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  #81  
Old 25.09.2012, 10:44
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Ah, the rationalization machine continues to churn. Oh, faux outrage! Oh, poor Switzerland and its laissez-faire attitude towards intellectual property rights! How dare they not allow me free music! If you don't like a record company's or a software company's "pricing model" (i.e. it's not free), then simply don't buy it. But don't argue that you're pirating it is 'sticking it to the man' and 'forcing change'. It's doing nothing of the sort. The only thing it's doing is showing that you want something and you don't want to have to pay for it.
the fact is that if, for example, I buy an iPod, part of that money goes is distribuited to the label cartel because they assume I will be pirating some music anyway. So even if I just listen to songs that I composed, played and recorded myself, I am giving them money and they won't let me buy equipment if I won't. So who exactly is the pirate here?
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  #82  
Old 25.09.2012, 10:46
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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That is true, but the attack on illegal downloading is not protecting the artists paycheque, rather the profit streams of the record labels.
I'm pretty certain that record labels are not cutting salaries and not signing as many new acts due to losses from internet pirating. If anything, I think an opposite trend has occurred.
In fact the internet model makes it easier for artists to cut out the middle man and trade directly without signing up with a label.

The internet is helping artists but hurting labels.
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  #83  
Old 25.09.2012, 11:19
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Ah, the rationalization machine continues to churn. Oh, faux outrage! Oh, poor Switzerland and its laissez-faire attitude towards intellectual property rights! How dare they not allow me free music! If you don't like a record company's or a software company's "pricing model" (i.e. it's not free), then simply don't buy it. But don't argue that you're pirating it is 'sticking it to the man' and 'forcing change'. It's doing nothing of the sort. The only thing it's doing is showing that you want something and you don't want to have to pay for it.
Who's the one with faux outrage? Anyway I don't need to rationalise anything. I'm respecting local law. I realise this concept is for some a bit hard to understand
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  #84  
Old 25.09.2012, 11:58
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

I buy enough official CDs and DVDs to cover the minute amout of mostly terrible crap that is d/led from the net. In my mind anyway.

I'll venture the argument that for all the illegal music "taping" in the 80s, CD copying in the 90s and mp3 swapping thereafter, that a bunch of new music has been created and distributed freely and more people have made their money exactly because of the grey underworld of non-official distribution and direct sales by music makers rather than by the big distributors.

For the record (pardon the pun), I do miss hunting down my own purchases in music stores. I remember when I used to get a chance to visit Tower Records in San Francisco at a time when all the American stores sold their CDs in elongated cardboard packaging that took ingenuity to open.
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  #85  
Old 25.09.2012, 12:01
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

Funny how when such a topic comes up, everyone always talks about the music/film industry. The professional porn industry has been virtually crippled by the rise of the internet, file sharing and youtube style websites. Moreover, people realised that they didn't need to pay pornography, they could just make it themselves. Yet despite the situation, you don't get the same level lobbying from the Pornography industry as from that of Music or Films.

Even with the struggle of the porn industry, porn is still readily available and everywhere when one goes on the internet. Won't this be the same for Music? In the end, people are always going to be making good music as it's human nature.
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  #86  
Old 25.09.2012, 12:09
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Funny how when such a topic comes up, everyone always talks about the music/film industry. The professional porn industry has been virtually crippled by the rise of the internet, file sharing and youtube style websites.
I can't seem to get too stimulated worrying about the state of the porn industry.
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  #87  
Old 25.09.2012, 12:13
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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the music and films you are not paying for by illegally pirating on the internet is artists working for free.
Nope, it's not. They are in no way at any point in any real terms "working for free". They are getting paid a shedload of money at the same time as people are downloading their music. I am not in any way saying that makes it "morally right" to download, not at all, but they are always getting paid.

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Ah, the rationalization machine continues to churn. Oh, faux outrage! Oh, poor Switzerland and its laissez-faire attitude towards intellectual property rights! How dare they not allow me free music! If you don't like a record company's or a software company's "pricing model" (i.e. it's not free), then simply don't buy it. But don't argue that you're pirating it is 'sticking it to the man' and 'forcing change'. It's doing nothing of the sort. The only thing it's doing is showing that you want something and you don't want to have to pay for it.
I don't think anyone has argued that they "should" be allowed to download music for free... people who download generally do so knowing full well that they aren't allowed. The question is whether they can justify it to their own themselves, and how they interpret the act. Seems many people can willingly deal with it on their conscience, and if the music industry want to deal with it too then they DO need to change their sales models (as we are slowly starting to see now with improved online music services, including unlimited monthly pricing).
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Old 25.09.2012, 13:12
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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I buy enough official CDs and DVDs to cover the minute amout of mostly terrible crap that is d/led from the net. In my mind anyway.

I'll venture the argument that for all the illegal music "taping" in the 80s, CD copying in the 90s and mp3 swapping thereafter, that a bunch of new music has been created and distributed freely and more people have made their money exactly because of the grey underworld of non-official distribution and direct sales by music makers rather than by the big distributors.

For the record (pardon the pun), I do miss hunting down my own purchases in music stores. I remember when I used to get a chance to visit Tower Records in San Francisco at a time when all the American stores sold their CDs in elongated cardboard packaging that took ingenuity to open.
I agree 100%
As long as you are not making money for example by selling bootleg copies, then I don't see a problem with sharing of music/movies.
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  #89  
Old 25.09.2012, 14:39
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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What statistical evidence do you base this on?
TBH, I haven't found anything to support nor contradict my statement; I'll retract it unless I do find something. The only thing I was actually able to find was the one 3 year old study of the downloading and purchasing behavior of music superfans, which might or might not be reflective of behavior of downloaders as a whole group.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned very much is individual governments' roles in constructing barriers to the free flow of content. Governments want to keep their hands in this because there is the potential for taxable revenues from the sale of content. Also, many countries have independent content rating and censorship systems- what may be appropriate in one country isn't in another, for various reasons. I'm sure that companies like Netflix or Hulu would love to make content available in more markets (they stand to make more profit, right?), but there might be significant legal issues to be overcome.

Lots of pieces to the puzzle, I think...

Clone000, why all the groans?
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  #90  
Old 25.09.2012, 14:46
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

" Nope, it's not. They are in no way at any point in any real terms "working for free". They are getting paid a shedload of money at the same time as people are downloading their music. I am not in any way saying that makes it "morally right" to download, not at all, but they are always getting paid."

If you are clearly pirating an artist's album "X" for free from the internet you are not paying that musician for his album "X" so he is working for free for you in this case.

Would you work for free? No. Would you work double the hours for the same pay? No. Why do you expect creative artists to do the same?
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  #91  
Old 25.09.2012, 15:03
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Would you work for free? No. Would you work double the hours for the same pay? No. Why do you expect creative artists to do the same?
I get this.

Let's all download Justin Beeber stuff for free so he realises he's not getting payed and stops doing it.

Do you know a single example of a musician who stopped because of downloading?

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying the damage is being blown out of proportion.
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  #92  
Old 25.09.2012, 15:03
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" Nope, it's not. They are in no way at any point in any real terms "working for free". They are getting paid a shedload of money at the same time as people are downloading their music. I am not in any way saying that makes it "morally right" to download, not at all, but they are always getting paid."

If you are clearly pirating an artist's album "X" for free from the internet you are not paying that musician for his album "X" so he is working for free for you in this case.

Would you work for free? No. Would you work double the hours for the same pay? No. Why do you expect creative artists to do the same?
Ok, at the risk of over-parroting we'll just agree to disagree on that point, and ignore how silly an analogy to "working double time for free" actually is in this context.
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Old 25.09.2012, 15:04
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I get this.

Let's all download Justin Beeber stuff for free so he realises he's not getting payed and stops doing it.

Do you know a single example of a musician who stopped because of downloading?

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying the damage is being blown out of proportion.
I'm all for stopping Justin Bieber...
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Old 25.09.2012, 15:06
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Ok, at the risk of over-parroting we'll just agree to disagree on that point, and ignore how silly an analogy to "working double time for free" actually is in this context.
you're not disagreeing, you're fleeing! you haven't actually addressed any of my points.

for me pirating music from the internet is stealing. you are not paying the artist for the price of his product. its akin to stealing milk from migros
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Old 25.09.2012, 15:11
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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I get this.

Let's all download Justin Beeber stuff for free so he realises he's not getting payed and stops doing it.

Do you know a single example of a musician who stopped because of downloading?

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying the damage is being blown out of proportion.
The arguments of the terrible damage of downloading are mainly presented by rich record company business reps, and soulless commercial artists.
Real musicians understand, and embrace the power of music downloading as they have a real relationship with their real fans who continue to support them either by buying their music, going to their shows or buying their merchandize. Seems like most people in this forum 1) don't know any real musicians 2) are not real fans
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Old 25.09.2012, 15:11
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for me pirating music from the internet is stealing. you are not paying the artist for the price of his product. its akin to stealing milk from migros
You didn't invent that argument. You stole it from the lawyers of the music industry. Stealing arguments is the same as stealing diamonds. Because of people like you, lawyers are going hungry. Expect to receive a legal summons from Sony Inc. in the next couple of days.
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Old 25.09.2012, 15:13
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You didn't invent that argument. You stole it from the lawyers of the music industry. Stealing arguments is the same as stealing diamonds. Because of people like you, lawyers are going hungry. Expect to receive a legal summons from Sony Inc. in the next couple of days.
why are you happy to pay migros for the milk but not rihanna for her music?
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Old 25.09.2012, 15:19
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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why are you happy to pay migros for the milk but not rihanna for her music?
Why would you pay Migros for the milk, when it was the cow that produced it.

That is an analogy of what record companies do: milk the artists of their creativity, and get most of the benefits from it, then when they are sucked dry, throw them in the grinder and make hamburgers, and also benefit from it.
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Old 25.09.2012, 15:24
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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I can't seem to get too stimulated worrying about the state of the porn industry.
It is a good point, though. In the same way people kind of scoff at the thought of saving the porn industry for what I assume are moral reasons, it's not hard to envisage the same kind of disdain for music labels and movie studios who have been robbing artists blind for decades and are now trying to setup futile and artificial roadblocks. "The age of digital distribution is here and you failed to adapt, what did you think was going to happen, that your profit margins would stay the same, you exploitative swine?" That could be said to any of them.

They would go a long way just by allowing services like Amazon mp3, Itunes, Netflix, and Hulu to ease regional restrictions. Take a look at the Amazon Kindle book store or what artists like Radiohead and Louis C.K. did with the online distribution of their content. Once you make it accessible enough to be undeniable, people will pay. But if you take the piss by limiting content and hiking prices according to region, don't be surprised if people tell you to f-off. In an age where everyone is informed and everything is easily accessible, one of your few trump cards is harnessing the good faith of your consumer base. If it's not there, they'll turn on you in a second and they're not exactly lacking other options.

You don't have to condone or approve of piracy to understand why it's so rampant or that the labels themselves are at least partly to blame. In the current environment it would take a pretty obstinant person to say that piracy is that black and white.
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Old 25.09.2012, 15:27
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Why would you pay Migros for the milk, when it was the cow that produced it.

That is an analogy of what record companies do: milk the artists of their creativity, and get most of the benefits from it, then when they are sucked dry, throw them in the grinder and make hamburgers, and also benefit from it.
artists are not forced to work with record companies and as for the creativity argument (evil record companies sucking the poor artist dry) that is purely subjective and I don't agree with you.

artists benefit from working with record companies, that is why they do it. everytime you pirate music from the internet you are stealing, you're not paying the artist nor the record company for their product.

you can rationalize it as much as you want but you are taking a product without paying for it i.e. stealing.
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