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Old 17.05.2013, 09:08
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SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

In 1950, with WW2 in everyone's mind and a nuclear cold war building up, did the pretty new united nations agree that a couple of human rights should be undisputable and universal - no dictator or regime should be able to claim that they have the law on their side when suppressing their people or minorities. The idea was clear: Countries would voluntarily give up a piece of their freedom in exchange for the minimum standards of human rights all countries should accept and each person should be able to claim at an international court.

The SVP has repeatedly entered some grey area with their ideas (for example banning minarets: Banning tall buildings is in itself completely ok, but if you just ban them because they happen to be a religious building of a religion you do not like are you not exactly helping the freedom of faith...). They also tend to not agree on the human right of asylum and seem to get annoyed that some of their initiatives are simply rejected based on the international agreements they'd break.

Now they are apparently trying to go one step further and make the Swiss government cancel it's membership in the human rights convention. They will of course rephrase that: They want the constitution to be changed and state that national law will always stand over international agreements. The SVP does not agree that the international agreement should break national law. In other words - the Swiss should be free to vote away human rights at the ballot as they wish. That of course defies the entire idea of the human rights convention, so CH would have to drop out of it as a logical consequence.

As Toni Brunner put it: "It cannot be the case that public votes are cancelled based on some universal international laws".

This is not as populistic as the discussions on minarets or criminal foreigners, but I actually think this thought is the potentially most dangerous one of them all.

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...recht-25327753
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Old 17.05.2013, 09:26
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

At least it is more honest than continuing to propose initiatives that violate the human right convention...
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Old 17.05.2013, 09:34
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

It's a good idea. The UK are in limbo too about scrapping it. Or, at least re-terming it. It is far too often exploited or relied upon to screw over the greater good.
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Old 17.05.2013, 09:40
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

They'll get my vote on this one!

Tom
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Old 17.05.2013, 09:45
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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As Toni Brunner put it: "It cannot be the case that public votes are cancelled based on some universal international laws".
He has a point here.
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Old 17.05.2013, 09:51
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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[...] greater good.
Where do I know this phrase from...?
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Old 17.05.2013, 09:51
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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It's a good idea. The UK are in limbo too about scrapping it. Or, at least re-terming it. It is far too often exploited or relied upon to screw over the greater good.
I think the general public in the UK are starting to be more vocal in questioning the amount of exploitation that is going on, which is giving the politician something to think about.

Of course we only see the 'big cases' through the media but these are becoming more and more frequent now.
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Old 17.05.2013, 09:52
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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Where do I know this phrase from...?

Ich habe keine ahnung...
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Old 17.05.2013, 10:08
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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In 1950, with WW2 in everyone's mind and a nuclear cold war building up,
The world has moved on since 1950, these international agreements need to be changed to reflect that
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Old 17.05.2013, 10:21
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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It's a good idea. The UK are in limbo too about scrapping it. Or, at least re-terming it. It is far too often exploited or relied upon to screw over the greater good.
Are the European court of human rights and the UN human rights convention the same thing?

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The world has moved on since 1950, these international agreements need to be changed to reflect that
The world might've but humans have not. There are still genocides going on, the Human rights convention was written to, amongst other things, ensure that millions of people can not be de-humanised and then terminated more easily. It's easier to kill someone you think of as less than you, less than human.
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Old 17.05.2013, 10:34
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

Yes lets remove all this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights

makes sense

must be one of the worst, stupid and evil suggestion from SVP in their pathetic history...

hopefully now people will see their true brown color...

But I guess the facist people will be happy...
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Old 17.05.2013, 10:35
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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Are the European court of human rights and the UN human rights convention the same thing?


The world might've but humans have not. There are still genocides going on, the Human rights convention was written to, amongst other things, ensure that millions of people can not be de-humanised and then terminated more easily. It's easier to kill someone you think of as less than you, less than human.
I see two major problems as a result
- people could not fight any unfair trail sentence further than the Supreme Court or Constitutional Court (or oh no, all trials in the developed world are fair)
- will give precedence to other countries to do the same move with disastrous consequences
In the end we all lose.

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But I guess the facist people will be happy...
They call themselves pragmatics nowadays. They have details chosen as facts to back up every nonsensical theory.
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Old 17.05.2013, 10:38
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

The rights need to be reviewed, not removed.

There is far too much exploitation. Lawyers these days are very very smart and find loop holes that should simply not be there.

An overhaul is what is required.
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Old 17.05.2013, 10:46
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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The rights need to be reviewed, not removed.

There is far too much exploitation. Lawyers these days are very very smart and find loop holes that should simply not be there.

An overhaul is what is required.
There will always be exploitations - no system in the world will tackle this and yes the rights needs to be reviewed.

But what the Brownshirt Brunner suggest is that Switzerland can decide themselves whether to torture somebody or not (Like US) which of course is not the way to go...
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Old 17.05.2013, 11:05
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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There will always be exploitations - no system in the world will tackle this and yes the rights needs to be reviewed.

But what the Brownshirt Brunner suggest is that Switzerland can decide themselves whether to torture somebody or not (Like US) which of course is not the way to go...
The SVP does not want to introduce torture in Switzerland
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Old 17.05.2013, 11:16
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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There will always be exploitations - no system in the world will tackle this and yes the rights needs to be reviewed.

But what the Brownshirt Brunner suggest is that Switzerland can decide themselves whether to torture somebody or not (Like US) which of course is not the way to go...
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Old 17.05.2013, 11:36
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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The rights need to be reviewed, not removed.

There is far too much exploitation. Lawyers these days are very very smart and find loop holes that should simply not be there.

An overhaul is what is required.
If that is the goal then it could be accomplished in a simpler way - i.e. re-vewing the procedures and laws re. granting asylum or admitting refugees, I am sure that could be done without having to terminate the human rights convention - which will involve far more important issues than asylum and refugees.
Lawyers have always been smart and there are simply no perfect laws, that is not an argument. Unless they will soon be seen as an unproductive layer of society and therefore their profession would be terminated, they will find new loopholes in every law.
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Old 17.05.2013, 12:03
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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The rights need to be reviewed, not removed.

There is far too much exploitation. Lawyers these days are very very smart and find loop holes that should simply not be there.

An overhaul is what is required.
Could you tell us exactly what is "far too much exploitation"? 2 cases, 4 cases, 10 cases?

I agree that there is some exploitation but I do not see the justification to remove the formal human rights protection for the whole Swiss nation (now 7 million or more?) just because of a few publicised unfair cases. Do you supporters of the SVP really want to take this risk?
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Old 17.05.2013, 12:13
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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The rights need to be reviewed, not removed.

There is far too much exploitation. Lawyers these days are very very smart and find loop holes that should simply not be there.

An overhaul is what is required.
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Could you tell us exactly what is "far too much exploitation"? 2 cases, 4 cases, 10 cases?

I agree that there is some exploitation but I do not see the justification to remove the formal human rights protection for the whole Swiss nation (now 7 million or more?) just because of a few publicised unfair cases. Do you supporters of the SVP really want to take this risk?
I never mentioned removal

As for cases I was referring to the UK and if you have a look in any of the major media outlets you will see there have been several 'high profile' cases over the past 6 months that have attracted lots of media attention for 'loop holes' and exploration of the Human Rights Act.
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Old 17.05.2013, 12:18
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Re: SVP wants Switzerland to terminate the human rights convention...

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I am more wondering if you get it... human rights are not "just refugees". We are talking about things like
- Right to life
- Freedom from torture
- Freedom from slavery
- Right to a fair trial
- Freedom of speech
- Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
and many more.

The trick with international conventions is that they only work if all take part. If the UK as a security council member would leave is the entire thing not worth the paper it is written on. It is the only time in history that humans agreed in principle what is right and wrong. Nobody claims that the convention is perfect or that all countries are following it - the world simply is far from perfect. But for me is this one of the few true achievements of the UN - most of the stuff they did in the past 60 years was a giant waste of money, but making everyone agree to that basic principle has probably saved more lives than all those people here banging on the refugees think.

It's a shame that nobody seems to value it...
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