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Old 22.01.2013, 10:43
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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Example: I have moved legally to Switzerland, to work. I have rented legally a flat, and my neighbour next door is Swiss from, say, Uri. He also works.

Now, why on Earth I should be paying higher taxes, or have any less entitlement than him, is beyond me. Because his ancestors have built an infrastructure? Because his blood is more pure than mine?

By the same logic, would you agree that his child should have priority in a hospital over mine? Or there should be separate schools for pure-blood children, with better teachers and tools, since they come from the families that inhabited this place longer than my child's family?
Please keep this discussion serious. We are not in Singapore where locals get some goverments benefits that foreigners do not get.

It's not a question of being taxed higher than a swiss it is more rather to be taxed with the same quotation. Nothing more and nothing less

By the way to speak with swiss people or read articles in a newspaper about this issue helps to understand the problem from both sides
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  #62  
Old 22.01.2013, 10:45
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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So the question is, will foreigners stop coming to Switzerland because of the higher taxes? Like many have already said, it's a bit too socializtic for my taste. Why can't everyone be treated equally and have a fair tax system?
To answer your question: They will not stop
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Old 22.01.2013, 10:49
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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They will miss us when we are gone!
Agree with you but you ought to admit that you would miss us too
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Old 22.01.2013, 10:50
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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Just as disingenuous as blaming the Government for you choosing to pay twice as much for something you say you never use
What thread are you reading? I never 'blamed' anyone. I just said that the system here (which I also stated several times I approve of!) sets it that way.

What on earth do you mean by my "choosing to pay twice as much" - I always choose to pay the lowest, or near-lowest (I don't go for one that has no customer feedback), quote I get. Beyond that I have no choice - it is mandated.

Honestly, a 26 year old paying the same as a 113 year old is rather unique. And therefore, rather than insurance in a traditional sense, the system here acts as an indirect tax by way of being mandatory and by way of being irrespective of personal circumstances.
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Old 22.01.2013, 10:50
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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Please keep this discussion serious. We are not in Singapore where locals get some goverments benefits that foreigners do not get.

It's not a question of being taxed higher than a swiss it is more rather to be taxed with the same quotation. Nothing more and nothing less

By the way to speak with swiss people or read articles in a newspaper about this issue helps to understand the problem from both sides
You may want to reread the original post, because Reiner Eichenberger is most definitely proposing that foreigners be taxed at a higher rate than the Swiss.
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  #66  
Old 22.01.2013, 10:57
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

What a schmuck. Foreigners here are either scraping by, working hard and getting paid very little, OR they are doing jobs that the Swiss are not properly trained to do. If they want to reduce the number of foreigners, then do a better job of training workers. 50% of the doctors here are German, because they don't train enough doctors. 100% of the opera singers here (like me) are foreign because they train no one here on an international level. They need to stop bitching about foreigners and do a better job.
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Old 22.01.2013, 11:05
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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What thread are you reading? I never 'blamed' anyone. I just said that the system here (which I also stated several times I approve of!) sets it that way.

What on earth do you mean by my "choosing to pay twice as much" - I always choose to pay the lowest, or near-lowest (I don't go for one that has no customer feedback), quote I get. Beyond that I have no choice - it is mandated.

Honestly, a 26 year old paying the same as a 113 year old is rather unique. And therefore, rather than insurance in a traditional sense, the system here acts as an indirect tax by way of being mandatory and by way of being irrespective of personal circumstances.

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The system here is not like most insurance anywhere else in the world in that it is a fixed rate regardless of age, lifestyle .... Otherwise I would be paying CHF 100 per month and not over 300!
The cheapest premium living in Schwyz town is 138 Fr. Your paying 300 Fr. You do the maths.

Groan away
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Old 22.01.2013, 11:07
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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The cheapest premium living in Schwyz town is 138 Fr. Your paying 300 Fr. You do the maths.

Groan away
I don't live in Schwyz town - I live in Kanton Schwyz. I pay 2 premiums - one for myself and one for my wife. Believe me CHF 317 is the second cheapest option for both of us on basic compulsory health insurance with a CHF 2,500 excess!

My maths are fine - what is your problem?
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Old 22.01.2013, 11:08
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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You may want to reread the original post, because Reiner Eichenberger is most definitely proposing that foreigners be taxed at a higher rate than the Swiss.
I know but thanks. Reiner Eichenberger is an expert with interesting ideas but always polarising. As always when it comes to money the discussion is getting very emotional. I don't wanna tax foreigners higher than swiss but as I said in my post also not lower. Are you agree with me?

For all of you: Reiner Eichenbergers advise will never ever be realised. So for those of you who mentioned to leave our country if this should happens.
Nobody will ask you to leave, it is up to you if you decide to do so we wish you a good journey and thank you for beeing here. Do not worry someone else will fill your gap very soon.
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Old 22.01.2013, 11:15
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

There is a great deal of complacency amongst some in this country right now. Assuming that successful, educated foreigners will endlessly queue up to come and work here. That reality is being dealt a steady blow at the moment by the US and EU authorities increasingly cracking down on not only the Swiss banking sectors but also multinationals seeking to escape tighter regulations and taxation by relocating here. Those corporations are a fickle bunch and will not hesitate to move on to whichever other place is offering a better deal.

I suspect that before too many years pass Switzerland will, far less than imposing increased taxes on skilled foreign workers, be incentivising them as they seek to keep over-priced apartments and restaurants occupied. Either that or, if the less imaginative get their way, the place will close its doors and revert to being an agrarian economy with a sideline in tourism.

Switzerland has enjoyed a period of great prosperity and political stability but this never lasts anywhere at any time in history. Switzerland cannot remain immune from the turmoil in Europe or from the inescapable fact that wealth is gravitating Eastwards from the Western world. Indeed the effects can already be seen when taking a step back and observing dispassionately.
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Old 22.01.2013, 11:37
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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I know but thanks. Reiner Eichenberger is an expert with interesting ideas but always polarising. As always when it comes to money the discussion is getting very emotional. I don't wanna tax foreigners higher than swiss but as I said in my post also not lower. Are you agree with me?

For all of you: Reiner Eichenbergers advise will never ever be realised. So for those of you who mentioned to leave our country if this should happens.
Nobody will ask you to leave, it is up to you if you decide to do so we wish you a good journey and thank you for beeing here. Do not worry someone else will fill your gap very soon.
hochnäsig is as hochnäsig does. I appreciate the legitimate concern around immigration and its cultural and societal impact here just as I do in my home country, but the people's proper avenue is to approach their local government officials and the businesses that are profiting from the current immigration scheme.
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Old 22.01.2013, 11:41
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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I don't live in Schwyz town - I live in Kanton Schwyz. I pay 2 premiums - one for myself and one for my wife. Believe me CHF 317 is the second cheapest option for both of us on basic compulsory health insurance with a CHF 2,500 excess!

My maths are fine - what is your problem?

I don't have a problem. I understood you paid 300 Fr for yourself especially as you said you would hope if all risks are included you'd be paying 100 Fr. Personally I find it some what optimistic to expect 50 Fr per month would be enough to cover ones risks, regardless of age.

I still fail to see though how foreigners are disadvantaged by the system though. You say you'll be leaving before your old enough to use the system but at the same time a 35 year old could come here and get cancer after a year. He would be benefiting from the premiums a healthy 35 year old Swiss guy has paid all his life without using the system.

I'd say it's more the roll of the dice life gives you rather than your nationality which decides whether you benefit from the system, although the health system is one you hope never to benefit from.
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  #73  
Old 22.01.2013, 11:44
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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it will always be cheaper for institutions and private enterprises to hire foreign labor,

a deterrent against which could be higher taxes for that kind of labor, as this would narrow the gap at least a bit.
But why would you want to inflict such penalties on Swiss industry?

Anyway, the whole idea is just an example of protectionist nonsense. Protecting Swiss people's salaries (always assuming, incorrectly, as it happens, that sufficient qualified Swiss people could be found) would simply make prices higher, thereby reducing competitiveness on the international market, thereby dragging Swiss industry down, thereby reducing employment opportunities for Swiss people as well as the foreign scum you seem so anxious to persecute.
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Old 22.01.2013, 11:48
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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I don't have a problem. I understood you paid 300 Fr for yourself especially as you said you would hope if all risks are included you'd be paying 100 Fr. Personally I find it some what optimistic to expect 50 Fr per month would be enough to cover ones risks, regardless of age.

I still fail to see though how foreigners are disadvantaged by the system though. You say you'll be leaving before your old enough to use the system but at the same time a 35 year old could come here and get cancer after a year. He would be benefiting from the premiums a healthy 35 year old Swiss guy has paid all his life without using the system.

I'd say it's more the roll of the dice life gives you rather than your nationality which decides whether you benefit from the system, although the health system is one you hope never to benefit from.
I'm no actuary but I do know that people in their 60s, 70s and 80s cost a LOT more to maintain than those in their 20s, 30s and 40s. Of course one can be dreadfully incapacitated in their 20s with chronic illness that costs thousands, but the fact remains it is far more likely in those post-retirement. That is why I can get better medical insurance for a fraction of the price once I leave Switzerland.

As far as finding coverage for a third of the cost I'm forced to pay here - honestly that is achievable on an international healthcare package with the right deductible (I've been getting quotes recently in advance of our move). As I said earlier it even pays for things like ambulances which standard healthcare cover here does not!
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Old 22.01.2013, 11:50
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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On the other hand, if you are living in a high tax community, are taxed at source and not obliged to file a tax return, then why should a C-permit holder or a Swiss national pay more tax than you?
Because that's the way the Swiss decided to set up the tax at source system. One of the fallouts of taking great pride in having an efficient tax system, I'd say.
And, as we all know, it also works the other way round in low-tax communities.
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Old 22.01.2013, 11:51
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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Please read my post further up this page. The point is we are charged as if we are going to be using it in our old age regardless of the fact we are only here in our young prime!
I don't understand why you make this assumption that foreigners in Switzerland are only here for the short term. That may be the case for you, and if so then I suggest you just view your 'unfair' premium as part of the short-term price you have to pay, but I for one, and I know many others, have no intention whatsoever of returning to my country of origin when I retire.
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Old 22.01.2013, 11:57
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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I don't understand why you make this assumption that foreigners in Switzerland are only here for the short term. That may be the case for you, and if so then I suggest you just view your 'unfair' premium as part of the short-term price you have to pay, but I for one, and I know many others, have no intention whatsoever of returning to my country of origin when I retire.

Good luck to you, and indeed there are many here on the English Forum who have obtained Swiss citizenship! However, in that case does one not cease to be a foreigner?!

Frustratingly you miss-quote me - I never used the term "unfair" and have REPEATEDLY stated that I am a fan of the system such that the elderly are not left high and dry. That does not change the fact that it is, in essence, a form of higher taxation for the majority of foreigners who are here on a short-term (sub 5 year) basis in their fittest years.

The fact is a great number of foreigners are here for short-term contracts or move and decide it is not for them or never had any intention of staying in the first place. There are huge numbers who come here for 6, 12 , 24 or 36 months and then move on. Even people who settle abroad for decades tend to return to their home countries to die.
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  #78  
Old 22.01.2013, 12:13
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

So much noise for this nonsense. I think Herr Professor will have to back up his assertion, before anyone starts taking him seriously. As much as I know Swiss people they are pretty divided when it comes to taxes or education. I really don't believe the cantons will change their politics all of a sudden, with the risk of some losing their foreign investments or "attractiveness".
And don't forget this is politics everywhere around the world, lots of talks but little real measures. Propaganda against foreigners putting pressure on infrastructure - wonderful health and wealth system, education and so on, should not surprise the British, for instance.
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Old 22.01.2013, 12:22
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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Good luck to you, and indeed there are many here on the English Forum who have obtained Swiss citizenship! However, in that case does one not cease to be a foreigner?!
Staying here when I retire has no implication at all that I'd take Swiss nationality. I can't see myself ever wanting to do that.

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That does not change the fact that it is, in essence, a form of higher taxation for the majority of foreigners who are here on a short-term (sub 5 year) basis in their fittest years.
No, it's not. Being unable to gain the same benefit from payments made is not the same as making higher payments.
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Old 22.01.2013, 12:35
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Re: Foreigners should pay higher taxes

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No, it's not. Being unable to gain the same benefit from payments made is not the same as making higher payments.
Look at it as it is. Under a market system someone would pay e.g. CHF 50/mth in their 30s and CHF 1000/mth in their 70s. Here one pays e.g. CHF 150/mth regardless of whether they are in their 30s or their 70s. When that person leaves Switzerland still in their 30s and are no longer around to derive the benefit (in old age) of the vastly increased premium (paid in their younger days) this in essence is a form of higher taxation.

This is not as obvious as say an extra 2% income tax but it nevertheless is undeniably at the expense of the short-term foreign worker and to the benefit of the native Swiss population. I say this because regardless of whatever quality of international healthcare coverage one has in place, one is forced to purchase the Swiss insurance. It is compulsory, just like a tax even if one's own (non-Swiss basic mandatory) coverage would provide the cover necessary for the year or two spent in Switzerland.
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