English Forum Switzerland

English Forum Switzerland (https://www.englishforum.ch/forum.php)
-   Swiss politics/news (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/)
-   -   Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/188038-bitcoin-paper-presented-swiss-parliament.html)

milesaway 19.09.2013 09:31

Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Reddit post today about a paper that was presented in the Swiss parliament last week:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comm...late_bitcoins/

I am not very familiar with procedure in the Swiss parliament. The précis looks a lot less hyperbolic than the Reddit headline though; am I correct in my reading that this is just a consultation paper?

Murloc 20.09.2013 16:17

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
the guy just asked the government to produce a report about it.
The result will probably be that it's a non-problem and no action is necessary.
I mean, if it was serious, the parliament would have done more about it.
I don't know if the whole chamber has to accept it to transmit it to the gov or not though.

Lammhaxe 25.09.2013 14:03

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Wow, if today we can do speculations even though money is still attached to something, tomorrow with BitCoin it is going to be slavery :msngrin:

Max Biaggi 26.09.2013 16:55

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Money is slavery?

Lammhaxe 26.09.2013 17:10

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Yep, simple:

Suppose you work 1 month
You make 100 bucks, you get paid in paper.
Today the convention that everyone seems to forget is that paper is equivalent to a certain extent to gold (thoereticaöly, and i will not go into detail of how everything is crumbeling today), this is why it has value.

So lets say this 100 piece of paper equals one bar of gold
Tomorrow the value of this piece of paper is halved, so you can only exchange it to 0.5 bar of gold.

Technically for the same amount of work, you have half less.

So technically you were an unpaid human, thus a slave.

Sbrinz 26.09.2013 18:23

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
On the thread to Bitcoin linked above, I liked the comment,

The country whose banks are famous for hiding money from governments is thinking about banning an alternative to their banks. -- Shocking.

Fridge 26.09.2013 18:29

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PikScrum (Post 1984077)
Yep, simple:

Suppose you work 1 month
You make 100 bucks, you get paid in paper.
Today the convention that everyone seems to forget is that paper is equivalent to a certain extent to gold (thoereticaöly, and i will not go into detail of how everything is crumbeling today), this is why it has value.

So lets say this 100 piece of paper equals one bar of gold
Tomorrow the value of this piece of paper is halved, so you can only exchange it to 0.5 bar of gold.

Technically for the same amount of work, you have half less.

So technically you were an unpaid human, thus a slave.

And why is the bar of gold any less of an arbitrary value than the paper or the digital representations?

Lammhaxe 27.09.2013 09:30

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fridge (Post 1984150)
And why is the bar of gold any less of an arbitrary value than the paper or the digital representations?

Valid question. To answer simply (and not to go into details, which we can do but over a pint probably):

Gold is rare enough, and shiny (in term of metal), but not so rare, that it cannot be used as a counterparty for a transaction.
So in the old days, it was easier to find Ore to make metal than to make gold. rarity made gold the backup counterparty where everyone agreed (out of greed) that it is rare thus valuable.

Diamonds, rubies etc... are rare also rare, but not as malleable as gold. You cannot melt them and stick the face and ass of a king on them. So this is why historically gold was a standard and for historical reasons it continued to be.

Hope this helps

11HoursInTheTinPan 27.09.2013 10:00

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PikScrum (Post 1984077)
Yep, simple:

Suppose you work 1 month
You make 100 bucks, you get paid in paper.
Today the convention that everyone seems to forget is that paper is equivalent to a certain extent to gold (thoereticaöly, and i will not go into detail of how everything is crumbeling today), this is why it has value.

So lets say this 100 piece of paper equals one bar of gold
Tomorrow the value of this piece of paper is halved, so you can only exchange it to 0.5 bar of gold.

Technically for the same amount of work, you have half less.

So technically you were an unpaid human, thus a slave.

This paper is also equivalent to a certain extent of rice. The convention (I guess you mean the gold standard or Bretton Woods?) you are referring to does not exist any more.

Jack of all trades. 27.09.2013 10:02

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
However rare gold may be, along with precious stones, and the argument connected with this is to a degree fair enough there is no substitute for something which is valuable and a necessity.

And that is farming land. Productive farming land.

The other is something which Switzerland holds in high regard. Intellectual property. Money will not buy a place in the top school, only ability.

There will come a time when gold and precious stones will no longer have the same percieved value that it enjoys today. However I don't see that happening with farming land or it's future equivalents.

Who knows? Perhaps there may be a use for gold in the future other than ornamental that will make it a necessity.

amogles 27.09.2013 10:13

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack of all trades. (Post 1984438)
Who knows? Perhaps there may be a use for gold in the future other than ornamental that will make it a necessity.

There already is. Lots of gold is used in the electronics industry for example.

And in fact because it cannot be fully recovered by recycling, gold is being lost that way.

In fact there are already people studying ways of mining gold out of old landfills.

Lammhaxe 27.09.2013 10:59

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 11HoursInTheTinPan (Post 1984437)
This paper is also equivalent to a certain extent of rice. The convention (I guess you mean the gold standard or Bretton Woods?) you are referring to does not exist any more.

Thank you for mentioning the rice equivalent, which is really important. But I was not referring to the Gold Standard because it was relevant only with Dollar and it actually was created because of what gold represented before.

Why is gold more important than rice in my opinion:
Of course we cannot eat gold, and rice is much healthy. But how much rice can we eat?
With gold I can exchange it with different products, like meat, vegetables, manufactured products. How much rice can I exchange to get a nice piece of Kobe meat? With gold, it's much more practical, because if I don't like meat I can get something else.

To give more insight also, you might want to check in the recent news where Germany has asked of the US Federal Reserve to give back the gold (and it can't do it...)irrelevant the reasons, it shows how people are actually in need of Tangible things, and bitcoin is not one of them.

11HoursInTheTinPan 27.09.2013 11:39

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PikScrum (Post 1984497)
With gold I can exchange it with different products, like meat, vegetables, manufactured products.

In which shops in Switzerland were you able to pay groceries with gold?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PikScrum (Post 1984497)
How much rice can I exchange to get a nice piece of Kobe meat? With gold, it's much more practical, because if I don't like meat I can get something else.

Only if somebody is willing and allowed to give you fiat money for your gold. With that you can then go and get your groceries. If somebody is willing to buy your rice, it has the same function.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PikScrum (Post 1984497)
To give more insight also, you might want to check in the recent news where Germany has asked of the US Federal Reserve to give back the gold (and it can't do it...)

That's because they have gold as reserve and they don't trust the US that it is still there. If rice was storable for a long time and in the Federal Reserve, they would have required them to ship it back as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PikScrum (Post 1984497)
irrelevant the reasons, it shows how people are actually in need of Tangible things, and bitcoin is not one of them.

I am not a bitcoin believer, but neither a gold bug.

Lammhaxe 27.09.2013 12:34

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
All valid points!
But everyone can be challenged especially the shops and about the gold reserve.

In order not to make it more complicated, I would like to know if you prefer to have 1 bag of rice in your hand, or 1 gold bar which has the same value as the bag of rice, everything else equal in your life.

fatmanfilms 27.09.2013 12:42

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PikScrum (Post 1984077)
Yep, simple:

Suppose you work 1 month
You make 100 bucks, you get paid in paper.
Today the convention that everyone seems to forget is that paper is equivalent to a certain extent to gold (thoereticaöly, and i will not go into detail of how everything is crumbeling today), this is why it has value.

So lets say this 100 piece of paper equals one bar of gold
Tomorrow the value of this piece of paper is halved, so you can only exchange it to 0.5 bar of gold.

Technically for the same amount of work, you have half less.

So technically you were an unpaid human, thus a slave.

Of course your bit of paper buys almost 50% more gold than it did 18 months ago ! :D

fatmanfilms 27.09.2013 12:43

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PikScrum (Post 1984630)
All valid points!
But everyone can be challenged especially the shops and about the gold reserve.

In order not to make it more complicated, I would like to know if you prefer to have 1 bag of rice in your hand, or 1 gold bar which has the same value as the bag of rice, everything else equal in your life.

The rice will hold its value more reliably than hold, it also can be eaten if your hungry ,

11HoursInTheTinPan 27.09.2013 13:08

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PikScrum (Post 1984630)
All valid points!
But everyone can be challenged especially the shops and about the gold reserve.

In order not to make it more complicated, I would like to know if you prefer to have 1 bag of rice in your hand, or 1 gold bar which has the same value as the bag of rice, everything else equal in your life.

From an investment point of view or from a shopping point of view? From a shopping point of view, I will take the fiat money.

amogles 27.09.2013 13:12

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 11HoursInTheTinPan (Post 1984557)
In which shops in Switzerland were you able to pay groceries with gold?

Seeing most of the currency was gold backed until not too long ago, CHF connected to gold.

Phil_MCR 27.09.2013 13:12

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PikScrum (Post 1984630)
All valid points!
But everyone can be challenged especially the shops and about the gold reserve.

In order not to make it more complicated, I would like to know if you prefer to have 1 bag of rice in your hand, or 1 gold bar which has the same value as the bag of rice, everything else equal in your life.

the rice. i could eat it.

in fact, i guess many of us will have actually bought rice at some point in our lives. maybe in the last year or weeks.

very few of us will have actually bought physical gold.

rice vs gold:

- arguably equally good stores of value
- rice is more easily divisible
- rice is more easily exchangeable
- rice is more easily identifiable/verifiable
- rice is more easily purchased
- rice has intrinsic value as food
- rice is a better medium of exchange

Lammhaxe 27.09.2013 14:26

Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 1984656)
the rice. i could eat it.

in fact, i guess many of us will have actually bought rice at some point in our lives. maybe in the last year or weeks.

very few of us will have actually bought physical gold.

rice vs gold:

- arguably equally good stores of value
- rice is more easily divisible
- rice is more easily exchangeable
- rice is more easily identifiable/verifiable
- rice is more easily purchased
- rice is more easily exchangeable
- rice has intrinsic value as food
- rice is a better medium of exchange

I don't eat rice :), so I think gold will be better for me to choose among a larger selection, plus it is not preishable.


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:14.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0