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Old 22.11.2012, 12:17
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Re: Brasilian guy shot by ex-girlfriend, portrayed as "womanizer" and "kickboxer"

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Sadly that seems to ring true.

I've just skimmed this thread as well as the 2 articles (the TA piece isn't an article but rather an interview with a young academic from Kontanz uni), and none of the German terms for 'womaniser' (Schürzenjäger, Frauenheld etc) are mentioned in the 20 Min piece. although 'womaniser' appears several times in posts (in a negative context).
Womanisers are generally attractive to & liked by women; they can't be all bad....

Also, I think people who are saying that rumours of a dodgy background of a female victim in similar circs wouldn't be mentioned are off the mark; they would be. the whiff of sordidness sells papers, attracts hits to websites....... and provokes discussion threads, like this one

The real lesson is the danger of weapons in the home: overwhelmingly used against occupants rather than intruders or other malfeasants. And that a young bloke/father was blown away in a moment of madness: 1 life extinguished and others destroyed ie, the perpetrator & child(ren)


FB
You above in case of Tages Anzeiger did NOT refer to the article but to the interview
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...story/18743580
And the lady is NOT "from Konstanz" but
Seit 2000 arbeitet sie als wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin beim Psychiatrisch-Psychologischen Dienst (PPD) im Amt für Justizvollzug des Kantons Zürich, seit 2005 in der Funktion der stellvertretenden Leiterin der Abteilung Evaluation und Qualitätssicherung.
== since 2000, she works as scientific employee in the Psychiatrist-Psychological Service in the Judiciary of the Canton of Zürich, since 2005 in the function of the Deputy Manager of the Department "Evaluation+QualityControl"

There was a second interview
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...story/31317838

AND HERE
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...story/13582786
the article in Tages-Anzeiger, which was an ARTICLE and NOT an "inverview"

Last edited by Wollishofener; 22.11.2012 at 12:30.
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  #122  
Old 22.11.2012, 12:37
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Re: Brasilian guy shot by ex-girlfriend, portrayed as "womanizer" and "kickboxer"

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You above in case of Tages Anzeiger did NOT refer to the article but to the interview
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...story/18743580
And the lady is NOT "from Konstanz" but
Seit 2000 arbeitet sie als wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin beim Psychiatrisch-Psychologischen Dienst (PPD) im Amt für Justizvollzug des Kantons Zürich, seit 2005 in der Funktion der stellvertretenden Leiterin der Abteilung Evaluation und Qualitätssicherung.
== since 2000, she works as scientific employee in the Psychiatrist-Psychological Service in the Judiciary of the Canton of Zürich, since 2005 in the function of the Deputy Manager of the Department "Evaluation+QualityControl"

There was a second interview
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...story/31317838

AND HERE
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...story/13582786
the article in Tages-Anzeiger, which was an ARTICLE and NOT an "inverview"
Thanks Wollishofener, I'd just clicked on the link in the thread, which was to the interview. I only ganced at her short bio; thanks for pointing out that the intereviewee was educated at Konstanz uni but has worked for Kanton Zuri since 2000. The article (the other link) is indeed a better, more balanced piece with interesting, relevant background, with a more-appropriate and informative photo. But is that any surprise? 20 Mins being what it is... oh and the article does mention 'Frauenmagnet' - so I could be corrected there as well...

FB
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  #123  
Old 22.11.2012, 12:50
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Re: Brasilian guy shot by ex-girlfriend, portrayed as "womanizer" and "kickboxer"

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Thanks Wollishofener, I'd just clicked on the link in the thread, which was to the interview. I only ganced at her short bio; thanks for pointing out that the intereviewee was educated at Konstanz uni but has worked for Kanton Zuri since 2000. The article (the other link) is indeed a better, more balanced piece with interesting, relevant background, with a more-appropriate and informative photo. But is that any surprise? 20 Mins being what it is... oh and the article does mention 'Frauenmagnet' - so I could be corrected there as well...

FB
And here the article of NZZ, the other Zürich newspaper of relevance

http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/zuerich/st...ben-1.17821001

for comparison
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  #124  
Old 22.11.2012, 12:51
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Re: Brasilian guy shot by ex-girlfriend, portrayed as "womanizer" and "kickboxer"

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I agree that not having the weapon available might have not led to the victim dying, but the real danger is the the crazy women. You mentioned a moment of madness, was caused this madness and her ability not to control WAS the real danger. This madness would have manifested into an attack with a steak knife or even a fork just as easily. Considering many Swiss households have guns in them, I do not think "weapons in the home" is the answer. That being said, it is much easier to ban all weapons in a bandaid solution than identify and deal with the psychological issues leading to anti-social behavior.
oh I disagree, I believe the weapon issue is key. crimes of passion are long established in European codified law as well as Anglo-Saxon case law.
The woman is not necessarily a pschopath (we don't know the backgrond).

Attacks with knives (steak or other) are far less deadly than guns.
by the look of the deceased I'd suppose he would have had a good chance of defending himself against the woman had she come at him with a knife, rather than shot him.


The UK is a far more violent society than the USA, but the murder rate is far lower. Main reason for that is the relative paucity of guns/deadly weapons (and I do mean relative paucity).

and here in CH hasn't military decided to limit ammunition for militia-issued weapons that can be kept in homes, due to the high rates of suicide assisted by military rifles kept in the home?


Wollishofener - I'd seen the NZZ article. my main point, apart from the dangers of domiciled weapons, is surprise that anyone is surprised at the sensationalist & prurient tone of the 20 Min article. these types of incidents are the meat & potatoes of 20 Mins.
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  #125  
Old 22.11.2012, 13:12
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Re: Brasilian guy shot by ex-girlfriend, portrayed as "womanizer" and "kickboxer"

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oh I disagree, I believe the weapon issue is key. crimes of passion are long established in European codified law as well as Anglo-Saxon case law.
The woman is not necessarily a pschopath (we don't know the backgrond).

Attacks with knives (steak or other) are far less deadly than guns.
by the look of the deceased I'd suppose he would have had a good chance of defending himself against the woman had she come at him with a knife, rather than shot him.


The UK is a far more violent society than the USA, but the murder rate is far lower. Main reason for that is the relative paucity of guns/deadly weapons (and I do mean relative paucity).

and here in CH hasn't military decided to limit ammunition for militia-issued weapons that can be kept in homes, due to the high rates of suicide assisted by military rifles kept in the home?


Wollishofener - I'd seen the NZZ article. my main point, apart from the dangers of domiciled weapons, is surprise that anyone is surprised at the sensationalist & prurient tone of the 20 Min article. these types of incidents are the meat & potatoes of 20 Mins.

Definitely up for debate. As mentioned above, I do agree that there is reduced chance of homicidal out come with a knife as a weapon rather than a gun. However not knowing all the details (type of gun, initial wounds, ensued struggle), there were numerous shots which hit the victim leading one to speculate either 1. The initial shots did not have the desired stopping effect or 2. The culprit unloaded multiple shots out of "passion". In both situations a knife attack would also have severe, potentially fatal results. If the situation was a single shot, from passionate lapse of judgement, the chance of survival from a similar knife attack would be much greater.

Yes, crimes of passion have been successfully documented to reduce legal ramifications, but in my opinion they have as much excuse weight as a culprit using 'alcohol intoxication' as an excuse.
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  #126  
Old 22.11.2012, 13:42
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Re: Brasilian guy shot by ex-girlfriend, portrayed as "womanizer" and "kickboxer"

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Definitely up for debate. As mentioned above, I do agree that there is reduced chance of homicidal out come with a knife as a weapon rather than a gun. However not knowing all the details (type of gun, initial wounds, ensued struggle), there were numerous shots which hit the victim leading one to speculate either 1. The initial shots did not have the desired stopping effect or 2. The culprit unloaded multiple shots out of "passion". In both situations a knife attack would also have severe, potentially fatal results. If the situation was a single shot, from passionate lapse of judgement, the chance of survival from a similar knife attack would be much greater.

Yes, crimes of passion have been successfully documented to reduce legal ramifications, but in my opinion they have as much excuse weight as a culprit using 'alcohol intoxication' as an excuse.

Hi Chemmie
Sorry, I'm not sure I completely follow you.


Your last point first: certainly you are entitled to your opinion, but the 2 main legal systems in the West (which are v different: codified European and precedent/case Anglo Saxon law) both recognise crimes of passion and the passion element is a mitigating factor quite distinct from mitigation (if any) afforded by alcohol/drug influence.


Secondly, clearly society has an interest in reducing homicide; making it less likely that passionate confrontations lead to wrongful death.
Firearms kill much more easily & effectively than knives, which I think you yourself mentioned.
I don't think anyone would dispute that the victim (pictured in the links), would have stood a far greater chance of defending himself if a knife had been used instead of a gun. This would probably have been true even if he hand't seen her coming at him.


sorry, have to get on


bye for now
FB
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Old 22.11.2012, 13:53
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Re: Brasilian guy shot by ex-girlfriend, portrayed as "womanizer" and "kickboxer"

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Hi Chemmie
Sorry, I'm not sure I completely follow you.


Your last point first: certainly you are entitled to your opinion, but the 2 main legal systems in the West (which are v different: codified European and precedent/case Anglo Saxon law) both recognise crimes of passion and the passion element is a mitigating factor quite distinct from mitigation (if any) afforded by alcohol/drug influence.


Secondly, clearly society has an interest in reducing homicide; making it less likely that passionate confrontations lead to wrongful death.
Firearms kill much more easily & effectively than knives, which I think you yourself mentioned.
I don't think anyone would dispute that the victim (pictured in the links), would have stood a far greater chance of defending himself if a knife had been used instead of a gun. This would probably have been true even if he hand't seen her coming at him.


sorry, have to get on


bye for now
FB

Sorry you have to go, but I'll will just point out the flaw I see in your argument.

Historically the Law distinguished as crime of passion as distinct from a crime of intoxication. Agreed, in my opinion both are lapse of judgement, but potentially have faulty subconscious decisions brought up by lapse of judgement whether due to alcohol or passion. Again my opinion and up for debate.

Historically the Law also allows allows for responsible weapon possession, where in your opinion should be amended. Also up for debate (as it has been many times in this forum).

One should not argue for/against a statement using a law as a backing, then argue for/against another statement criticizing the applicable law. Either situation is up for debate regardless of standing laws.
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  #128  
Old 22.11.2012, 18:38
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Re: Brasilian guy shot by ex-girlfriend, portrayed as "womanizer" and "kickboxer"

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Sorry you have to go, but I'll will just point out the flaw I see in your argument.

Historically the Law distinguished as crime of passion as distinct from a crime of intoxication. Agreed, in my opinion both are lapse of judgement, but potentially have faulty subconscious decisions brought up by lapse of judgement whether due to alcohol or passion. Again my opinion and up for debate.

Historically the Law also allows allows for responsible weapon possession, where in your opinion should be amended. Also up for debate (as it has been many times in this forum).

One should not argue for/against a statement using a law as a backing, then argue for/against another statement criticizing the applicable law. Either situation is up for debate regardless of standing laws.
in terms of mitigation I think diminished judgment due to passion, ('crime of passion') is treated differently than that due to alcohol/drugs. passion can be viewed by the court as justifiably mitigating; alcohol/drugs generally aren't.

I'm neither for nor against curtailing possession of firearms. In fact, as a libertarian I believe people have the right to blow their own brains out with their weapon of choice, so long as they don't unreasonably inconvenience others.


sorry, I don't understand your final point. I didnt argue for/against any law or statement; merely pointed out that having deadly weapons to hand very significantly raises the probability of their being used against their owner or his/her loved ones, either by accident or design. The stats show this irrefutably. In this case the woman was clearly destabilised, perhaps even 'off her head' as we say, with rage &/or jealously; or perhaps she's a total nut job. But, had there been no gun to hand (and if I remember rightly it was HIS own gun), as a big, fit athletic bloke used to fighting he probably would have seen what was coming in time and been able to defend himself & survive.

and she wouldn't be facing murder charges; he wouldn't have been deprived of his life; his kid(s) wouldn't be deprived of their father; his sparring partners of their opponent (nor his girlfriends of his attentions, as the case may be......)


it seems to me that the availability of the gun in this sad case turned it into a lose-lose all round


sad

FB
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  #129  
Old 22.11.2012, 20:10
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Re: Brasilian guy shot by ex-girlfriend, portrayed as "womanizer" and "kickboxer"

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That's it ladies and gents!

He was P.I.M.P!
still didn't read all of it but:

He was a bouncer...
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Old 26.11.2012, 13:51
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Re: Brasilian guy shot by ex-girlfriend, portrayed as "womanizer" and "kickboxer"

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still didn't read all of it but:

He was a bouncer...
yes and not a first time bouncer
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