Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 27.01.2008, 08:16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ZG
Posts: 386
Groaned at 26 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 73 Times in 59 Posts
electric_grey has earned some respectelectric_grey has earned some respect
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

And so the fallout continues, how long before we are in a depression? Why are bonuses still being paid in some of these failed businesses. Why are guilty people still in their jobs? Once upon a time to be offered a job in a bank was an honour, but today - forget it.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 27.01.2008, 12:49
Gav's Avatar
Gav Gav is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 970
Groaned at 15 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 468 Times in 187 Posts
Gav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
From a US perspective it depends where you live. Many states have "non-recourse" statutes that do infact allow you to in effect walk away for home finance.
Yep - though AFAIK nothing similar exists in Europe which is pretty lucky for the banks here.

As it stands, if you can't make the payments you'll lose your home and still owe the bank thousands as well as having a shattered credit record. When I look at prices where I currently live (avg house price 240k stg as of last year, avg salary about 20k!) I can't help but think that a lot of people are shortly going to be in a great deal of financial trouble indeed if prices drop considerably and the economy slows .. which at this stage looks highly likely.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 27.01.2008, 13:00
Gav's Avatar
Gav Gav is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 970
Groaned at 15 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 468 Times in 187 Posts
Gav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
as usual, the French are fashionalbly late to the party .... oh but how :

$7 Billion trader fraud

There's something fishy about that whole unfolding story. It's very, very difficult to believe that one relatively junior trader could take positions of that magnitude even if he was setting out to defraud.

Either he had accomplices in a wider scale fraud or he is being made a scapegoat by the bank for their own losses.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 27.01.2008, 13:59
Gav's Avatar
Gav Gav is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 970
Groaned at 15 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 468 Times in 187 Posts
Gav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
And so the fallout continues, how long before we are in a depression? Why are bonuses still being paid in some of these failed businesses. Why are guilty people still in their jobs? Once upon a time to be offered a job in a bank was an honour, but today - forget it.
I think you'd enjoy reading this:


http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comme...247583,00.html
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Gav for this useful post:
  #125  
Old 27.01.2008, 17:22
Spanky's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kt. Züri
Posts: 109
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 87 Times in 42 Posts
Spanky has no particular reputation at present
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

The missus and I were discussing this very issue yesterday. Although the guy had apparently worked in compliance and the bank's middle office and therefore would have been aware of risk control functions, I can't believe that this chap managed to do that much damage on his own.

The size of the positions he would have been taking to run up a loss of that magnitude would have had to have been immense and would not easily have been concealed by any means. SocGen are not a bunch of amateurs and I find it hard to imagine how a $7b loss could be incurred without assistance form a multitude of the bank's departments (front, middle and back office, credit and operational risk management depts. etc.)


Quote:
View Post
There's something fishy about that whole unfolding story. It's very, very difficult to believe that one relatively junior trader could take positions of that magnitude even if he was setting out to defraud.

Either he had accomplices in a wider scale fraud or he is being made a scapegoat by the bank for their own losses.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Spanky for this useful post:
  #126  
Old 27.01.2008, 17:27
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zollikon
Posts: 2,398
Groaned at 83 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 1,727 Times in 847 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
Yep - though AFAIK nothing similar exists in Europe which is pretty lucky for the banks here.

As it stands, if you can't make the payments you'll lose your home and still owe the bank thousands as well as having a shattered credit record. When I look at prices where I currently live (avg house price 240k stg as of last year, avg salary about 20k!) I can't help but think that a lot of people are shortly going to be in a great deal of financial trouble indeed if prices drop considerably and the economy slows .. which at this stage looks highly likely.
Any house price loss happens only if you sell.
Not if you do nothing.

Another example is last week's stock market "crash".
Shit yourself and sell on Tuesday, prices recovered by Friday.
You only lost if you sold... well done if you bought at the low point

If you bought your house to *live* in and not as a short to medium term "investment", or as a vehicle to remortgage and pay off your credit card, then you should be OK unless you lose your job.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gbn for this useful post:
  #127  
Old 27.01.2008, 17:28
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zollikon
Posts: 2,398
Groaned at 83 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 1,727 Times in 847 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
The missus and I were discussing this very issue yesterday. Although the guy had apparently worked in compliance and the bank's middle office and therefore would have been aware of risk control functions, I can't believe that this chap managed to do that much damage on his own.

The size of the positions he would have been taking to run up a loss of that magnitude would have had to have been immense and would not easily have been concealed by any means. SocGen are not a bunch of amateurs and I find it hard to imagine how a $7b loss could be incurred without assistance form a multitude of the bank's departments (front, middle and back office, credit and operational risk management depts. etc.)
Arguably, if he'd punted and lost within a very short space of time he could have done it singlehandedly.
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 27.01.2008, 17:37
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ZG
Posts: 386
Groaned at 26 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 73 Times in 59 Posts
electric_grey has earned some respectelectric_grey has earned some respect
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
Certainly did. Don't usually read that source but that article is dead right.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 27.01.2008, 17:39
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ZG
Posts: 386
Groaned at 26 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 73 Times in 59 Posts
electric_grey has earned some respectelectric_grey has earned some respect
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
you should be OK unless you lose your job.
I love that last little rider about job loss. That's when it really gets tough.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 27.01.2008, 17:43
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ZG
Posts: 386
Groaned at 26 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 73 Times in 59 Posts
electric_grey has earned some respectelectric_grey has earned some respect
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
SocGen are not a bunch of amateurs and I find it hard to imagine how a $7b loss could be incurred without assistance form a multitude of the bank's departments (front, middle and back office, credit and operational risk management depts. etc.)
Sorry but in my view all banks currently with such big losses, are out of control. Run by managers, not owners. It is not their money they toss around in ever larger gambles. They deserve what is coming to them. Lets just hope that all banks are NOT involved with such stupidities.

How after all the regulation, does such large losses occur with just one guy?
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 27.01.2008, 18:11
Spanky's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kt. Züri
Posts: 109
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 87 Times in 42 Posts
Spanky has no particular reputation at present
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
Sorry but in my view all banks currently with such big losses, are out of control.
I'm not sure I follow.....banks with big losses are out of control, ok fine. But if they post a record profit for the year then it's all good?

Quote:
Run by managers, not owners.
Shareholders are the "owners". Management is there to run the bank. Who else is supposed to do it?

Quote:
It is not their money they toss around in ever larger gambles. They deserve what is coming to them. Lets just hope that all banks are NOT involved with such stupidities.
I think you'll find that all banks do exactly that. They invest and trade with the funds entrusted to them. Of course when they screw it up heads should roll.

Quote:
How after all the regulation, does such large losses occur with just one guy?
This was my point. If all those departments mentioned fulfilled their functions correctly, this kind of thing wouldn't happen.
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 27.01.2008, 20:44
Polorise's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: about there
Posts: 2,739
Groaned at 32 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,325 Times in 1,259 Posts
Polorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

who is next to the fire sale of the century ?

Qatar funds may snap up $3 billion stake in Credit Suisse
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Polorise for this useful post:
  #133  
Old 27.01.2008, 20:46
Polorise's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: about there
Posts: 2,739
Groaned at 32 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,325 Times in 1,259 Posts
Polorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
The missus and I were discussing this very issue yesterday. Although the guy had apparently worked in compliance and the bank's middle office and therefore would have been aware of risk control functions, I can't believe that this chap managed to do that much damage on his own.

The size of the positions he would have been taking to run up a loss of that magnitude would have had to have been immense and would not easily have been concealed by any means. SocGen are not a bunch of amateurs and I find it hard to imagine how a $7b loss could be incurred without assistance form a multitude of the bank's departments (front, middle and back office, credit and operational risk management depts. etc.)
the lastest from Reuters, apparently Soc Gen used one trader to unwind the deals, so they say it's possible one trader built the positions.

Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 27.01.2008, 21:29
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zollikon
Posts: 2,398
Groaned at 83 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 1,727 Times in 847 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
who is next to the fire sale of the century ?

Qatar funds may snap up $3 billion stake in Credit Suisse
FFS, CS lost "only" a couple of billion...
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 27.01.2008, 21:33
Spanky's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kt. Züri
Posts: 109
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 87 Times in 42 Posts
Spanky has no particular reputation at present
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
the lastest from Reuters, apparently Soc Gen used one trader to unwind the deals, so they say it's possible one trader built the positions.

Well one guy unwinding the bent trades with the full knowledge of all the associated departments seems perfectly feasible to me.

One guy running a book with $73b of unauthorised trades still sounds like a crock.

The mere fact that the CEO of SocGen IB would make a statement like that is very strange to say the least.

It's not the volume that's the problem, rather getting round all the controls they should have in place when the original trades were done that's hard to swallow.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Spanky for this useful post:
  #136  
Old 27.01.2008, 22:00
Nev
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
An eloquent vent from a good journalist. To be fair to him he was ringing alarms about the bursting of the credit fuelled housing bubble a year ago. He makes some good points.The financial services industry have a lot to answer for. But is the "bargain" between the “self -confident chancers" and our economies really one sided? What about the billions of dollars of contribution financial services have made to GDPs of London, Geneva, Zurich, Frankfurt and other financial centres over the years. Or the tax revenues on corporate profits and individual pay packets in boom times which feed back into the local economies.
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 28.01.2008, 16:23
JVC
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
Any house price loss happens only if you sell.
Not if you do nothing.
The problem is when as the result of a credit crunch you end up with bad debtors and are forced to sell.
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 28.01.2008, 16:48
Gav's Avatar
Gav Gav is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 970
Groaned at 15 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 468 Times in 187 Posts
Gav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond reputeGav has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
The problem is when as the result of a credit crunch you end up with bad debtors and are forced to sell.

Also, remortgaging becomes impossible when in negative equity (or even drawing close). So people who took on silly debts because the 2-year intro rate looked affordable find they suddenly have to pay 50-100% more per month with no hope of refinancing.

For owners not in trouble of repayment but looking to borrow, that also cuts out the possibility of 'equity release' which many silly people have been using to fund lifestyles completely out of whack with their income. Which of course provided quite an impetus to the economy while it lasted.


Bottom line, many of the Western economies (especially the 'Anglo' ones) were existing upon the notion of ever increasing house prices driving consumer borrowing and spending for goods and services. Also, the whole 'financial services' sector has proven enormously lucrative for the UK where it has contributed massively to GDP.

Much of the Global banking system has been buying into the debts incurred in the aforementioned economies. Now that the debtors are defaulting, suddenly those 'investments' look very shaky indeed.
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 28.01.2008, 21:05
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 115
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Info has no particular reputation at present
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Quote:
View Post
.
The confederation does not guarantee bank deposits in any way shape or form. Nor should it in my opinion.
.
Shorrick Mk2, Why do you say so? Can you please explain .. (see bold above)
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 30.01.2008, 09:15
Polorise's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: about there
Posts: 2,739
Groaned at 32 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,325 Times in 1,259 Posts
Polorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

final figures from UBS for 2007 ....

UBS sees FY net loss 4.4 bln chf



Quote:
The bank is scheduled to post its annual and fourth quarter results on February 14.

Last edited by Polorise; 30.01.2008 at 09:16. Reason: info
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
credit crunch, credit suisse, economics, greed, ubs




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
More parking woes Gav Transportation/driving 21 15.11.2013 16:53
Zattoo now doing BBC prime inachis TV/internet/telephone 24 05.05.2008 10:07
Sub-prime crisis hits Japan Woodsie Jokes/funnies 3 09.10.2007 20:24
UBS take a 4bn CHF hit from sub-prime Gav Finance/banking/taxation 6 01.10.2007 14:47


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:42.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0