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  #181  
Old 30.07.2017, 14:26
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

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Show me an Indian software engineer locked up in Swiss jail and I am happy to pay his bail.
They would probably get deported immediately? And why only software engineers? Is that a special type of never doing anything wrong people?

https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/de/home...il.929842.html

https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/de/home...il.929835.html
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  #182  
Old 30.07.2017, 16:21
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

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I miss that French cartoonist on page 7.. he was so active and suddenly gave up Let him have the last word. I'm sure it'll be word "stupid" used a 100 times, followed by some racist cartoon. The French are experts in it.
.
Who? CourseboutheReturn? Actually I think he must be Italian lol
All the French I know are extremely politically correct in real life, one must start some racist jokes on his own nationality to make the atmosphere less boring.
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  #183  
Old 31.07.2017, 23:47
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

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So the indian influx has already happened, they have stole all the jobs and they're here to stay (at least until their permits run out). So it's highly unwise to post any cartoons with animals with blackened faces (whether from fantasy world or real), or display your half-baked knowledge about how Indian kids are raised. You're only widening the communal divide. It's time your kids read a book or two, instead of partying, drinking and taking drugs. Also, be thankful that the non-EU cannot just continue to stay on sucking benefits once their job contract ends. They pack bags and have to leave. It's the EU influx that's far more damaging.


Hello, about your following comment -
"It's time your kids read a book or two, instead of partying, drinking and taking drugs. Also, be thankful that the non-EU cannot just continue to stay on sucking benefits once their job contract ends. They pack bags and have to leave. It's the EU influx that's far more damaging"


are you not stereotyping , generalising and making sweeping assumptions about so many countries ?


Its not a perfect world , racism is a reality and its almost everywhere. Remember its definition is just not limited to ethinicities , nationalities, color etc but it covers a lot of many more things which one may think as normal. its a kind of mixture of intolerance, xenophobia, personal biases , prejudices .



See the ranking of racist countries - India and Jordan are on the top


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...prise-you.html

Last edited by New_Elephant; 01.08.2017 at 00:00. Reason: make it more precise
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  #184  
Old 01.08.2017, 00:58
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

What I don't understand about the large scale outsourcing being undertaken by UBS and others is, what jobs will be left for all the Swiss kids who will be graduating in the next few years?

I think we all understand why Switzerland has such a large contingent of highly paid foreign workers in certain fields, but I can only see that this level of outsourcing will seriously damage the prospects of the native population also.
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  #185  
Old 01.08.2017, 01:13
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

Large scale of outsourcing from such a small country will definitely create problem in long run.

When outsourcing to India or other countries will have issues like
Attrition - many worked in a prj leaving with their knowledge and at the end no one know whats going on

In countries like India ,people can learn SAP for just 300 chf but in swiss you can imagine.

Goverment of switzerland should take some initiative to groom up location population to fullfil its need instead of outsourcing or permitting others to the country.

They can have subsided or promoting such software used in swiss banking firms or outsourcing firm.

On the other hand. Swiss immigration is not fool proof even though they are taking various measure.

I have see various cases of Indian IT engineers who came in work permit never went back .

There are various way to get visa.

For ex :

1 ) b permit holder (closed) from zurich canton will transfer to lausanne then permit is getting open to other employers

2) before the completion of 2 years L permit . Just look around small umberlla company pay around 20k chf get swiss permit but here you need to search for your prj

3)company itself apply for L to B Conversion

4)Offshore n number of jobs in your then your client will recommend
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  #186  
Old 01.08.2017, 01:26
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

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What I don't understand about the large scale outsourcing being undertaken by UBS and others is, what jobs will be left for all the Swiss kids who will be graduating in the next few years?

I think we all understand why Switzerland has such a large contingent of highly paid foreign workers in certain fields, but I can only see that this level of outsourcing will seriously damage the prospects of the native population also.
Swiss kids have not been too keen on IT in the first place. That's why the import of UK and EU expats is based on - a lack of local talent willing to do the job. The lowering of the costs came only second and at least a decade later...

But to answer your question: IT at its very core is supposed to make things more efficient. Yes, sometimes with rather limited success, but it remains the basic idea. The current overall trend is to outsource your IT infrastructure and share it with others. (Sales people tend to call it "the Cloud"...). If your infrastructure is not in your company anymore and most likely not even the country, will all those jobs leave anyway.

Fun fact: I don't see them coming to India... the shared platforms will need far less people, so the price difference matters less than quality of the resource. The long story of Indian IT in my personal short version: Lots of kids are not sure what to chose to study. When in doubt, do Zurich kids either do a business apprenticeship ("KV"), or study business administration or finance. Cause the jobs are in the banks and insurances. German kids will choose mechanical or automotive engineering, cause it basically guarantees a decent job. Indian kids? They choose IT. Because that's a dominant industry and has, a bit unlike Europe, a very accepted social standing with it.

The point is: IT is a bit different from an average business administration course. Business is so generic that pretty much everyone can find some area they are good at. IT requires a certain set of abilities that not everyone has. Its the kind of thing nobody studies by coincidence in Europe, but because they have passion. If you don't have that passion for it, but only study it because it gets you a decent job in an airconditioned office will you suck at it. I have worked for years with Indian companies and some of the smartest IT people I ever met were Indians. But also the vast number of the worst I met. The smart ones are very aware of their abilities and neither cheap nor easily available. Their employers know that they can pull a whole team of 20 people who otherwise suck to an somewhat acceptable level by telling every colleagues exactly what to do. In the near future will those huge teams be a thing of the past. The smart ones will keep their jobs and probably land some in the countries where the datacenters will be at. The other 80-90% will sooner or later be replaced by machine learning.
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  #187  
Old 01.08.2017, 16:43
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

There's a lot of anti-outsourcing as well as anti-migration sentiment here on EF. Almost 9/10 posts incline in that direction. While anti-outsourcing sentiment can be explained by vested personal interests, the anti-migration feelings are highly ironic, given that it's coming from migrants themselves. Several faulty arguments are thrown:

Stats on prisoners' origins?? If non-EU are deported immediately, as someone suggested (and was promptly thanked for that astute observation), who's really inside the Swiss prisons? And are you really arguing that "influx of Indians" is leading to swelling prison population? I'd then like to visit a prison one day and count how many UBS software engineers are in there.

Scouring internet for something negative on India or offering your "management consultancy" on problems in India - all this can be saved for the time when Indian government hires you as a policy advisor. Until then best advice I can offer, as a life coach, is to work on your personal situation. This is a forum. Anyone can offer a free consultancy.

Nobody complained when Google opened their office in Zurich moving 3000 jobs from elsewhere. The tax deals and abuse of "transfer pricing" (I suggest you search internet for this term, instead of right-wing news) that happens when companies open their Swiss branch is astonishing. If people believe that they are so highly talented in IT, why not apply to Google? Why not apply to Glencore that's ever-expanding, thanks to yet another tax deal from Zug?

The fact is the days of 2000 CHF/day billing rates, in Excel sheet, SQL query, copy-paste jobs are over. Companies have quickly realized that this can be done at 300 CHF/month (okay, may be 3000, but it still beats a penguin in a suit in Paradeplatz). And angry people are desparate to find a scapegoat for this industry change. It may not be the most sensitive thing to say, or not what people like to hear, but that's reality.


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  #188  
Old 01.08.2017, 16:53
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

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There's a lot of anti-outsourcing as well as anti-migration sentiment here on EF. Almost 9/10 posts incline in that direction. While anti-outsourcing sentiment can be explained by vested personal interests, the anti-migration feelings are highly ironic, given that it's coming from migrants themselves. Several faulty arguments are thrown:

Stats on prisoners' origins?? If non-EU are deported immediately, as someone suggested (and was promptly thanked for that astute observation), who's really inside the Swiss prisons? And are you really arguing that "influx of Indians" is leading to swelling prison population? I'd then like to visit a prison one day and count how many UBS software engineers are in there.

Scouring internet for something negative on India or offering your "management consultancy" on problems in India - all this can be saved for the time when Indian government hires you as a policy advisor. Until then best advice I can offer, as a life coach, is to work on your personal situation. This is a forum. Anyone can offer a free consultancy.

Nobody complained when Google opened their office in Zurich moving 3000 jobs from elsewhere. The tax deals and abuse of "transfer pricing" (I suggest you search internet for this term, instead of right-wing news) that happens when companies open their Swiss branch is astonishing. If people believe that they are so highly talented in IT, why not apply to Google? Why not apply to Glencore that's ever-expanding, thanks to yet another tax deal from Zug?

The fact is the days of 2000 CHF/day billing rates, in Excel sheet, SQL query, copy-paste jobs are over. Companies have quickly realized that this can be done at 300 CHF/month (okay, may be 3000, but it still beats a penguin in a suit in Paradeplatz). And angry people are desparate to find a scapegoat for this industry change. It may not be the most sensitive thing to say, or not what people like to hear, but that's reality.
For a life coach you are pretty biaised.
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  #189  
Old 01.08.2017, 17:01
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

What would an unbiased life coach advise then? I think my consultancy in post: https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-po...ml#post2824337 was pretty rational and is intended to be helpful.
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  #190  
Old 01.08.2017, 18:26
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

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What would an unbiased life coach advise then? I think my consultancy in post: https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-po...ml#post2824337 was pretty rational and is intended to be helpful.
Considering that your job profile classifies you as "IT Banking stuff", it's no wonder that no-one takes you seriously
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  #191  
Old 01.08.2017, 18:27
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

1) Non EU prisoners are not immediately deported. Would be nice, especially for the Swiss tax payer, but isn't reality. Especially not into countries which are corrupt and cannot guarantee proper prison terms for them.

2) I don't have sentiments against outsourcing because I have a personal interest. Quite the opposite - I work for a company offering IT services and besides many other things do we have a few thousand Indian colleagues on offer. My job is to sell whatever customers want from our portfolio, so I am more than happy to sell anyone a project team in India. My remarks were based on first hand experience, not some vague feelings. During my years as a project manager did I have to fly to India more than once to rescue screwed up IT projects with 40 guys sitting around not knowing what they are supposed to do (but with no intention to ask anyone till you are specficially assigned a task...). I met "project managers" who literally didn't know what a project plan should look like despite having a full on PMP training. And on the 300 USD SAP courses... I somewhere still have a photo I took of a juice stand beside the road which sold young coconuts and SAP courses...

3) My points on Indian IT jobs being at risk due to digitalization is not exactly some biased fringe view... you'll find tons of articles on the same.
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  #192  
Old 01.08.2017, 18:42
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

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What I don't understand about the large scale outsourcing being undertaken by UBS and others is, what jobs will be left for all the Swiss kids who will be graduating in the next few years?

I think we all understand why Switzerland has such a large contingent of highly paid foreign workers in certain fields, but I can only see that this level of outsourcing will seriously damage the prospects of the native population also.
The talent coming out of Uni UZH or ETH after fulfilling their bachelors / masters will avoid the banks like the plague (am living it with my daughter)
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  #193  
Old 01.08.2017, 19:43
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

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The talent coming out of Uni UZH or ETH after fulfilling their bachelors / masters will avoid the banks like the plague (am living it with my daughter)
Why not? What do they prefer?

I'm curious as I just got ZappaJr off my back (masters in Business Information Systems) - set up with an IT audit job with KPMG in Lyon - he'd love to work for a Swiss bank. All offers welcome...
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  #194  
Old 01.08.2017, 19:48
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

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What I don't understand about the large scale outsourcing being undertaken by UBS and others is, what jobs will be left for all the Swiss kids who will be graduating in the next few years?

I think we all understand why Switzerland has such a large contingent of highly paid foreign workers in certain fields, but I can only see that this level of outsourcing will seriously damage the prospects of the native population also.
The job prospects of Switzerland's young is far from the worries of UBS's management. (Apparent) shareholder value and this year's bonus is all that they care about.
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  #195  
Old 01.08.2017, 20:04
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

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Why not? What do they prefer?

I'm curious as I just got ZappaJr off my back (masters in Business Information Systems) - set up with an IT audit job with KPMG in Lyon - he'd love to work for a Swiss bank. All offers welcome...
My daughter's doing really well in the same studies - going into the bachelor Arbeit next semester, and loving it.

Following that the masters. She's also successful in her in-between internship.

Thanks for your input - I knew before that I might just be on the wrong side of the Bank. Definitely time for a change.
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  #196  
Old 01.08.2017, 20:46
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

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What I don't understand about the large scale outsourcing being undertaken by UBS and others is, what jobs will be left for all the Swiss kids who will be graduating in the next few years?

I think we all understand why Switzerland has such a large contingent of highly paid foreign workers in certain fields, but I can only see that this level of outsourcing will seriously damage the prospects of the native population also.
The environment evolves. Lower skill and mass market IT jobs move on either with a lower price (so attracting onshore, nearshore or offshore) while new, innovative technologies take hold. IT transformation has been happening for many years now, just like the dot com boom, yet employment in Switzerland remains stable. If you weren't very good or at your job to start with maybe time will catch up for you, but I don't think the Swiss IT graduates of today will fare any worse now or in 5 years.

Automation will transform our lives in the medium term and that affects a whole lot more than IT. The people who want to be worried today are builders, insurance clerks, accountants and possibly doctors.
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  #197  
Old 02.08.2017, 12:23
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Re: UBS IT Outsourcing

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2) I don't have sentiments against outsourcing because I have a personal interest. Quite the opposite - I work for a company offering IT services and besides many other things do we have a few thousand Indian colleagues on offer. My job is to sell whatever customers want from our portfolio, so I am more than happy to sell anyone a project team in India. My remarks were based on first hand experience, not some vague feelings. During my years as a project manager did I have to fly to India more than once to rescue screwed up IT projects with 40 guys sitting around not knowing what they are supposed to do (but with no intention to ask anyone till you are specficially assigned a task...). I met "project managers" who literally didn't know what a project plan should look like despite having a full on PMP training. And on the 300 USD SAP courses... I somewhere still have a photo I took of a juice stand beside the road which sold young coconuts and SAP courses...

3) My points on Indian IT jobs being at risk due to digitalization is not exactly some biased fringe view... you'll find tons of articles on the same.
I think this type of job will also be at risk, sooner than you expect.

Anyhow, only those companies that value engineers more than the marketing and what not staff, will survive.
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