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Old 16.11.2012, 02:27
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

From the OP:

Quote:
Eight asylum seekers started to fight late at night at their hostel
This would likely mean they were at the secondary center. In German speaking areas / Zürich, these are called the Durchgangszentrum Phase 2 ( secondary cf. Reception Centers aka primary Empfangs- und Verfahrenszentren ).

Residents in the secondary centers are paid more in cash as they only have German lessons and a bunk bed ( Self Catering ). One or more persons may be in charge of the center, and is responsible to issue the letters for medical / dental treatment, tickets, appeals letters eg to SBB against a fine and so on. It is from these centers that work rights are given after 3 months and after initial language lessons.

Some opt for a course ( run by GEP no pay only for the work experience and "integration" in the local Brockitos for example ) instead of finding work in the 5 areas.

The lucky ones find seasonal work as a farm hand ( say in Dielsdorf ZH for very long hours at very low rates that are somehow acceptable by the Cantonal Work Authorities ).

Those who do not find work nor a course have to simply wait for their all important appointment in Quellenweg, Wabern for case determination. This takes at least 6 months for the call up if their cases demonstrates some merit. Many do not receive this appointment and resort to a legal appeal which does not suspend the expiration of their N permit.

After Wabern / court, it is either:

Recognised refugee = B permit, with accelerated access to C permit ; or

Disbelieved asylum seeker ( normally without individual merits but part of a larger group that warrants keeping in CH for at least 1 year ) but risky to send back - 1 year, renewable F permit, very limited path to an ordinary non-refugee B ; or
( there is also the S permit which is temporary on medical grounds )

N permit withdrawn = Sans papier - ticket given to the border by rail to voluntarily depart CH ; or

Forcible removal after obtaining papers and an assessment

B and F permit holders must leave the secondary centers, and those who cannot, pay automatically around CHF420 a month for a bunk bed ( most beds are uncomfortable as slats are broken / damaged in the middle ) from their Sozialhilfe funds ( about 50% of the SKOS value ).

Others are moved to the 3rd stage center ( there is one behind IBM in Zürich-Altstetten building for example - they prepare them for removal and reintegration in their home countries ), if not disappear altogether. Some find refuge in another country in Europe, many do not and are in "orbit".

The 3rd stage center is also where most, if not all, of the items went to. These items were collected by me from generous EF members and given to these temporary residents, who have personally reiterated their gratitude over the past 4 years.

As demand outstrips supply for a roof over their head in most parts in CH, these movements are vital to ease the congestion and pressures.

Hopefully, all this sheds some more light into the predicament of the asylum seeker.

I bow out of this thread with this article from Swissinfo:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=33782718

Asylum seekers – a view from the inside ( Chiasso )
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  #162  
Old 16.11.2012, 03:08
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

Sheep rustler should be deported to Australia
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Old 16.11.2012, 09:16
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

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Sheep rustler should be deported to Australia
Or America?
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Old 16.11.2012, 09:37
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Re: Violent ayslum seekers?

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Just because Switzerland is "rich" does not mean it is obligated to "support" asylum seekers. Asylum seekers must learn to be able to support themselves, and it could be in the best interest of Switzerland to give them the means to do so. I am not talking about "permanent crutches", rather temporary ones.

I'm aware my ideas might be quite naive, so feel free to provide constructive criticism and not just say "they be stupid!!!!"

1. Free German classes, so they'll be able to more easily integrate. This will also keep them off the streets even if it's only for a few hours.

2. Give them food-stamps instead of actual money. And the stamps should be "good only for food", not alcohol, or iPods or some such luxury items.

3. Give them some kind of ID card to keep track of their identities. Perhaps even allow them to have a new name. A name that is not native to their home country. The goal here is to at least plant the idea in their heads that they can start a "new identity" or "new life" regardless of what their previous life was in their home country.

Then implement some kind of progress report, such as language proficiency, or keeping track of criminal records or some such to see how much the asylum seekers are actually doing to integrate or at the very least behave.

"
I`m also rather naive when it comes to distinctions between refugees/asylum seekers - to me they`re all folk coming into Switzerland because they need to run away from their own countries (?) for whatever reasons.

But howcome they opt to live in a "rich" country, where everyone admits everything is so expensive, and few can afford? Why not other countries with lower standards?


To your suggestion No.1 - I attended German classes, subsidised by the Gemeinde. Being the only English speaking (non refugee/asylum seeker) person in class, I was the only one to actually PAY for my lessons. All the rest were paid for by the Gemeinde, and not everyone attended every lesson. In fact, one day I was the only person in class!

Your suggestion No. 2 - A couple of them had jobs, and complained bitterly about the pay, which I questioned as it seems extremely low and unfair ..... kitchen help in restaurants ...... until they volunteered,, under my interrogation, that they actually received Sfr3,000 a month (each, husband and wife) , plus a free apartment, free train travel, free dentist, free optician, and free medical. Her employment was obligatory to enable her to learn some sort of trade/language skills.

The German lessons were obligatory for them to attain their B permits - after spending respectively between 4 and 12 years in Switzerland, they`d not learned ANY German.

Interesting to me was one lady who got fetched by her "crippled" husband in his BMW, he`d had an accident on a building site in his first year in CH, (damaged back), so they lived here on social help or whatever for 12 years, and produced 4 children, who were also now being aided by social help.

Now shoot me, because my heart does not bleed.
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  #165  
Old 16.11.2012, 10:17
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

I knew a Dutchman once who was an alcoholic wife beater.

Therefore all Dutchmen are alcoholic wife beaters.

Now shoot me, because my heart doesn't bleed.
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  #166  
Old 16.11.2012, 10:25
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

Quote:
I knew a Dutchman once who was an alcoholic wife beater.

Therefore all Dutchmen are alcoholic wife beaters.

Now shoot me, because my heart doesn't bleed.
I know I am not good at reading and my IQ isn't high enough to understand much but nowhere I saw someone saying all of asylum seekers were abusing the system and/or being violent.
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  #167  
Old 16.11.2012, 10:50
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

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I know I am not good at reading and my IQ isn't high enough to understand much but nowhere I saw someone saying all of asylum seekers were abusing the system and/or being violent.
Indeed. But a massively disproportionate amount of attention is being lavished on those few asylum seekers who are causing trouble.

People are committing crimes all the time in Switzerland. But it's the asylum seekers who are the problem, apparently. That's because they're an easy target: they're already the lowest of the low, so why not bring them a little bit lower?

It's the same in England. Never mind the thousands and thousands of indigenous trouble makers who plague the country's streets. No, we've got to get ourselves worked up over some silly sod who kills a swan and eats it.

If somebody commits a crime, let him be processed by the courts and punished as appropriate. But let's not get ourselves into a lather over the fact that some people who commit crimes are asylum seekers, or muslims, or Tunisians or whoever else we fancy giving a good kicking this week.

There but for the grace of God, and all that...
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  #168  
Old 16.11.2012, 12:31
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

Quote:
Indeed. But a massively disproportionate amount of attention is being lavished on those few asylum seekers who are causing trouble.

People are committing crimes all the time in Switzerland. But it's the asylum seekers who are the problem, apparently. That's because they're an easy target: they're already the lowest of the low, so why not bring them a little bit lower?

It's the same in England. Never mind the thousands and thousands of indigenous trouble makers who plague the country's streets. No, we've got to get ourselves worked up over some silly sod who kills a swan and eats it.

If somebody commits a crime, let him be processed by the courts and punished as appropriate. But let's not get ourselves into a lather over the fact that some people who commit crimes are asylum seekers, or muslims, or Tunisians or whoever else we fancy giving a good kicking this week.

There but for the grace of God, and all that...
Reading the OP again, I see it is about a specific situation and what can be done about it. Later in the thread was suggestions on what to do to help them and those in precarious situation when they arrive in Switzerland. I know many Kurds who came to ch to escape the madness going on in east turkey. Some did well and found a life in ch and are well integrated. Others are sticking together and don't search to integrate.

Why can't we talk about it?
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  #169  
Old 16.11.2012, 15:30
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Re: Violent ayslum seekers?

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Your suggestion No. 2 - A couple of them had jobs, and complained bitterly about the pay, which I questioned as it seems extremely low and unfair ..... kitchen help in restaurants ...... until they volunteered,, under my interrogation, that they actually received Sfr3,000 a month (each, husband and wife) , plus a free apartment, free train travel, free dentist, free optician, and free medical. Her employment was obligatory to enable her to learn some sort of trade/language skills.

The German lessons were obligatory for them to attain their B permits - after spending respectively between 4 and 12 years in Switzerland, they`d not learned ANY German.

Interesting to me was one lady who got fetched by her "crippled" husband in his BMW, he`d had an accident on a building site in his first year in CH, (damaged back), so they lived here on social help or whatever for 12 years, and produced 4 children, who were also now being aided by social help.

Now shoot me, because my heart does not bleed.
Are you sure they received all those social benefits? It sounds to good to be true...I doubt they still receive all that aid once they're having a full time working place.
Where is the facts man when you need him? ...

PS- as far as social benefits go, there're lots of urban myths about dirty immigrants sucking the blood out of 'onest working locals. Everywhere.
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Old 16.11.2012, 16:18
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

Quote:
Indeed. But a massively disproportionate amount of attention is being lavished on those few asylum seekers who are causing trouble.

People are committing crimes all the time in Switzerland. But it's the asylum seekers who are the problem, apparently. That's because they're an easy target: they're already the lowest of the low, so why not bring them a little bit lower?

It's the same in England. Never mind the thousands and thousands of indigenous trouble makers who plague the country's streets. No, we've got to get ourselves worked up over some silly sod who kills a swan and eats it.

If somebody commits a crime, let him be processed by the courts and punished as appropriate. But let's not get ourselves into a lather over the fact that some people who commit crimes are asylum seekers, or muslims, or Tunisians or whoever else we fancy giving a good kicking this week.

There but for the grace of God, and all that...


The Days/Nighth are long and Cold The eat swans in england

Last edited by cannut; 16.11.2012 at 21:36.
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  #171  
Old 16.11.2012, 17:24
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

Quote:
I knew a Dutchman once who was an alcoholic wife beater.

Therefore all Dutchmen are alcoholic wife beaters.

Now shoot me, because my heart doesn't bleed.
DB: you're more intelligent than this post. I know this for a fact. Did Elmer sneak into your flat and take over your computer?
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  #172  
Old 16.11.2012, 19:51
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Re: Violent ayslum seekers?

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Are you sure they received all those social benefits? It sounds to good to be true...I doubt they still receive all that aid once they're having a full time working place.
Where is the facts man when you need him? ...

PS- as far as social benefits go, there're lots of urban myths about dirty immigrants sucking the blood out of 'onest working locals. Everywhere.
it was probably from an article in Weltwoche so it must be true....
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Old 16.11.2012, 20:28
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

Quote:
It's the same in England. Never mind the thousands and thousands of indigenous trouble makers who plague the country's streets.
That's because they can't be kicked out. And when they do "self deport", they just go to Portugal and Spain and cause problems for the locals there. It's vicious circle.

Let's just keep everyone where they are. Like freeze tag. We'll choose a random day and time and scream "Freeze". Then everyone has to stay where they are. No more moving.
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  #174  
Old 16.11.2012, 20:52
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

Quote:
I knew a Dutchman once who was an alcoholic wife beater.
This Dutchman, does he beat normal wives or just alcoholic ones? Only asking because mines starting to play up...
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  #175  
Old 16.11.2012, 21:28
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Quote:
,............ we've got to get ourselves worked up over some silly sod ........................

...................let's not get ourselves into a lather over the fact that some people who commit crimes are asylum seekers, or muslims, or Tunisians or whoever else we fancy giving a good kicking this week.

There but for the grace of God, and all that...
Relax and calm down - take your own advice.

Obviously the news is biased - most of the reported in press crimes lately seem to be targeting only foreigners, most especially the much maligned refugee/asylum seeker sorts.

Sad state of affairs huh?

When will they begin reporting the REAL culprits behind the robberies/muggings/bag-snatchers/scammings/etc!

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Are you sure they received all those social benefits? It sounds to good to be true...I doubt they still receive all that aid once they're having a full time working place.
Where is the facts man when you need him? ...

PS- as far as social benefits go, there're lots of urban myths about dirty immigrants sucking the blood out of 'onest working locals. Everywhere.
Well, that is what the people on that German course told me.
I learned more than just German.

While on the language course they took time off for their dental and/or optical appointments, in Switzerland. No shopping around for cheaper prices because - quote - "The Gemeinde pays.
Krankenkasse? paid by Gemeinde.
Apartment? Free - it belongs to the Gemeinde.
Husband working? - Part time for the Gemeinde - cleaning.
Wife working? - Part time in Pizza parlour to learn a trade/language.
Train fare? (To language course and/or work place) - Train ticket from Gemeinde.
Income? Total SFr6,000 pm - from Gemeinde - 3 children to support.

Do they like living in Switzerland? Yes, love it.
Where from? Turkey.

Others from Serbia, Tibet, Nepal, Jugoslavia.

I`m not saying they don`t deserve the help. Just commenting that they are treated well.
Wish I was treated that well!

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it was probably from an article in Weltwoche so it must be true....
Not good idea to judge others by your own standards .

Sometimes I do get out into the real world - and interact with various people - not just the Swiss - and I ask lots of questions, and get told the most interesting things. - which I`m inclined to believe, seeing they`re talking about their own lives

Last edited by jrspet; 16.11.2012 at 21:56. Reason: Merging of successive posts
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  #176  
Old 17.11.2012, 11:39
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

Smoky, have you read jrspet's post? Or do you rely only on anecdotal evidence?
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Old 17.11.2012, 13:57
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

Recognised refugee = B permit = same rights as Swiss citizens, including access to Sozialhilfe ( please search SKOS on EF and .ch for rates or facts, like on this thread )

F permit holder = lesser benefits as their permit is one of a temporary nature. Difficult to find work and more difficult to changeover to non-refugee B.

N permit holder = asylum seeker ( Article 12 very basic payments only ).

I believe this thread was about asylum seekers as they lived in the secondary center - hostel.

Asylum seekers = people waiting for a determination.

The hearsay above is about those ( foreigners ) who have full access to Sozialhilfe, and in my opinion is grossly overstated as the Sozialamt are very strict about expenditure. Whatever income earned whilst on Sozilahilfe is counted against the next Grundbedarf payment, less the EFB ( Einkommens-Freibetrag ). This might be best under a separate thread about foreigners accessing social security in CH.

They are unlikely to be recognised refugees as they would otherwise be able to access SKOS housing approx. CHF1,100 a month, basic insurance, basic cash payments, fixed cost for optics once every 3 years, access to integration projects and language lessons etc.

All recognised refugees were once asylum seekers, but not all asylum seekers are refugees ( i.e. the acceptance rate ). Legal migration and the asylum process both can lead to the same migration outcome.
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Old 18.11.2012, 04:58
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

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That's because they can't be kicked out. And when they do "self deport", they just go to Portugal and Spain and cause problems for the locals there. It's vicious circle.

Let's just keep everyone where they are. Like freeze tag. We'll choose a random day and time and scream "Freeze". Then everyone has to stay where they are. No more moving.
You know what this thread needs? Someone to invoke Godwin's Law. Because this is seriously making me sick.

Switzerland turned away Jewish refugees during WW2.
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Old 18.11.2012, 05:10
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

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Switzerland turned away Jewish refugees during WW2.
Some were allowed in an unconventional way:

World Refugee Day, 2009 Real People Real Needs ( June 20th )

Paul Grüninger - http://www.paul-grueninger.ch/
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Old 18.11.2012, 10:00
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Re: Violent asylum seekers?

Quote:
. No, we've got to get ourselves worked up over some silly sod who kills a swan and ...
Such a horrible thing do do to a beautiful bird. It is right that there is outrage over mistreatment of animals, whether they are swan eaters or cat chuckers.
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