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  #41  
Old 23.05.2016, 15:32
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Re: basic income initiative

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YES!

Tom
You're voting yes? Is this a first?
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  #42  
Old 23.05.2016, 15:33
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Re: basic income initiative

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Every great idea has flaws. In order to make it work I suggest to change the proposal a little. First let's split the group into three parts:
- freeloaders
- supporters of freeloaders
- non-supporter of freeloaders.

Everyone can choose his/her group. To keep everyone happy the freeloaders will only be financed by their supporters, no obligations for non-supporters. The supporters will be taxed until the freeloaders are happy with their allowance. After all, it's optional and for sure a lot of people will choose to pay more than what they pay today. To make the system stable the supporters will sign a 20 years contracts. Life contracts can be considered, too.

As simple as that. "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". Inside freeloader/supporter group.
If you have any bright ideas how we sustain the population in a world with far less jobs available and hopefully with all the pointless 'bullsh*t jobs' eradicated, do please offer some suggestion as it's an issue most economists, academics and the political economic system generally has been unable to answer (UBI being the easiest, quickest and probably cheapest stop-gap solution for the short to medium term).
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  #43  
Old 23.05.2016, 15:37
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Re: basic income initiative

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If you have any bright ideas how we sustain the population in a world with far less jobs available and hopefully with all the pointless 'bullsh*t jobs' eradicated, do please offer some suggestion as it's an issue most economists, academics and the political economic system generally has been unable to answer (UBI being the easiest, quickest and probably cheapest stop-gap solution for the short to medium term).
have poverty eradicate the numbers without a job. it's the time-tested method. that or send them out to war.
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  #44  
Old 23.05.2016, 15:43
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Re: basic income initiative

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You're voting yes? Is this a first?
No, we voted yes on the Masseinwanderung thing as well!

Tom
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  #45  
Old 24.05.2016, 15:46
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Re: basic income initiative

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http://binews.org/2013/01/switzerlan...me-initiative/

[/I]




there's now over 110'000 signatures....

I'd be curious to see how far this will go....
I don't know how far this will go, but this story made the front page of Bing, so it's starting to get some attention outside Switzerland.
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  #46  
Old 25.05.2016, 12:31
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Re: basic income initiative

There's not a chance in hell I will say yes to this ridiculous idea and I'm pretty confident 55-60% of the voters will agree with me

The majority of those who will say yes will probably do so because they think they get 2500.- on top of what they earn now (sorry Tom, you probably don't assume that). At least that's what I've read across every forum so far. And they don't get it even if you explain for the umpteenth time that no one will get anything on top of their salary save for a very small number of people who are below that threshold (ironically these are the very same people that are attacked elsewhere for some reason or other).

Every other type of social insurance and assistance would disappear. Gone would be all child and family allowances. Gone would be the days of 70%/80% unemployment money. And on EF of all places, where many people think everything below 120k is essentially absolute poverty, I find it highly amusing anyone would assume 2500/month is "enough". I'd want to see a lot of people try, not just here, anywhere.

Well maybe this all makes sense if you have 4 kids, but any single person or even most small families would be screwed if they found themselves unemployed. I certainly would - I'm not married and have no kids, with that measly 2500 I could pay rent, health insurance and two weeks of groceries (maybe three if I'm lucky). Well thanks for nothing.

Not to mention that they don't even know how to finance the whole thing. Sure, that's a minor issue on the side, isn't it, why bother

I also love how many people claim "yes, BUT only to xyz or under condition abc". In case anyone wondered: there's a reason it's called "bedingungslos" and "für die ganze Bevölkerung". There are zero conditions whatsoever. Either everyone who happens to be in CH (legally I'm assuming, but who knows) gets the money or no one.

I love direct democracy, but seriously, sometimes I wonder how crap like this even makes it to the ballot in the first place.

Tom, don't groan

#rantover

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  #47  
Old 25.05.2016, 13:49
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Re: basic income initiative

I was of the understanding that this basic income could potentially work out cheaper than having to administrate social security.

Everybody would get it automatically, with those who earn enough not to need it effectively paying it back through higher taxes, via a sliding scale, or hopefully being able to opt out if they so choose to avoid becoming a bank for the government.

This may well mean that more is paid out to people than currently, but without having to administer the whole social security shebang the overall costs could be significantly less.

Unemployment pay outs through the RAV would be unaffected as you pay insurance for that. Other benefits such as child allowance would also likely remain.

While I'm sure there will be freeloaders, the actual basic income would be very much a scrape by existence, so I'm convinced there won't be mass resignations.

Even if this was to generate significant savings there are unfortunately too many people who find the idea of people getting money for nothing so totally and utterly abhorrent that they can't see past the red mist of abhorrence to be able to think logically and realise that this could be very beneficial for everybody.

That said, I have to admit I can't see the numbers balancing on this, but then again I don't have the figures to hand.
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  #48  
Old 25.05.2016, 14:07
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Re: basic income initiative

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Unemployment pay outs through the RAV would be unaffected as you pay insurance for that.
I tried to find a conclusive answer on esp. the point re ALV cause I read the initiative differently than you. If I misunderstood, I retract the statement above on this specific point, though not on anything else
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  #49  
Old 25.05.2016, 14:18
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Re: basic income initiative

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I tried to find a conclusive answer on esp. the point re ALV cause I read the initiative differently than you. If I misunderstood, I retract the statement above on this specific point, though not on anything else
I don't think there really is anything conclusive as to how it would be implemented should it pass (which I also think is unlikely)
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  #50  
Old 25.05.2016, 14:48
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Re: basic income initiative

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I was of the understanding that this basic income could potentially work out cheaper than having to administrate social security.
Likely the opposite. Just think, how can a benefit which only a small number of people receive cost more than something that the entire population of Switzerland receives?

Even if you completely scrap means-testing and needs-testing (which means disabled people etc. who currently need and get more will get only the basic 2'500) you probably need as much resource just to defend against the large number of fraud attempts on the system, not to mention the cost of the fraud itself.
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  #51  
Old 25.05.2016, 14:50
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Re: basic income initiative

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I don't think there really is anything conclusive as to how it would be implemented
And there's the problem then
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Old 03.06.2016, 14:34
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Re: basic income initiative

The whole idea of the basic income is kinda funny. I gave it a thought for quite a while and i don't that it could work.30K is Switzerland is basically poverty line, so if someone wants to live in poverty well done to them, but in my opinion people are much better of when they're working and not just from financial perspective.
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  #53  
Old 03.06.2016, 14:48
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Re: basic income initiative

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There are four people in Switzerland.
A is out of work and entirely dependent on the state.
B earns 60K
C earns 120K
D earns 1M.
Apparently I am no 5.
E = out of work but looking for it & not entitled to benefit as I haven't worked for many years (which I don't dispute although it would be nice to be given some sort of existence status at some point), entirely dependent on OH who graciously allows me pocket money once a week at the same time as he gives the kids theirs.

And even then I still think it's a stupid idea to give a basic income to one & all.
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  #54  
Old 04.06.2016, 09:21
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Re: basic income initiative

Voting on this tomorrow, http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36443512
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  #55  
Old 05.06.2016, 15:01
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Re: basic income initiative

Almost 80% no so far... I was waaay off with my 60% estimate then...
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  #56  
Old 05.06.2016, 15:58
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Re: basic income initiative

Let's stop dreaming on for a moment ... Let's go back to work ...

Switzerland 'rejects basic income', poll projections suggest
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36454060
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  #57  
Old 05.06.2016, 17:39
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Re: basic income initiative

Good to see the Swiss putting these leftist, parasitic ideas to rest once and for all. It's dead in Switzerland and pretty much everywhere else in the world now, if the richest nation in the world won't do it no bother anyone else trying.

kkthxbb
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  #58  
Old 05.06.2016, 18:03
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Re: basic income initiative

Had it been voted in, it would have at least cleared out the Jungle in Calais as they'd all be streaming down in this direction, paddling through the floods in France.
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  #59  
Old 05.06.2016, 23:08
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Re: basic income initiative

Hi all,

I think that we have to make a step back and think why the "basic income initiative".

From my point of view, we have not been told yet what is coming to society in the next decades:

1.- technology is improving to such level that many manual work is done more and more by robots.
2.- studies and developments related to artificial intelligence are getting better and better
3.- 3D printing is allowing to do amazing things. This is the beginning: Construction, Biotechnology, etc, etc

I would recommend to read the book Zero-Marginal-Cost-Society

Under such environment, I am sure that the technology improvements will create new jobs, but I think that the job offer will be much much higher than the demand, therefore most part of the society will be unemployed or working part time.

Now, taking into consideration that information, I don't need to think or ask myself if the basic income initiative will be accepted or not by the swiss-citizens. The question is "when" (not "if") it will be accepted
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Old 05.06.2016, 23:12
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Re: basic income initiative

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The question is "when" (not "if") it will be accepted
Keep dreaming.
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