that profit margins won't be quite as big as they used to me. Every industry has to accept at some stage that the good times are over.

I suspect what's happening is the same thing I saw in the mobile operators over the last ten years. Huge corporations, with executives cocooned in a stagnant, bureaucratic culture, grimly seeking to keep control over a static business model that millions of individuals and smaller firms are looking to bypass, and which ultimately happened with the advent of the smartphone.

As has been pointed out, they have to evolve or die and so far all we've seen is a lot of evolutionary dead ends being attempted.
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  #72  
Old 25.09.2012, 01:59
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

I cry for the poor record companies and movie studios as well as millionaire Pop and movie stars. They won't be able to afford that third mansion.
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  #73  
Old 25.09.2012, 06:23
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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You compared downloading to stealing a diamond which clearly isn't the case.
Oh, I think it's fair enough. In both cases you get something of little intrinsic value with an artificially high price for free.
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  #74  
Old 25.09.2012, 08:21
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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None, but in that case you don't own a copy of the book anymore.

Look, Switzerland picking or not, listening to music that you haven't paid for is cheating the artist that you like.

The US is not "bullying" Switzerland. Actually they know us pretty well (judging from what I read on their internet page about Switzerland). They are pointing out were we have potential for development.
Sorry, but I disagree. The US is bullying everywhere and every way they can. The examples are increasing by the day: Assange/foreign earned income tax credit/Switzerland bankers & banking industry, and now this.

It is sour grapes because the US likes to be so controlling of everything, which is all too common place. I remember being in Paris in 86 watching Lemond winning his first TDF, on the screens on the tv's in the trams they did a panning of a park and showed women topless. I thought I died and went to heaven, and quickly realized this would never happen in the US.

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do i need to go on?
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  #75  
Old 25.09.2012, 09:53
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Name me one regularly downloaded music artist that is working for free.
the music and films you are not paying for by illegally pirating on the internet is artists working for free.

Last edited by MidfieldGeneral; 25.09.2012 at 10:09.
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  #76  
Old 25.09.2012, 09:54
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Many of my most listened to artists wholly support downloading their music (and music in general). But they come from the 'artist' section of music rather than the music industry business.
there is an element of truth about this but they still want to be paid for their services
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  #77  
Old 25.09.2012, 10:20
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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And this was my own case, as well. I have a few thousand CDs and a fair amount of music from Amazon/iTunes.
I think torrenting in situations like this is fully justified.

If you have a large collection like that, paid for, why should you spend hours ripping and scanning yourself, when you own the rights to use, and just want it on your iPod or whatever. As long as the people you are sharing with in the torrent are in the same situation (sticky ground here I know), uploading is fine too. Certainly there should be no problems at all with just leaching the stuff. You are just sharing the effort of ripping, and not the content.

I am sure that a good few of the so called pirates here (15%?), are just honest people downloading rips to save the hassle of DIY. Switzerland is likely to have a much higher percentage of such legitimate torrent users than other countries. So I think the figures are skewed against us.
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  #78  
Old 25.09.2012, 10:21
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

Ah, the rationalization machine continues to churn. Oh, faux outrage! Oh, poor Switzerland and its laissez-faire attitude towards intellectual property rights! How dare they not allow me free music! If you don't like a record company's or a software company's "pricing model" (i.e. it's not free), then simply don't buy it. But don't argue that you're pirating it is 'sticking it to the man' and 'forcing change'. It's doing nothing of the sort. The only thing it's doing is showing that you want something and you don't want to have to pay for it.
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  #79  
Old 25.09.2012, 10:22
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Ah, the rationalization machine continues to churn. If you don't like a record company's or a software company's "pricing model" (i.e. it's not free), then simply don't buy it. But don't argue that you're pirating it is 'sticking it to the man' and 'forcing change'. It's doing nothing of the sort. The only thing it's doing is showing that you want something and you don't want to have to pay for it.
spot on, I fully agree
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Old 25.09.2012, 10:29
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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there is an element of truth about this but they still want to be paid for their services
That is true, but the attack on illegal downloading is not protecting the artists paycheque, rather the profit streams of the record labels.
I'm pretty certain that record labels are not cutting salaries and not signing as many new acts due to losses from internet pirating. If anything, I think an opposite trend has occurred.
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