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Old 27.02.2008, 17:39
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why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

What makes the Swiss put up with ridiculously high prices for everything from milk to haircuts, shy away from bargaining for used cars, put up with nosey neighbors and noise-Nazis, and meekly accept a system under which billionaires can cut sweet deals with the taxman while they pay full rates?

Today, after riding down their shares from CHF 80 all the way down to CHF 35, what would make UBS shareholders turn down special audit ???

When are these people going to loose their temper?

p.s. I don't own any UBS stock, so don't bother with the patronizing responses...
  #2  
Old 27.02.2008, 17:42
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

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and meekly accept a system under which billionaires can cut sweet deals with the taxman while they pay full rates?
Well they can accept that system and enjoy a lower tax rate. Or they can move to have it revoked for morals sake, and subsequently cough up the eventual cash shortfall.
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Old 27.02.2008, 17:49
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

so much for the concept of blue chip stocks.
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Old 27.02.2008, 20:32
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

They accept it because they realize that they benefit from it. When you have a small Gemeinde it doesn't take much thinking to realize that you're better of having a rich guy with a deal in your Gemeinde than no rich guy.

Same goes for the high prices. You pay a lot but the quality is generally also better. There are no free lunches and that the Swiss realize better than any other I would say.
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Old 27.02.2008, 20:54
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

because France is an awful place to live.
  #6  
Old 27.02.2008, 20:59
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

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What makes the Swiss put up with ridiculously high prices for everything from milk to haircuts...
Because the alternative is to move to a poorer country to earn lower wages..
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Old 28.02.2008, 00:28
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

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What makes the Swiss put up with ridiculously high prices for everything from milk to haircuts, shy away from bargaining for used cars, put up with nosey neighbors and noise-Nazis, and meekly accept a system under which billionaires can cut sweet deals with the taxman while they pay full rates?
You're better off earning lots of money and paying high prices than earning not a lot of money and paying high-ish prices (inflation is pretty serious in GB and Ireland anyway). With a high salary, there's room to economise. Not so if you earn peanuts.


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Today, after riding down their shares from CHF 80 all the way down to CHF 35, what would make UBS shareholders turn down special audit ???

When are these people going to loose their temper?

p.s. I don't own any UBS stock, so don't bother with the patronizing responses...
Probably for the same reason that no-one wants to test their asset backed securities on the open market
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Old 28.02.2008, 09:45
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

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...

When are these people going to loose their temper?

...
Oh, it's really simple. Just tell them that Switzerland is not the greatest country in the world, and you will soon find out how the Swiss can loose their temper.

(don't ask me how I know)

  #9  
Old 02.03.2008, 15:51
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

So, what is it you expect the shareholders to do?

I don't know how much you understand of swiss corporate law, but consider that if they had not diluted their share value by recapitalizing through new investors, they would have had to PUT MONEY IN!!!

Yep, welcome to a country that takes banking seriously.

Switzerland has very advanced regulatory law. I would say they lead the world in regulation of finance, even if they do not tend to go on and on about it. I say that having read what I can stomach of the SEC legislation, UK corporate law and Australian colonial madness.

The swiss law says that banks must keep a certain percentage of their share capital paid up. That is, if they lose assets (bad loans) and their asset value drops below a given percentage of the money they say they have to lend to the world (in jargon: if the fractional lending ratio blows out)......

....? Then what happens is that the existing shareholders have to reach into their own pockets and replenish the asset value and restore the fractional lending ratio.

Or, they can wind up the company. Shut it down. Sell it off. Schluss, kaput, ende. FAIL.

This sort of accountability is only found in Switzerland. The rest of the world runs on a sort of wild west style of corporate regulation, where companies can basically run on empty and even into massive debt before they come crashing down.

So, I think it is interesting that the shareholders accepted the new investors rather than force a showdown. For one thing, it was the plan of the existing board. They must be the most hated folks in banking just now. I can;t see it being easy for the shareholders to follow their lead anymore. So I reason they must have had no choice.

In other words, there must have been too many shareholders who were not willing, or not able, to recapitalize out of their own pockets. That is kind of interesting, if you think about it for a while. It confirms my view that big companies and banks are like old men who are so fat they cannot get themselves out of bed anymore.

I figure that if special interest groups can alter the laws and taxes of a land to allow these big fat men of business to survive at the expense of smaller companies, the long term interest is questionable.

maybe it would have been better if UBS had closed down?

Since when did switzerland rely on big companies and banks, anyway? I think law and policy should favour the small and the nimble, or a least give them an equal chance. Socially, morally i mean, it is preferable. Folks in small organizations don't feel so small themselves.

Unfortunately our modern politica world has evolved to the point where common folks pay taxes that get sideline by "special interest" and then paid out to ultra large corporations who then get fat and lazy, because they do not have work hard to make a profit anymore.

Then the inevitable happens: the large mega company becomes so insanely managed that it manages to lose huge amounts of money, and then the taxpayer is once again asked to give something up for the sake of the investors of this big, sick, fat man of business.

I say let them die. Pull the plug. Turn off the life support.

Shit, I will even hold the pillow over the face if someone else grabs the arms and legs to quell the death struggle.

I am hoping Obama can make good on some of these leadership issues in the US, but he ain't there yet.
  #10  
Old 02.03.2008, 16:06
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

hmm... there are so many errors in your logic, i don't even know where to begin... let me just take on a few

a) every semi-respectable banking jurisdiction has capital adequacy ratios and these are enforced. the US and UK, or even India - they may calculate the risk capital differently, and the % equity required may be different, but everyone uses much the same system. there is no other way to ensure solvency of banks...

b) the shareholders would have preferred a rights issue - which is the only logical thing to do. with whats happening now, the existing shareholders get diluted, and they have to contend with a large new shareholder who is reluctant to whip the directors into performing their jobs. a rights issue would mean that existing shareholders (to who all existing directors and managers owe their jobs) will retain their % equity holding in the company. if they want to, they can add more capital. if they dont, they can sell their 'rights' for a profit. in either case, they get to decide, since they own the bank.

I'm too lazy to correct all the other erroneous stuff ...
i'll let other people pitch in and convince you that you're wrong
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Old 02.03.2008, 16:44
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

Although my logic may disappoint, I hope you will take some solace in my efforts to employ correct syntax, thus rendering the grave flaws in my reasoning legible to anyone who can read.

Perhaps the courtesy might be returned. I don't mean to sound bitchy, but folks who demand logic and neglect clarity are, as you note, intellectually lazy.

Anyone can fly the flag of logic. So what? Logic is a method of argument, nothing more. Only in the physical sciences does logic allow a correct understanding of events. In all other fields we play with other methods to describe what we see, most often emotionally driven prose.

In the final analyses, logic is redundant when speculating on matters that are largely unknowable or cloaked in mystery. We are limited humans, and we have to surmise, and guess at the truth of the world.

I say we ought to confront that fact, and dispense with the fake authority of "logic". You want logic without prose to act adjudicator of the various premises available? Here you go:

Premis 1: My dog is an animal.

Premis 2: My cat is an animal.

Valid logical conclusion: Therefore my dog is a cat.

Only when terms are strictly defined and understood can logic be used to clarify the real world. I put it to you that corporate regulation is so very far from being contructed with a coherent lexicon that the exercise of corporate regulatory power in the common law world is entirely a matter of political prose, and not of logic.

What logic is there in "regulating" markets, anyway?

It is animal behaviour, inherently political, and ultimately decided by those who write prose, not those who crunch empirically neutral numbers.

By the way, I am not aware that the voters had individual options to either dilute their shareholding or recapitalize. I doubt you can be correct, because corporate decisions are most often voted on and then applied to everyone. It is very rare for shareholders to get an individual choice. How then could the new investor know how much of the bank he is buying?

But I am no expert on the facts of this matter. I am just making wild guesses, based on the way of changes in the world.
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Old 06.03.2008, 11:13
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

Now I understand:

Premis 1: A Swiss citizen is a person.
Premis 2: I am a person

Valid logical conclusion: Therefore I am a Swiss citizen

I love it :-)
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Old 06.03.2008, 11:17
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

Wasn't that a logical argument about Cretins ?

dave


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Now I understand:

Premis 1: A Swiss citizen is a person.
Premis 2: I am a person

Valid logical conclusion: Therefore I am a Swiss citizen

I love it :-)
  #14  
Old 06.03.2008, 11:22
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

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Now I understand:

Premis 1: A Swiss citizen is a person.
Premis 2: I am a person

Valid logical conclusion: Therefore I am a Swiss citizen

I love it :-)
I think you should get yourself down the Kreisburo at once, this is fantastic news.

Cynik, thanks for this wonderful Jedi mindtrick, I shall use it forthwith.
  #15  
Old 06.03.2008, 11:28
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

Your logic is flawed, and I don't see much merit is your discussion of logic either. I started dealing with your points, but realised they are not at all focused so I leave it to people with more time.

Validity of logic/clarity/authority/corporate behaviour/politics/regulation ?

dave


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Although my logic may disappoint, I hope you will take some solace in my efforts to employ correct syntax, thus rendering the grave flaws in my reasoning legible to anyone who can read.

Perhaps the courtesy might be returned. I don't mean to sound bitchy, but folks who demand logic and neglect clarity are, as you note, intellectually lazy.

Anyone can fly the flag of logic. So what? Logic is a method of argument, nothing more. Only in the physical sciences does logic allow a correct understanding of events. In all other fields we play with other methods to describe what we see, most often emotionally driven prose.

In the final analyses, logic is redundant when speculating on matters that are largely unknowable or cloaked in mystery. We are limited humans, and we have to surmise, and guess at the truth of the world.

I say we ought to confront that fact, and dispense with the fake authority of "logic". You want logic without prose to act adjudicator of the various premises available? Here you go:

Premis 1: My dog is an animal.

Premis 2: My cat is an animal.

Valid logical conclusion: Therefore my dog is a cat.

Only when terms are strictly defined and understood can logic be used to clarify the real world. I put it to you that corporate regulation is so very far from being contructed with a coherent lexicon that the exercise of corporate regulatory power in the common law world is entirely a matter of political prose, and not of logic.

What logic is there in "regulating" markets, anyway?

It is animal behaviour, inherently political, and ultimately decided by those who write prose, not those who crunch empirically neutral numbers.

By the way, I am not aware that the voters had individual options to either dilute their shareholding or recapitalize. I doubt you can be correct, because corporate decisions are most often voted on and then applied to everyone. It is very rare for shareholders to get an individual choice. How then could the new investor know how much of the bank he is buying?

But I am no expert on the facts of this matter. I am just making wild guesses, based on the way of changes in the world.
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Old 06.03.2008, 11:40
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

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Your logic is flawed, and I don't see much merit is your discussion of logic either.
I came up with something similar:

Premis 1: Your logic is flawed
Premis 2: Flawed logic is bollocks

Valid logical conclusion: Therefore you are speaking bollocks
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Old 02.12.2012, 22:11
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

Lol!!!!!! good question
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Old 02.12.2012, 22:33
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

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What makes the Swiss put up with ridiculously high prices for everything from milk to haircuts, shy away from bargaining for used cars, put up with nosey neighbors and noise-Nazis, and meekly accept a system under which billionaires can cut sweet deals with the taxman while they pay full rates?

Today, after riding down their shares from CHF 80 all the way down to CHF 35, what would make UBS shareholders turn down special audit ???

When are these people going to loose their temper?

p.s. I don't own any UBS stock, so don't bother with the patronizing responses...
1. The vote looked close or at least closish.
2. How much would a special audit cost? and who`s picking the auditors? It has got to be in the millions and what would it uncover that an external audit has not already discovered? It obviously would have the advantage of hindsight in regards to valuations of certain assets.

As a $70m division we paid $80k a year in audit fees. We used a local firm (cheaper than the big 4) who knew our processes every year but that 80k didn't include all the time we had to put into providing answers and documents to the auditors.

Maybe one reason.
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Old 02.12.2012, 22:42
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Re: why are the Swiss such #*&^ wusses?

This thread was started in 2008. Almost 5 years ago.
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