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  #41  
Old 25.12.2012, 08:34
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

If the Portuguese integrate so well then can some one tell me why it is that the majority who I come in contact with (construction industry) speak very little or barely any German ? Even after living here more than 30 years !!!

For me they are good workers but very perfidious (not sure if that's right I just translated 'hinterhältig), in that they are nice to your face but then talk about you behind your back. This is not just coming from me but many others (Swiss) have said the same. I am suspecting this is a Southerner thing as my new Itallian boss is much the same...
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Old 25.12.2012, 08:45
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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One question - why do in particular young portuguese show so many national insignia - such as the national coat of arms in XXL size on the back of their cars (with dark windows)? I even see it sometimes tatooed on some people ???



Aesthetically questionable and not precisely a sign of integration (I'm talking about cars with VD or GE plates here!).

OTOH, for other nationalities you also see the opposite extreme which is not better - (wealthy) foreigners visually over-adapting by sticking the village's coat of arms plus lots of CH / swiss cross stickers etc on their Range Rover - despite the fact they just moved over, don't speak the language nor have any relation whatsoever to that village except paying an overpriced rent there.
I cannot tell for sure, but I am sure they want to state that way that
> they are NOT Spanish (not at all)
> they are NOT Arabs
> they are NOT Muslims
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  #43  
Old 25.12.2012, 08:51
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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If the Portuguese integrate so well then can some one tell me why it is that the majority who I come in contact with (construction industry) speak very little or barely any German ? Even after living here more than 30 years !!!

For me they are good workers but very perfidious (not sure if that's right I just translated 'hinterhältig), in that they are nice to your face but then talk about you behind your back. This is not just coming from me but many others (Swiss) have said the same. I am suspecting this is a Southerner thing as my new Itallian boss is much the same...
Perfidious are quite many people, north and south, east and west. But what I can tell you is why so many foreigners speak German so badly in the construction industry ! the reasons are
A) they if possible group with people of the same orgiin
B) the actual direct bosses are Italians who speak Italian (with everybody)
C) the role of Italian as "lingua franca" in some industries (+ places)
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  #44  
Old 25.12.2012, 11:09
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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Perfidious are quite many people, north and south, east and west. But what I can tell you is why so many foreigners speak German so badly in the construction industry ! the reasons are
A) they if possible group with people of the same orgiin
B) the actual direct bosses are Italians who speak Italian (with everybody)
C) the role of Italian as "lingua franca" in some industries (+ places)
exactly my point. They don't integrate and in my opinion they are a health and safety risk. This I have seen first hand. Unfortunately CH doesn't encourage them to learn the language, instead they provide them with assistance in their own language. They aren't required to adapt to CH, rather CH must adapt to them. Meanwhile I am told that I must learn Italian !!!

Last time I looked this was Deutschschweitz.

I read some where that they are going to bring in new regulations that future immigrants will be granted a 1 year visa in which they must aquire the necessary language skills in order to become a permanent resident.

I really hope CH pulls their finger out and takes some responsibility in helping the 'Mail order' workforce integrate...
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  #45  
Old 25.12.2012, 11:23
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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exactly my point. They don't integrate and in my opinion they are a health and safety risk. This I have seen first hand. Unfortunately CH doesn't encourage them to learn the language, instead they provide them with assistance in their own language. They aren't required to adapt to CH, rather CH must adapt to them. Meanwhile I am told that I must learn Italian !!!

Last time I looked this was Deutschschweitz.

I read some where that they are going to bring in new regulations that future immigrants will be granted a 1 year visa in which they must aquire the necessary language skills in order to become a permanent resident.

I really hope CH pulls their finger out and takes some responsibility in helping the 'Mail order' workforce integrate...
This is nonsense, portuguese citizens are entitled to live and work in Switzerland thanks to bilateral agreement between Switzerland and the EU. Hence it is impossible to force anybody to learn national languages, which anyway would be useless in my opinion. Why learn a language you don't need?
By the way Italian is not a foreign language, but one of three official languages of Switzerland, in par with French and German.
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  #46  
Old 25.12.2012, 11:52
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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Why learn a language you don't need?

By the way Italian is not a foreign language, but one of three official languages of Switzerland, in par with French and German.
Are you for real ??? This is the German speaking part of CH. German is therefore NEEDED. Maybe in your world where E.S.P. gets everyone by is language learning not needed but here on Earth if you have an accident or fall suddenly ill then speaking the LOCAL language could indeed be a great benifit...

By the way, I never said Italian was a foreign language. It is however not the local language of Zurich and the rest of Deutshschweitz.

If I was living in Tessin I would of learnt Italian. Simple as that my friend...
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  #47  
Old 25.12.2012, 13:29
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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This is the German speaking part of CH. German is therefore NEEDED.
Not true. Thousands of people in the financial sector don't speak German and doing fine. Good to know, makes life easier, but certainly not needed.
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  #48  
Old 25.12.2012, 13:56
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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I cannot tell for sure, but I am sure they want to state that way that
> they are NOT Spanish (not at all)
> they are NOT Arabs
> they are NOT Muslims
That doesn't make sense, it should then be spaniards sticking huge coat of arms in their cars to differentiate from portuguese, since the former amount to only 65,800 people and the latter 223,700, and the difference it getting worse since in 2007 there were 65,900 and 183,000, respectively, and there's only 74,800 citizens from the whole of Africa.
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  #49  
Old 25.12.2012, 14:46
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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If the Portuguese integrate so well then can some one tell me why it is that the majority who I come in contact with (construction industry) speak very little or barely any German ? Even after living here more than 30 years !!!

For me they are good workers but very perfidious (not sure if that's right I just translated 'hinterhältig), in that they are nice to your face but then talk about you behind your back. This is not just coming from me but many others (Swiss) have said the same. I am suspecting this is a Southerner thing as my new Itallian boss is much the same...
People who are immigrating to work in construction usually have the least education. Many have never finished basic schooling. It is diffcult for them to learn a language.

It's not the only group of people in the world to live in bubbles. It happens in the US with Spanish speakers, in the UK with Polish, etc, etc, etc, etc.....

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Not true. Thousands of people in the financial sector don't speak German and doing fine. Good to know, makes life easier, but certainly not needed.
No one seems to be upset about all the expats who only speak English.

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One question - why do in particular young portuguese show so many national insignia
FFS. I have a sticker from the region in Portugal I come from, right next to my CH sticker. I'm proud of being from there. It's beautiful and I love it. It doesn't mean I don't "integrate". I'm sure the Portuguese are not the only ones who do this. I've see quite a few black bulls and university of whatever stickers around.

However, there is a national characteristic of "saudade" that makes the Portuguese eternally long for the home land. It's genetic.

I think some of you are looking for a different word: assimilation. I will integrate. I will never assimilate. I am who I am and that is a mix of many influences.
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Old 25.12.2012, 21:34
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Just a heads-up... that symbol in the car is not a Portuguese national symbol... It's the Portuguese Football Federation symbol...



Not to be mistaken with other portuguese national symbols like



(Portuguese Government)

or



(Portuguese flag)

Unfortunately for most of these Portuguese people, Portugal is represented by football... have to admit that I feel a little bit sick everytime I see that symbol...
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  #51  
Old 25.12.2012, 23:44
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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Just a heads-up... that symbol in the car is not a Portuguese national symbol... It's the Portuguese Football Federation symbol...
I was going to mention above too and that there are plenty of football/sports stickers on peoples cars as well as people wearing shirts from the team they support and on one complains.

Personally, I'm not a sports fan, at all. So I forgot.

Thanks for pointing it out.
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  #52  
Old 26.12.2012, 00:51
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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exactly my point. They don't integrate and in my opinion they are a health and safety risk. This I have seen first hand. Unfortunately CH doesn't encourage them to learn the language, instead they provide them with assistance in their own language. They aren't required to adapt to CH, rather CH must adapt to them. Meanwhile I am told that I must learn Italian !!!

Last time I looked this was Deutschschweitz.

I read some where that they are going to bring in new regulations that future immigrants will be granted a 1 year visa in which they must aquire the necessary language skills in order to become a permanent resident.

I really hope CH pulls their finger out and takes some responsibility in helping the 'Mail order' workforce integrate...
CH in fact DOES encourage foreigners to learn the language of their chosen area. But it is obvious that if working in IT and air transport and tourism, the language needed is English, if working in construction the language needed is Italian.

And.... ehhhm, no, the Portuguese here do NOT have to integrate into Spain or into Morocco
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  #53  
Old 26.12.2012, 02:13
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Why is there so much obsession with immigration?

My solution is to ONLY allow marriages among people that are citizens of different countries... Eventually we'll all look the same and speak the same languages.

Problem solved.
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  #54  
Old 26.12.2012, 02:28
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

On a somewhat related topic, Europe’s fading fortunes push young professionals abroad. In spite of the title the article is entirely about Portuguese professionals who have relocated to Brazil (a Portuguese speaking country):
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SAO PAULO, Brazil

Tiago Lambuca left Portugal to search for work here as an architect, but the decision to emigrate was about more than earning a wage.

It was a generational choice, of a growing region over one he feels is exhausted; of a place where he could build a career over one where people his age often must skate from one temporary job to another.

...

After five years of slow growth or recession and an increasing sense of Europe’s limits, Lambuca is not alone. He and other young Portuguese professionals have begun turning to Brazil, a former Portuguese colony that shares the language, as a culturally familiar way to escape their home nation’s doldrums.
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Old 26.12.2012, 02:47
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

F.. F..k's sake, why pick on the Portuguese when there are a lot of nationalities in Switzerland who don't speak the regional language?

How can people learn a language on a building site when they are working with people who don't speak their language or German? My head get's done in because there are so many cultural, supposedly educated people on this forum who react in such a schitty manner.

You could say Swiss, British or Ethiopian. Try human.
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  #56  
Old 26.12.2012, 06:18
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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Are you for real ??? This is the German speaking part of CH. German is therefore NEEDED. Maybe in your world where E.S.P. gets everyone by is language learning not needed but here on Earth if you have an accident or fall suddenly ill then speaking the LOCAL language could indeed be a great benifit...

By the way, I never said Italian was a foreign language. It is however not the local language of Zurich and the rest of Deutshschweitz.

If I was living in Tessin I would of learnt Italian. Simple as that my friend...
Right you are indeed. In the Canton of Zürich (just as in both Appenzell, St. Gallen, Glarus, Uri, Schwyz, Unterwalden, Luzern, Zug, Aargau, and both Basel) only German is official language. In the Cantons of Solothurn and Bern you have German AND French, in Fribourg/Freiburg and Valais/Wallis French AND German, but in Jura, Neuchâtel, Vaud and Geneva only French, in Ticino only Italian, in Graubünden German, Italian and Romansh (but NOT French ! )

Here in the house where I am, we have two Portuguese households, and they (plasterers & courier drivers etc) all speak German remarkably well (accent/mistakes/errors yes, but ..) and people at TAP Portugal and former office colleagues all DID speak German. So, when saying that "the" Portuguese here speak German, I did NOT refer to university-people.

YOU however referred quite clearly to the construction-industry, and in that particular industry, ITALIAN is THE lingua-franca. In case you work in construction, I might tell you that learning Italian IS a requirement. And if you work in electronics, transports and tourism, the language you HAVE TO learn is English.

Clearly, whomever lives in the Canton of Zürich and does not speak German clearly is DISadvantaged, and this quite seriously. Whatever the mother-tongue may be.
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Old 26.12.2012, 09:46
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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YOU however referred quite clearly to the construction-industry, and in that particular industry, ITALIAN is THE lingua-franca. In case you work in construction, I might tell you that learning Italian IS a requirement. And if you work in electronics, transports and tourism, the language you HAVE TO learn is English.
Yes Italian seems to be the most widely spoken language in construction here. WHY ? My guess is that the first wave of working immigrants, Italians, could not be bothered learning the local language.

I don't wish to pick on one single nationality but in my experience working with Italians, Serbians, Albanians, Spanish, Portuguese, Hungarians etc, it seems that only the 'Olive countries' have no interest in learning the local language...

I started out here working in transport and found that most people could speak English. However from the first month I arrived here I attended German school. To date I have dished out close to 7000 chuffs in German school fees !!!
Also I don't come from a privileged family. I had to invest in my future like most people in the world...

I'm not here to put myself up on a pedestal, I only want to show that if all immigrants choose to learn the local language then they will no longer be disadvantaged and they could also have the chance of working their way up the ladder.

I know this problem is not unique to CH and apparently is also present in my country of Australia, although in the last company I worked for there we had at least 100 Portuguese, all of whom spoke decent English. I believe this is due to the fact of compulsary English tests for visa applicants...

For me the main point is the subject of health and safety. I once witnessed an accident in where a roofer cut his arm open quite severely. My colleague was outside at the time. He could not understand the roofer who was down on the street about 50 meters away. He simply went on his way doing his thing. I asked him what was the screaming about, 'Ich nicht weiss' I then went outside and enquired as to what was wrong, to which the guy yelled out that he needed to get to hospital urgently da da da da da
What if the accident had been much more serious and the matter of minutes was the difference between life and death ? or what if my colleague had an accident, fell down a man hole or what ever and was unable to communicate basic German ???

There are many native Swiss here working in construction that do not speak italian. Are you saying that they should have to learn a foreign language just in order to work in their own canton ?
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  #58  
Old 26.12.2012, 10:15
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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Yes Italian seems to be the most widely spoken language in construction here. WHY ? My guess is that the first wave of working immigrants, Italians, could not be bothered learning the local language.

I don't wish to pick on one single nationality but in my experience working with Italians, Serbians, Albanians, Spanish, Portuguese, Hungarians etc, it seems that only the 'Olive countries' have no interest in learning the local language...

I started out here working in transport and found that most people could speak English. However from the first month I arrived here I attended German school. To date I have dished out close to 7000 chuffs in German school fees !!!
Also I don't come from a privileged family. I had to invest in my future like most people in the world...

I'm not here to put myself up on a pedestal, I only want to show that if all immigrants choose to learn the local language then they will no longer be disadvantaged and they could also have the chance of working their way up the ladder.

I know this problem is not unique to CH and apparently is also present in my country of Australia, although in the last company I worked for there we had at least 100 Portuguese, all of whom spoke decent English. I believe this is due to the fact of compulsary English tests for visa applicants...

For me the main point is the subject of health and safety. I once witnessed an accident in where a roofer cut his arm open quite severely. My colleague was outside at the time. He could not understand the roofer who was down on the street about 50 meters away. He simply went on his way doing his thing. I asked him what was the screaming about, 'Ich nicht weiss' I then went outside and enquired as to what was wrong, to which the guy yelled out that he needed to get to hospital urgently da da da da da
What if the accident had been much more serious and the matter of minutes was the difference between life and death ? or what if my colleague had an accident, fell down a man hole or what ever and was unable to communicate basic German ???

There are many native Swiss here working in construction that do not speak italian. Are you saying that they should have to learn a foreign language just in order to work in their own canton ?
To start at the bottom, anybody in construction tells you that having a minimal command of Italian will help you. Quite many Italians who speak German well enough tend to use Italian out of nothing. If you show that you understand them you gain respect. And middle management in construction is fest in italienischer Hand

U
p to the start. While I do not quite know what "olive countries" are, most of the Med. foreigners, even when pretending otherwise, speak German well enough. Check it yourself and mention that this or that today is GRATIS they will react immediately and precisely

The idiot you mentioned understood perfectly well but wanted to avoid responsibility and saw YOU and thought that this was enough.

Sometimes, even a meagre command can help. My brother when learning car mechanic once was told by an Italian colleague "Diä Maggina magge dä Schtärb" and the matter was clear and by another Italian
"Igg scho vili Jahr in Svizzera" which was clear as well
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Old 26.12.2012, 12:19
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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Yes Italian seems to be the most widely spoken language in construction here. WHY ? My guess is that the first wave of working immigrants, Italians, could not be bothered learning the local language.

I don't wish to pick on one single nationality but in my experience working with Italians, Serbians, Albanians, Spanish, Portuguese, Hungarians etc, it seems that only the 'Olive countries' have no interest in learning the local language...
Sigh. You mean in the German speaking part of the country right? They are much more likely to learn French or Italian. Romance language speakers do better in Romance language countries.

Like I said, the people working in construction have had most likely had very little formal education which makes it more difficult to learn a language.

Could is be that Serbian, Albanian, etc are more likely to have had some exposure to German or the language is a bit more similar?

Not sure why you're upset about this but have not one word all the other expats/nationalities who don't bother to learn the local language.


ETA: I should add that I once read a study about the Portuguese diaspora which indicated that Portuguese immigrants to countries with romance languages were more successful than those who moved to other countries. I'm sure that this would be true for other populations. Not sure. Maybe someone should do a PHD on it.
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Old 26.12.2012, 16:28
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Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

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Could is be that Serbian, Albanian, etc are more likely to have had some exposure to German or the language is a bit more similar?

Not sure why you're upset about this but have not one word all the other expats/nationalities who don't bother to learn the local language.
I can't imagine that Serbian and Albanian is in any way similar to German. Italian though is another story.

What is upsetting is that it is almost impossible to communicate with some of these guys. Hello, 30 years and you cant carry a very basic conversation !!!

After learning German I remain in the minority in my workplace because I don't speak Italian. 'Learn Italian then' you say. Well not that easy as I am doing a 'Zweitelehre' and attend 'Berufschule' 2 times a week, not leaving too much time or energy for learning another language. However once I am finished in 18 months I plan to learn Spanish...

You speak of their lack of education as being the reason for not learning the local language.... Absolute rubbish !!!

I left school at 14 and decided only at 26 that I wanted to go to uni.
I Busted my arse acquiring a high school certificate in order to gain entry to uni.

Upon arriving in CH I jumped straight into German school and although the first 6 months was incredibly hard and I came across a lot of resistance from myself, at one stage I declared to my wife that I was simply someone that could not learn a foreign language and that was that. I even told her that it was pointless as in 20 years most of Europe will speak English anyways... I was desperate...

However I didn't give in and after another 6 months I was having German conversations left, right and center.

Our company has paid for a lot of these guys to attend German schooling even with the promise that once they reach a certain level they will receive a pay rise.
Most of them didn't even go and the ones that went only attended the first week or 2... Just down right lazy I'm afraid. Sorry I'm just calling a spade a spade. It's actually quite sad because If they did learn German then the would not only get a pay rise but could also do a 'Weiterbildung' like 'Polierschule'

The whole thing gets up my nose because myself and many others are at a loss and disadvantaged, not to mention the safety aspect I mentioned in my previous post.
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