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Old 19.09.2013, 10:31
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Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

Reddit post today about a paper that was presented in the Swiss parliament last week:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comm...late_bitcoins/

I am not very familiar with procedure in the Swiss parliament. The précis looks a lot less hyperbolic than the Reddit headline though; am I correct in my reading that this is just a consultation paper?
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Old 20.09.2013, 17:17
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

the guy just asked the government to produce a report about it.
The result will probably be that it's a non-problem and no action is necessary.
I mean, if it was serious, the parliament would have done more about it.
I don't know if the whole chamber has to accept it to transmit it to the gov or not though.
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Old 28.09.2013, 05:13
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

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the guy just asked the government to produce a report about it.
The result will probably be that it's a non-problem and no action is necessary.
I mean, if it was serious, the parliament would have done more about it.
I don't know if the whole chamber has to accept it to transmit it to the gov or not though.
No, the government has already been given the job of investigating bitcoins and their impact on the "real" economy, and if bitcoins are being used to fund criminal activity. The question now is: How long will the Federal Council take to investigate?
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Old 28.09.2013, 15:08
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

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No, the government has already been given the job of investigating bitcoins and their impact on the "real" economy, and if bitcoins are being used to fund criminal activity. The question now is: How long will the Federal Council take to investigate?
Crikey. Didn't realise I was tossing such a grenade in starting this thread

The answer to this question is, undoubtably. You only have to pay a visit to Silk Road to know that.

But then, you could equally ask if Swiss Francs are being used to fund criminal activity. And no-one, to my knowledge, is wondering whether we should ban those.

Karl Denninger, of the Market Ticker blog, points out a few reasons why using BTC for criminal activities such as buying drugs or laundering loot might not be such a great idea.

Not least this one:

Quote:
Now consider the typical clandestine transaction -- Joe wishes to buy a bag of pot, which happens to be illegal to transact. He has Bitcoins to buy the pot with. He finds a dealer willing to sell the pot despite it being illegal to do so, and transfers the coins to the dealer. The dealer must verify the block chain of the coins to insure that he is not being given coins that were already spent on gasoline or that Joe didn't counterfeit them, and then he transfers the pot to Joe. There is now an indelible and permanent record of the transfer of funds and that record will never go away.
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Old 28.09.2013, 15:16
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

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Karl Denninger, of the Market Ticker blog, points out a few reasons why using BTC for criminal activities such as buying drugs or laundering loot might not be such a great idea.
In general, that's true but the transactions are essentially anonymous - they're tied to a cryptographic key with no identifiable user information. The only way to track somebody through the block chain would be to identify them at the point at which they exchanged fiat for bitcoins. Certainly in the early days there was somewhat of a wild-west feel and it was trivial to exchange into bitcoins anonymously.

And here really lies the second wave of bitcoin trading. Exchanges now all have to confirm with AML and KYC regulations and so bitcoin now takes on the sheen of something that hedge funds get interested in. The drug thing will really get less and less relevant.
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Old 03.10.2013, 12:44
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

I think this is a very interesting arcticle that might enlighten people about Bitcoin Frauds and not necessarily that Bitcoin is all bad

http://qz.com/131084/silk-road-colle...million-exist/
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Old 03.10.2013, 22:11
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

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I think this is a very interesting arcticle that might enlighten people about Bitcoin Frauds and not necessarily that Bitcoin is all bad

http://qz.com/131084/silk-road-colle...million-exist/
The arrest yesterday of the mastermind behind Silk Road has certainly caused some shockwaves in the bitcoin community. The price immediately plunged from about $145 to $109 but has since firmed-up to $130. (Typical market undershoot on bad news and plenty of profits to be made if you had any fiat in the exchanges).

Interestingly, "Dread Pirate Roberts" wasn't caught by a room of boffins who cracked decryption keys or hyper-analysed the bitcoin block chain, but by old-fashioned detective work - he was pretty stupid when he setup Silk Road in 2011 and posted on some forums under his real name. These posts were then linked to subsequent posts. Anyway, if the indictment is correct, he was a total scumbag who had paid for at least two people to be murdered.

It'll be interesting to see what kind of effect this has on bitcoin; it doesn't seem to be suffering too much at the moment since (I think anyway) it has momentum beyond Silk Road.
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Old 04.10.2013, 15:05
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

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The arrest yesterday of the mastermind behind Silk Road has certainly caused some shockwaves in the bitcoin community. The price immediately plunged from about $145 to $109 but has since firmed-up to $130. (Typical market undershoot on bad news and plenty of profits to be made if you had any fiat in the exchanges).
Undershoot?!
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Old 04.10.2013, 20:20
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

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The arrest yesterday of the mastermind behind Silk Road has certainly caused some shockwaves in the bitcoin community. The price immediately plunged from about $145 to $109 but has since firmed-up to $130. (Typical market undershoot on bad news and plenty of profits to be made if you had any fiat in the exchanges).

Interestingly, "Dread Pirate Roberts" wasn't caught by a room of boffins who cracked decryption keys or hyper-analysed the bitcoin block chain, but by old-fashioned detective work - he was pretty stupid when he setup Silk Road in 2011 and posted on some forums under his real name. These posts were then linked to subsequent posts. Anyway, if the indictment is correct, he was a total scumbag who had paid for at least two people to be murdered.

It'll be interesting to see what kind of effect this has on bitcoin; it doesn't seem to be suffering too much at the moment since (I think anyway) it has momentum beyond Silk Road.
Allegedly...
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Old 04.10.2013, 11:06
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

very interesting
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Old 04.10.2013, 14:58
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

Slightly off topic, just found out that the General Manager of reddit is a Swiss dual-citizen.

Recently was topping the list of Times most influential people of 2012

http://venturebeat.com/2012/03/30/re...t-influential/

So which EFer is he? :P
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Old 25.09.2013, 15:03
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

Wow, if today we can do speculations even though money is still attached to something, tomorrow with BitCoin it is going to be slavery
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Old 26.09.2013, 17:55
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

Money is slavery?
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Old 26.09.2013, 18:10
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

Yep, simple:

Suppose you work 1 month
You make 100 bucks, you get paid in paper.
Today the convention that everyone seems to forget is that paper is equivalent to a certain extent to gold (thoereticaöly, and i will not go into detail of how everything is crumbeling today), this is why it has value.

So lets say this 100 piece of paper equals one bar of gold
Tomorrow the value of this piece of paper is halved, so you can only exchange it to 0.5 bar of gold.

Technically for the same amount of work, you have half less.

So technically you were an unpaid human, thus a slave.
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Old 26.09.2013, 19:23
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

On the thread to Bitcoin linked above, I liked the comment,

The country whose banks are famous for hiding money from governments is thinking about banning an alternative to their banks. -- Shocking.
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Old 26.09.2013, 19:29
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

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Yep, simple:

Suppose you work 1 month
You make 100 bucks, you get paid in paper.
Today the convention that everyone seems to forget is that paper is equivalent to a certain extent to gold (thoereticaöly, and i will not go into detail of how everything is crumbeling today), this is why it has value.

So lets say this 100 piece of paper equals one bar of gold
Tomorrow the value of this piece of paper is halved, so you can only exchange it to 0.5 bar of gold.

Technically for the same amount of work, you have half less.

So technically you were an unpaid human, thus a slave.
And why is the bar of gold any less of an arbitrary value than the paper or the digital representations?
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Old 27.09.2013, 10:30
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

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And why is the bar of gold any less of an arbitrary value than the paper or the digital representations?
Valid question. To answer simply (and not to go into details, which we can do but over a pint probably):

Gold is rare enough, and shiny (in term of metal), but not so rare, that it cannot be used as a counterparty for a transaction.
So in the old days, it was easier to find Ore to make metal than to make gold. rarity made gold the backup counterparty where everyone agreed (out of greed) that it is rare thus valuable.

Diamonds, rubies etc... are rare also rare, but not as malleable as gold. You cannot melt them and stick the face and ass of a king on them. So this is why historically gold was a standard and for historical reasons it continued to be.

Hope this helps
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Old 27.09.2013, 11:00
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

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Yep, simple:

Suppose you work 1 month
You make 100 bucks, you get paid in paper.
Today the convention that everyone seems to forget is that paper is equivalent to a certain extent to gold (thoereticaöly, and i will not go into detail of how everything is crumbeling today), this is why it has value.

So lets say this 100 piece of paper equals one bar of gold
Tomorrow the value of this piece of paper is halved, so you can only exchange it to 0.5 bar of gold.

Technically for the same amount of work, you have half less.

So technically you were an unpaid human, thus a slave.
This paper is also equivalent to a certain extent of rice. The convention (I guess you mean the gold standard or Bretton Woods?) you are referring to does not exist any more.
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Old 27.09.2013, 11:59
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

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This paper is also equivalent to a certain extent of rice. The convention (I guess you mean the gold standard or Bretton Woods?) you are referring to does not exist any more.
Thank you for mentioning the rice equivalent, which is really important. But I was not referring to the Gold Standard because it was relevant only with Dollar and it actually was created because of what gold represented before.

Why is gold more important than rice in my opinion:
Of course we cannot eat gold, and rice is much healthy. But how much rice can we eat?
With gold I can exchange it with different products, like meat, vegetables, manufactured products. How much rice can I exchange to get a nice piece of Kobe meat? With gold, it's much more practical, because if I don't like meat I can get something else.

To give more insight also, you might want to check in the recent news where Germany has asked of the US Federal Reserve to give back the gold (and it can't do it...)irrelevant the reasons, it shows how people are actually in need of Tangible things, and bitcoin is not one of them.
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Old 27.09.2013, 13:42
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Re: Bitcoin paper presented to Swiss parliament

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Yep, simple:

Suppose you work 1 month
You make 100 bucks, you get paid in paper.
Today the convention that everyone seems to forget is that paper is equivalent to a certain extent to gold (thoereticaöly, and i will not go into detail of how everything is crumbeling today), this is why it has value.

So lets say this 100 piece of paper equals one bar of gold
Tomorrow the value of this piece of paper is halved, so you can only exchange it to 0.5 bar of gold.

Technically for the same amount of work, you have half less.

So technically you were an unpaid human, thus a slave.
Of course your bit of paper buys almost 50% more gold than it did 18 months ago !
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