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Old 17.11.2012, 21:33
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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I hope you all get prosecuted one day. There is no excuse for theft whatever way you decide to dress it up. All your IP addresses will be on file...
what theft ? those artists also PROFITED of the internet, of the fact that their work was made public by the internet And if I download something, I do NOT steal it, I simply use a public service
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  #142  
Old 17.11.2012, 21:45
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

If you download something that you know you should be paying for and don't that is theft. The fact that you may download from a site that itself knows what it does is illegal doesn't exempt you.
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Old 17.11.2012, 21:51
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

Its about time the music industry stops acting like a dinosour and catches up with how customers are behaving. The current generation expect easy, cheap access to music whenever. Unless the music industry catches up and deliver they will be the only losers and justifiably so.
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  #144  
Old 17.11.2012, 21:59
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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If you download something that you know you should be paying for and don't that is theft. The fact that you may download from a site that itself knows what it does is illegal doesn't exempt you.
A few amusing memes on piracy, which I am of course categorically against...

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  #145  
Old 17.11.2012, 23:02
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

I think this TED talk was hilarious
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  #146  
Old 17.11.2012, 23:19
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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If you download something that you know you should be paying for and don't that is theft. The fact that you may download from a site that itself knows what it does is illegal doesn't exempt you.
I do not download anything I should be paying for. I know that I do NOT have to pay for things freely on the internet.
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  #147  
Old 17.11.2012, 23:20
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Its about time the music industry stops acting like a dinosour and catches up with how customers are behaving. The current generation expect easy, cheap access to music whenever. Unless the music industry catches up and deliver they will be the only losers and justifiably so.
Dinosaurs disappeared as they failed to turn into crocodiles
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  #148  
Old 17.11.2012, 23:39
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

The "piracy isn't theft because the original is still there" argument is disingenuous. It's theft of intellectual property, it's product which, unless made with the intention of free distribution, is made for the purposes of selling. Making yourself a good copy of something which cost to produce, make available and is the originator's intellectual property for no cost and then arguing "I can so I will" .. meh.

I don't think attitudes to so-called 'free' content is going to change much, though of course I think it should; I would rather not hear the rather poor 'justifications' for it though.


Just out of interest, those people who think some money should be paid for content (if it isn't available for no cost) at a fair price - how do you think the record companies should approach it?

Last edited by Lemanglaise; 17.11.2012 at 23:50.
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  #149  
Old 18.11.2012, 10:30
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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The "piracy isn't theft because the original is still there" argument is disingenuous. It's theft of intellectual property, it's product which, unless made with the intention of free distribution, is made for the purposes of selling. Making yourself a good copy of something which cost to produce, make available and is the originator's intellectual property for no cost and then arguing "I can so I will" .. meh.

I don't think attitudes to so-called 'free' content is going to change much, though of course I think it should; I would rather not hear the rather poor 'justifications' for it though.


Just out of interest, those people who think some money should be paid for content (if it isn't available for no cost) at a fair price - how do you think the record companies should approach it?
I'll pick up on your final comment there, and my answer to that would be that the record companies should stop charging nearly as much for a digital download as they do fully packaged product. As an example I'm looking at the Foo Fighters Wasting Light album in iTunes. Through iTunes it costs 17 chufs while ex libris has the fully packaged product for around 23 chuffs.

First off with digitally distributed media there are no manufacturing costs, no distribution costs, and no middlemen taking their cut should the record company choose to provide their own download service (Apple does take a cut if the product is made available through iTunes). Basically the record companies make a hell of a lot more money per download purchase than they do per physical product purchase.

Secondly the downloaded product is of inferior quality to the packaged product. Most of the time you'll end up 128 or 160kbps compressed music which is OK if you never progress beyond the earphones that came with your iPhone, but on anything better you'll hear the difference. The fully packaged product comes with a digital carrier (CD) that contains completely uncompressed audio enabling you to choose how you encode it for your own uses.

Thirdly DRM. While admittedly there is some stuff available on paid for downloads without it, the vast majority comes with this little ball and chain. This greatly restricts what you can do with the media you have purchased, and often limits the playback to one program, and a limited range of portable devices. There are relatively easy ways around this, but they will end up reducing the quality of the music even more. So, if you want the flexibility to be able to do what you want with what is now yours (you have paid for it after all) Your either have to buy the whole thing again on physical media, or end up torrenting it.

With all that being taken into account the record companies should reduce the cost of the downloaded product to a maximum of 4-5 franks per album. Then there would actually be value for money for the consumer.

Basically, at the moment, the end consumer is being right royally ripped off with paid for music downloads, and therefore it's no surprise that so much music is pirated.

I don't download music, either illegally or legally. I buy the physical media as it allows for greater choice and is far better in terms of quality.
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  #150  
Old 18.11.2012, 11:15
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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I used (OK this is dating me) to listen to the chart show on the radio on a Sunday and tape record from the radio any songs I wanted to tape......

*edit*: or even taping from vinyl
Piracy 80's style:

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  #151  
Old 18.11.2012, 11:25
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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These days people get excellent quality sound with no need or inclination to pay at all.
If you think mp3 at less than 320 kbps is quality, you have poor hearing and/or equipment.

And even at 320, the difference to the original is still audible if you know what to listen for.

Tom
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  #152  
Old 18.11.2012, 11:37
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

320kbps is generally fine unless you are one of the more anal audiophiles. My FLAC copy of Dark Side of the Moon is well used though.
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  #153  
Old 18.11.2012, 11:48
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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320kbps is generally fine unless you are one of the more anal audiophiles. My FLAC copy of Dark Side of the Moon is well used though.
Agreed, however most downloaded stuff is 128 or 160, which is crap!

Tom
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  #154  
Old 18.11.2012, 12:08
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

I don't know. I usually download then purchase if the product is useful. I guess there are issues for the industries but I wouldn't want controls put in place in any country.
As for it being the USA, it's the government and industry not the people driving this (as anywhere else). Pretty sure, the Swiss government would do something similar if their interests were threatened.
I'd like the internet to stay free and loose - it's what makes it so awesome. If I could not download these products (that I eventually purchased) I would never have bought them at all. There are a lot of scams and "empty" products out there. Many an online vendor who would sell something and never accept returns.
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  #155  
Old 18.11.2012, 12:11
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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Agreed, however most downloaded stuff is 128 or 160, which is crap!

Tom
But then again if you look around and see how people are listening to music, and the equipment they're using these days, 128 AAC or 160 MP3 is probably as high as you need to go. Anything more would be a waste of memory, unfortunately.

You'll never be able to appreciate 320Kbps through apple earbuds or a pair of Beats.
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  #156  
Old 18.11.2012, 12:14
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

I've had friends give me copies of stuff that they thought I'd like, and if I did, I go out and buy more of it.

Win-win, as I end up buying stuff that I otherwise wouldn't have.

Tom
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Old 18.11.2012, 12:18
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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But then again if you look around and see how people are listening to music, and the equipment they're using these days, 128 AAC or 160 MP3 is probably as high as you need to go. Anything more would be a waste of memory, unfortunately.

You'll never be able to appreciate 320Kbps through apple earbuds or a pair of Beats.
2TB disks are quite cheap these days. I had everything ripped to 320, about 250GB, now re-ripped to FLAC, about 750GB.

Tom
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  #158  
Old 18.11.2012, 12:28
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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2TB disks are quite cheap these days. I had everything ripped to 320, about 250GB, now re-ripped to FLAC, about 750GB.

Tom
It's not 3x the quality though, and i'd personally find that a waste of space. Sure, it's good to have some of your favourite albums in the best possible quality, but all of them is unnecessary imo.
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Old 18.11.2012, 12:41
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

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2TB disks are quite cheap these days. I had everything ripped to 320, about 250GB, now re-ripped to FLAC, about 750GB.

Tom
I hear what you're saying with regards to a real Hi-Fi setup, but the vast majority of people consume music pretty much exclusively through portable devices, and if they stick with the supplied earphones, 128 AAC or 160MP3 is all they'll need.

If was running a decent home setup then I'd be using lossless compression with a RAID 5/6 enclosure for storage. However I'm not anymore, and basically my music consumption tends to be limited to the daily commute. I run a decent set of portable headphones, but still find that anything above 192AAC is not significantly better through my kit to warrant a higher encoding rate. Besides, should I ever take the plunge and get serious about Hi-Fi again I can re-rip as all of my music is on CD.
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Old 18.11.2012, 13:03
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Re: Swiss downloaders hurt the US Economy & is listed

Again, for all those that base their whole argument around the "Its not stealing" premise, you're just debating semantics. You can take the word "stealing" out and replace it with any word you please, and it doesn't change the fact that you are taking the product of someone's work, oftentimes against the wishes of this person or group of people, and not giving this person something in return. Its still wrong. Period. Posting all the childish, churlish, profane, and crude memes in the world will never change this fact; they only serve to highlight the paucity of your own argument.

Saying "Well, I wouldn't buy it anyway" is equally disingenuous. If this material weren't available for free download, and your only option to consume it was to buy it, then you'd have no choice but to buy it if you wanted to consume it.

If you walked into a public library with the intent of printing some information (for whatever reason) from a book, magazine, internet, etc, and you happened to see that exact material sitting on a printer or photocopier in the library, would you take it? The original is still on the computer or copier, so you haven't taken anything, right? But, if you did take it, you have this tangible thing in your hands, so what does that mean? Do you think that the person who went to the trouble and expense of making that copy is going to appreciate you telling them that they still have the original? If you walk into a music store and take a CD, they can just make another, right?

My opinion is all the "Its not stealing" people on here just can't make the intellectual leap between taking a tangible object and taking an intangible object. Their foolish logic could be ruinously applied to someone electronically cracking a bank account and duplicating an account that has millions or billions in it, but simply putting it in their own possession. After all, they just duplicated the bits and bytes that represented the money- the original owner still has his money, so nothing's been stolen, right? All they did was change an ownership pointer, after all... Most, if not all, of the "Its not stealing" crowd would balk at this, but it is morally and technologically almost identical to what they already do.

If the artist wanted you to have the work for free, they would make it available for free, but I don't see the majority of artists listing their music for free, regardless of what they may say when they're simply pandering to their fans. Just like you or me, they want to get paid for their work. Many of them were dirt poor before they had a successful song, and many other talented musicians still are dirt poor, but waiting for the possibility to make it big and be discovered. If we take or diminish their ability to do this by pirating their work, how many potentially great Mozarts, Lennons, Cobains, or Mathers will simply just get a day job and resign themselves to mediocrity, leaving the world a much poorer and less diverse place for the lack of the music they would've created?

Lastly, I DO agree with those that point the finger at recording companies for their pricing strategies. Digital copies cost far less to distribute and have much less content (in terms of a pressed CD or nicely printed liner notes) than do physical copies, so I SHOULD pay less.

But, in all respects, if someone worked to make it, market it, and distribute it, it isn't free...
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