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Old 23.10.2012, 23:03
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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Some time today, it appears that we all started feeding a troll
Could you explain in what way you feel I'm a troll? I genuinely believe what I say.
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  #102  
Old 23.10.2012, 23:09
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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Rubbish.
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Yawn....seriously?
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Could you explain in what way you feel I'm a troll? I genuinely believe what I say.
Because you write things like that
  #103  
Old 23.10.2012, 23:11
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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Because you write things like that
Only in the same tone as I'm being written to with giggling memes etc.

But perhaps I was a little rude and if so I apologise, but that's nothing to do with trolling which I certainly wasn't.
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  #104  
Old 23.10.2012, 23:12
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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And this is why the rules are nowadays totally obsolete. I understand the rules about meat to be fresh when cut for hygien reasons, I understand every single rules. Religions have been created in the past with the life conditions back then. Things changed and technology of today provide us with tools to help and prevent bacteries and infections. We have fridges and freezers.

So you eat your meat halal and put the rest in the freezer for a couple of months.
In 570AD/622AD there were no freezers, no fridges, no pasteurization and no upperisation around.

Reminds me of something I heard from Mom. She had a shop in Ermatingen just on the CH side of the Rhein. And, in mid 1943 expected a visit from a Mr Elsohn who had announced that he would bring dinner with him. Imagine that he was the grandson of a Supreme Rabbi in Kolmar. But when he arrived he unpacked first some supreme wine and then a generous package of bacon (and this in rationing times). She was astonished and asked him. He took it lightly and stated that those rules were devised in a region where the keeping of pigs is a problem even in modern times AND in times when modern hygiene and modern refrigeration techniques were not yet known. And so, the two had a tremendous meal
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  #105  
Old 23.10.2012, 23:13
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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In 570AD/622AD there were no freezers, no fridges, no pasteurization and no upperisation around.

Reminds me of something I heard from Mom. She had a shop in Ermatingen just on the CH side of the Rhein. And, in mid 1943 expected a visit from a Mr Elsohn who had announced that he would bring dinner with him. Imagine that he was the grandson of a Supreme Rabbi in Kolmar. But when he arrived he unpacked first some supreme wine and then a generous package of bacon (and this in rationing times). She was astonished and asked him. He took it lightly and stated that those rules were devised in a region where the keeping of pigs is a problem even in modern times AND in times when modern hygiene and modern refrigeration techniques were not yet known. And so, the two had a tremendous meal
So your rabbi ate bacon?
  #106  
Old 23.10.2012, 23:22
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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Furthermore, not all Muslims follow the Halal rule strictly. So the market is considerably smaller than that even. I often see Muslims in places like MacDonalds, and some even work there.

Also, hunting and fishing are as popular in Islamic countries as they are here, but obviously not compatible to Halal requirements.
You have to see it in a more practical way. Kosher and Halal restaurantants want to cater for guests who WANT to have their stuff being Kosher/Halal. Those who do not, do not demand NON Kosher/NON-Halal food. So that the obvious way to go is to get Kosher/Halal meat for all guests. Fly to Arab countries or to Israel on Alitalia. Alitalia on all these flights always has Kosher/Halal meat only, of course also for all the other passengers.

So that the INDIRECT market is what really counts. Take the many Turkish and Jewish butchers. The percentage of their customers really demanding Kosher/Halal food may be relatively small, but in order to cater for the "strictists" they work accordingly.
  #107  
Old 23.10.2012, 23:25
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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Wolli, there are roughly 2mio muslims by declaration and 500k jews in France, not 20mio.
as you say "by declaration". Most Muslims in France do NOT declare ANY religion.
  #108  
Old 23.10.2012, 23:33
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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So your rabbi ate bacon?
Mr Elsohn was NOT a Rabbi and Mum was NOT a Jew. But, yes, the grandson of a Supreme Rabbi DID eat bacon
  #109  
Old 24.10.2012, 00:38
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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as you say "by declaration". Most Muslims in France do NOT declare ANY religion.
France has roughly 65mio inhabitants. Do you honestly believe, that 22mio are either muslim or jewish?
  #110  
Old 24.10.2012, 10:37
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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France has roughly 65mio inhabitants. Do you honestly believe, that 22mio are either muslim or jewish?
Some may be both even. You can be of the Jewish race for example, but follow the Muslim religion.

And being perpetually drunk, the rest of the French see two of everything.

  #111  
Old 24.10.2012, 14:06
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

How about getting back to the initial topic?

I would be interested in hearing from those here who are Muslim, as to whether they do or do not agree, that electric stunning, at the right level to ensure that the animal is not killed- is an acceptable compromise. According to the Q'ran, there is nothing haram about stunning in this way, and the meat produced is truly Halal. If they agree (and imho they should as per the Q'ran) then why is this not accepted by some and adopted elsewhere?
  #112  
Old 24.10.2012, 14:09
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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How about getting back to the initial topic?

I would be interested in hearing from those here who are Muslim, as to whether they do or do not agree, that electric stunning, at the right level to ensure that the animal is not killed- is an acceptable compromise. According to the Q'ran, there is nothing haram about stunning in this way, and the meat produced is truly Halal. If they agree (and imho they should as per the Q'ran) then why is this not accepted by some and adopted elsewhere?
It's called the "not invented here" syndrome.
  #113  
Old 24.10.2012, 14:29
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

All this hoo-haa about how "knocked-out" the animal must be before it`s killed so that it`s acceptable to people with beliefs foreign to this country is really so much .... what word to use here?........(just fill in the gap).

In those countries where they do this type of killing they don`t care about the animal at all ..... drop a concrete block on it`s head .....entrap it`s head in a steel vice to saw it`s neck open ...... and if I want to eat meat in those countries there are no guarantees for me about how the meat should meet my own criteria of beliefs. So I stay away from those countries.

This country, with it`s minute size, it`s never ending problem of refugees, asylum seekers, foreigners wanting to live here, well really, they should, in my opinion (Oh wish I was Master of this land!) accept how things are done here, adapt, or go back to where they can live how they want to.

It`s all so freaking ridiculous, the "rules" of eating being carried into this 21st Century of hygiene! Pig meat was never very popular with non-Muslims anyway as it usually was infected and had to be cooked right thru at high temperatures to destroy the parasites - nowadays people eat it RARE!

The old biblical rules were for hygiene ....... and preventing diseases. Same as telling how to set up a campsite, where to site the latrines, how to recognise an infectious disease and how long quarantine periods should be. Now we have anti-biotics, anti-fungals, anti-virals, cortisone, and a myriad other medications to cope with our infectious neighbors.

Slave treatment is also mentioned but we don`t have slaves anymore.
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  #114  
Old 24.10.2012, 15:12
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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Yawn....seriously? Orthodoxy in any religion has nothing to do with religiosity. Religiosity is how much you conform to what you accept the religion to be. Orthodoxy is what you understand the ideals of the religion to be. The people of these wine producing countries pretty much all believe they should not be drinking wine. Whether they do or not is besides the point and can be explained by simple cognative dissonance - the same reason why obese people eat doughnuts while wanting to lose weight.
Exactly that. Unless we accept that any term can simply be relabelled according to one's preferences there is an orthodoxy of belief in every established religion. I can't just declare myself to be Muslim because I love beer, or at least wouldn't be taken seriously with such a ridiculous claim. And if a main tenet of a religion is that God dicated his will to the prophets who then wrote it down word by word, then that book cannot simply be ignored. You may chose to not follow it, and say you are not a strict Muslim (I find the term "moderate" missleading), but to cherrypick whatever you like of the book and still call yourself Muslim is strange to say the least. By that logic I would be a follower of most if not all religions.

Hence my opposition to such terms as moderate, extremist, literal, liberal as denotations of one's faith. Either you believe and follow, or you believe and don't follow (part of it), both are religious in that they accept the main tenets of their faith and that is exactly what chapps said. He never claimed that 99% of Muslims don't drink, the simply said that 99% of Muslims know that the Quran sais you must not drink alcohol.

I know we in the Western world would rather have Muslims reinterpret their religion to the point where it has nothing to do with the original faith, but just because we are dishonest about changing rules by saying we have "reinterpreted" them does not mean everyone else has to accept that approach. I dislike hypocrisy and lies even if the result seems desirable. I rather have Muslims renounce their faith and say that the book is written by humans, but they like some parts of it, than have those "moderates" denounce others as extremists because they take a very literal book, well, literal.
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  #115  
Old 24.10.2012, 17:24
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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I think it's rather sad that the thread has descended down to one person telling another what her beliefs ought to be. This is how in real life hard core extremism hijack the identity of millions of people.

I think it is fine to say that you believe being a muslim is behaving in a certain way, but it is wrong to impose that on someone else who also identify of being a muslim but not sharing that view.

Do you really want to put you in the position of god to judge your fellow man, or woman in this matter?
I would never tell anyone what their beliefs should be. Personally, I'm an atheist and believe in, pretty much, nothing at all. However in Islam, you're not allowed to drink. And you have to slaughter animals in a specific way. And that's it. Whether you do or not is besides the point. According to Islam, you should. In Switzerland, it's illegal to murder.It doesn't matter if every single Swiss person murders 20 people a day. It's no less legal, it's no less punishable. Islamic law, especially in these really basic dietary laws, isn't interpreted differently around the world or by different Fiqh/Schools. It really is pretty standard.

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Et Voilà! ............
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They don't.

If they knew for sure, they wouldn't need to believe.
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How do you know for sure? You get the story about him from people who have not been there when he was there.
Sorry guys - my "how do you know for sure" was just mimicking Nil's "how do you know for sure" earlier. The Sunnah isn't more known than the Quran.

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How about getting back to the initial topic?

I would be interested in hearing from those here who are Muslim, as to whether they do or do not agree, that electric stunning, at the right level to ensure that the animal is not killed- is an acceptable compromise. According to the Q'ran, there is nothing haram about stunning in this way, and the meat produced is truly Halal. If they agree (and imho they should as per the Q'ran) then why is this not accepted by some and adopted elsewhere?
Firstly, could we please spell Quran in a way that relates to how it sounds in Arabic? It shouldn't have an apostrophe stuck in the middle like that.

Secondly, I think you're getting into a bit of a muddle mentioning the Quran at all. While being the central text in Islam, it informs Islamic dietary law the very least. The majority of dietary law comes from Sunnah/Hadith and later Fiqh with fatwas issued continuously, refining the law based primarily on what the Quran doesn't say. Various Fiqh have differing importance with Hanafi (especially at the moment Ali Gomaa of Al Azhar ruling) because it's massive and Hanbali because it encompasses two of the holy cities. I suppose my point is that this concerns the 1300 year old laws of what is now a billion person religion and your post could do with a few tons of texture and nuance dropped on it's head.
  #116  
Old 24.10.2012, 18:00
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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I would never tell anyone what their beliefs should be. Personally, I'm an atheist and believe in, pretty much, nothing at all.
no objection so far ...

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However in Islam, you're not allowed to drink. And you have to slaughter animals in a specific way. And that's it.
This you believe, or you claim?

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Whether you do or not is besides the point. According to Islam, you should. In Switzerland, it's illegal to murder.It doesn't matter if every single Swiss person murders 20 people a day. It's no less legal, it's no less punishable. Islamic law, especially in these really basic dietary laws, isn't interpreted differently around the world or by different Fiqh/Schools. It really is pretty standard.
Okay, but there are also antiquated and obsolete laws which somehow slipped by and nobody bothered to delete from the lawbook. Maybe in Switzerland there aren't that many, but in countries such as the UK there are heaps. For example there is a law that in the City of York you may not shoot a Scotsman with bow and arrow during the hours of darkness. I attended a school where there was a rule that the Head Boy had the right to wear a top hat in class, could get married, and could graze his sheep on the school playing field. Such rules are old and obsolete and really only dug out when somebopdy is looking for a chuckle. But technically they still stand. So just because a rule exists it does not automatically follow that you are expected to live by it.

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Firstly, could we please spell Quran in a way that relates to how it sounds in Arabic? It shouldn't have an apostrophe stuck in the middle like that.
Why not. We see the prophet's name transcripted as Mohammed, Mohammad, Mahomet, Mahmet and other variants depending where you look and who you ask. Arabic has numerous dialects and variants and who is to say which is correct and which is wrong?
  #117  
Old 24.10.2012, 18:06
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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Why not. We see the prophet's name transcripted as Mohammed, Mohammad, Mahomet, Mahmet and other variants depending where you look and who you ask. Arabic has numerous dialects and variants and who is to say which is correct and which is wrong?

No, seriously, it's wrong. It could be Q-/:;aaan. It just isn't.
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Old 24.10.2012, 18:11
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

The OED favours Koran.

Anything else is either overly scholarly or pretentious.

(as I understand it, the use of apostrophes in Arabic transliteration is very carefully prescribed. Best to avoid them unless one of the categories in the previous paragraph applies)
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Old 24.10.2012, 18:13
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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The OED favours Koran.

Anything else is either overly scholarly or pretentious.

(as I understand it, the use of apostrophes in Arabic transliteration is very carefully prescribed. Best to avoid them unless one of the categories in the previous paragraph applies)

So there are a few different k sounds in Arabic and the one that's the hardest comes with a bit of a glottal and is given a Q in English. In Egyptian dialect they actually don't pronounce the Q at all! Instead it's given just a glottal stop.
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Old 24.10.2012, 18:15
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Re: Halal meat made in Switzerland.

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So there are a few different k sounds in Arabic and the one that's the hardest comes with a bit of a glottal and is given a Q in English.
That was always my favourite letter, because in its isolated form it looks like a dog's face.

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