Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 23.03.2013, 12:17
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
Read my post, ETOPS rating does not get you to your destination. Just down...
the ETOPS procedure means that you even in the unlikely case of an emergency get "down" securely and then ahead to your destination. To say it again, the system in the past 20 years has proven a success. The twin-engined long-haul flights are now engines-wise more secure than the Comet-4, Boeing 707, DC-8 and VC-10 flights of the 1960ies and 70ies. In the 60ies and 70ies came the 3 engined HS Trident, Boeing 727, Tu-154, Lockheed TriStar and DC-10/MD-11 but those in the meantime got mostly replaced by twin-engined planes.

Long gone are airplanes like the 8-engined Boeing B-52

Dornier Do-X




Bristol Brabazon

the Maxim Gorki

or the Tu-95

and the civil Tu-114
316 of 1022



Last edited by Wollishofener; 23.03.2013 at 14:25.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 23.03.2013, 13:01
litespeed's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dietikon ZH
Posts: 1,854
Groaned at 15 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,398 Times in 730 Posts
litespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

B-52s (B-52H) are still in service, but not really relevant to the discussion as most it's the passengers weigh 500lb and tend to leave the aircraft half-way through the flight.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 23.03.2013, 14:17
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
B-52s (B-52H) are still in service, but not really relevant to the discussion as most it's the passengers weigh 500lb and tend to leave the aircraft half-way through the flight.
Correct, the B52 is the exception of the ones portrayed above. Relevant however in so far as Boeing when developing the Boeing 707 also had 6-engined and 8-engined variants in their planning but finally opted for only 4 engines. Relevant was not so much the danger of engine-failures but the simple fact that there was no engine existing, of which TWO would have been able to carry an airplane of that size. Stand beside a 777 and you realize that those engines are a kind of mobile power stations

Yesterday, close to SRtechnics stood the SCFA Super Constellation, just beside some A330 and A320, and you could realize how small the once impressive transatlantic airliner is if compared with those modern jetliners
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 23.03.2013, 15:12
speakeron's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 1,138
Groaned at 36 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 1,005 Times in 515 Posts
speakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
In case you aren't familiar with ETOPS, which is the certification required for long-haul, twin-engine aircraft, the 777 is rated to fly for nearly four hours on one engine, should the other fail. Which means that the engine could fail anywhere on the globe and the plane has the range to safely land.

No guarantees about translunar flights, though.
ETOPS actually applies to all commercial (part 121) operations since 2007; whether the airplanes are two, three or four-engined.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank speakeron for this useful post:
  #45  
Old 23.03.2013, 15:25
speakeron's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 1,138
Groaned at 36 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 1,005 Times in 515 Posts
speakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
...but not safer. Lose one engine and a 4 engined plane can still make the destination.Lose two engines on a 4 engined plane and you can still land. On a twin engined plan, you will be landing a lot faster than you thought if one engine failed. Lose two engines and your survival is a coin flip.
They've been shown to be just as safe so far. Don't forget: any failure which would take out two engines at the same time (fuel contamination, bird strikes, volcanic dust clouds, etc) which be just as likely to take out all four (this has happened).

In fact, two engines are probably slightly safer since the chances of a single engine failure are halved and there are some (quite rare) cases of failure (e.g. turbine or fan breakup followed by a containment failure) which could take out the other engine on the same wing or essential components (hydraulics, etc).
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank speakeron for this useful post:
  #46  
Old 23.03.2013, 19:05
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
They've been shown to be just as safe so far. Don't forget: any failure which would take out two engines at the same time (fuel contamination, bird strikes, volcanic dust clouds, etc) which be just as likely to take out all four (this has happened).

In fact, two engines are probably slightly safer since the chances of a single engine failure are halved and there are some (quite rare) cases of failure (e.g. turbine or fan breakup followed by a containment failure) which could take out the other engine on the same wing or essential components (hydraulics, etc).
Alright, let's take two aspects
A) the point is NOT that two engines are SAFER than four but that modern engines of today are so safe that it no longer is as important as in the past
B) most operational and technical problems over the past three decades in civil aviation had NOT to do with the engines but either with electrical/electronic structures or with ATC/Avionics problems or with communications between ATC and pilots

the third aspect is that ETOPS-etc exactly were launched to care for the rather rare possiblity of engine-failures
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 23.03.2013, 19:08
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
ETOPS actually applies to all commercial (part 121) operations since 2007; whether the airplanes are two, three or four-engined.
correct of course, but particularily relevant in case of twin-engined airplanes, not least psychologically as all the major longhaul-airplanes since 1945 into this millenium had FOUR pots
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 24.03.2013, 11:08
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: north
Posts: 6,145
Groaned at 226 Times in 146 Posts
Thanked 5,099 Times in 2,635 Posts
rob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
View Post
That incident was quickly hushed up but it was a very important one. Similar things have happened on at least two other occasions but the planes landed safely (emergency landings). I think one was a flight from Singapore to Europe and they had to land in Moscow.

I attribute this to quality British engineering as the engines were made by Rolls Royce. This, together with the Quantas exploding engines and cracks in A380 wings, speaks volumes about British manufacturing.
As you have zero clue of the subject matter I would suggest research before opening mouth.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank rob1 for this useful post:
This user groans at rob1 for this post:
  #49  
Old 25.03.2013, 04:58
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
As you have zero clue of the subject matter I would suggest research before opening mouth.
He possibly has done SOME research. But not enough. I mean, RollsRoyce is not the only engine-manufacturer. I would mention at least GeneralElectric-Snecma, Pratt&Whitney, Lycoming, Kuznetsov and Soloviev. And this is far from comprehensive. Interesting is to see how the usually rather jingoistic-chauvinist French (SNECMA) joined forces with General Electric USA
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 25.03.2013, 05:27
IK36's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: VD
Posts: 360
Groaned at 70 Times in 41 Posts
Thanked 297 Times in 145 Posts
IK36 has earned some respectIK36 has earned some respect
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
As you have zero clue of the subject matter I would suggest research before opening mouth.
And you do? You MUST be a Brit. How is the manufacturing sector of the economy doing?
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 25.03.2013, 05:29
IK36's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: VD
Posts: 360
Groaned at 70 Times in 41 Posts
Thanked 297 Times in 145 Posts
IK36 has earned some respectIK36 has earned some respect
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
He possibly has done SOME research. But not enough. I mean, RollsRoyce is not the only engine-manufacturer. I would mention at least GeneralElectric-Snecma, Pratt&Whitney, Lycoming, Kuznetsov and Soloviev. And this is far from comprehensive. Interesting is to see how the usually rather jingoistic-chauvinist French (SNECMA) joined forces with General Electric USA
I know that some 777 have engines from other manufacturers than RR. However the problem is specific only to those planes that had RR engines.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 25.03.2013, 05:56
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
I know that some 777 have engines from other manufacturers than RR. However the problem is specific only to those planes that had RR engines.
Well, it turned up' in the case of those planes. Whether or not it does and will affect the GE/SNECMA or P&W powerred planes is unclear.

Usually, problems on one engine-type DO affect the others as well, and the engineers overthere follow up all relevant developments
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 28.03.2013, 10:18
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: north
Posts: 6,145
Groaned at 226 Times in 146 Posts
Thanked 5,099 Times in 2,635 Posts
rob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
And you do? You MUST be a Brit. How is the manufacturing sector of the economy doing?

funnily enough i do, as for hushed up unless you have been living in a cave then i suppose it was " hushed" up.

British? how dare you, im quite offended and will now go cry in the corner.

As for why RR, thats simple my dear watson, RR has a different FCOC / FOHE to GE, both of which work perfectly at the most extreme design envelope temperatures.

However due to various unique circumstances the fuel started to wax at a transient temperature.

if was an unforseen and unencountered event that took months to discover in lab bench tests where the focus was solely on the fuel system.

To find or determine or pre empt the transient waxing would be impossible.

but anyway, best to pop over to pprune for loads of righteous indignation and self congratulatory back slapping, bit like the EF I guess......

Last edited by rob1; 28.03.2013 at 10:59.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 29.01.2016, 11:40
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 4,045
Groaned at 180 Times in 123 Posts
Thanked 11,560 Times in 3,148 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

And the first Swiss 777 landed in ZRH this morning from PAE (Boeing's factory in Seattle).

HB-JNA flight number LX7771 was escorted by a couple of Swiss AF Hornets and toured the Matterhorn area near Zermatt before performing an overshoot of runway 16 at ZRH before being welcomed for a full stop landing.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank Assassin for this useful post:
  #55  
Old 29.01.2016, 11:46
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,891
Groaned at 29 Times in 25 Posts
Thanked 4,574 Times in 2,079 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

When do the Bombardier planes come in?
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 29.01.2016, 12:06
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 4,045
Groaned at 180 Times in 123 Posts
Thanked 11,560 Times in 3,148 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
When do the Bombardier planes come in?
Second quarter of 2016 bud. The CS100 received formal airworthiness certification December 18, 2015.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Assassin for this useful post:
  #57  
Old 29.01.2016, 12:14
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 10,737
Groaned at 360 Times in 294 Posts
Thanked 19,403 Times in 7,402 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Still no news on the 797 then.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 30.01.2016, 18:16
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Baselland
Posts: 171
Groaned at 12 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 240 Times in 92 Posts
stupot is considered knowledgeablestupot is considered knowledgeablestupot is considered knowledgeable
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
ETOPS actually applies to all commercial (part 121) operations since 2007; whether the airplanes are two, three or four-engined.
Sorry, ETOPS stands for Extended Twin Engine Operations and is only for two engined aircraft - the clue is in the name. It is a whole range of regulations covering maintenance, operations, crew etc. and is determined by how many hours away from a landing point the aircraft is when flying overseas. The newest aircraft are up to 300 minutes which means if the aircraft loses one engine it must be able to reach a safe landing area within 300 minutes. As for the engines, they have to be tested to prove reliable over many thousands of hours without failure, which opens the question of how the 787 has already got a very high ETOPS approval.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 30.01.2016, 20:00
speakeron's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 1,138
Groaned at 36 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 1,005 Times in 515 Posts
speakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

Quote:
View Post
Sorry, ETOPS stands for Extended Twin Engine Operations and is only for two engined aircraft - the clue is in the name. It is a whole range of regulations covering maintenance, operations, crew etc. and is determined by how many hours away from a landing point the aircraft is when flying overseas. The newest aircraft are up to 300 minutes which means if the aircraft loses one engine it must be able to reach a safe landing area within 300 minutes. As for the engines, they have to be tested to prove reliable over many thousands of hours without failure, which opens the question of how the 787 has already got a very high ETOPS approval.
You're wrong, but I won't spank you since you're just a young 'un.

Read this:

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat.../info07004.pdf

Note that the changes can be characterized by the change in meaning of ETOPS to “Extended Operations” since these provisions have broadened to include aircraft with more than two engines and to include both part 121 and part 135 operations.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 30.01.2016, 20:53
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: north
Posts: 6,145
Groaned at 226 Times in 146 Posts
Thanked 5,099 Times in 2,635 Posts
rob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss orders Boeing 777s

To be picky the correct reference would be EASA and not FAA.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
777, airline, boeing, flying, swiss




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Swiss court orders retrial of Nigerian dictator's son The Local Swiss news via The Local 0 21.09.2011 10:50
Swiss court orders UEFA to reinstate Sion The Local Swiss news via The Local 3 13.09.2011 19:16
Boeing 777 fly-by at Paine Field Shorrick Mk2 General off-topic 13 26.02.2008 11:24
Swiss Law and Stalking/Restraining Orders jemma Other/general 37 05.10.2007 12:33
PS3 Pre-orders cyrus TV/internet/telephone 7 14.02.2007 18:19


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0