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  #181  
Old 24.02.2014, 21:16
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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According to the Rector of the University of Bern "Dazu muss man festhalten: In den letzten Jahren erhielt die Schweiz rund 50 Prozent mehr Geld aus der EU, als sie selber beigetragen hat"

Rough translation " In recent years, Switzerland has received about 50 percent more money from the EU, than it has itself contributed "

I assume the Rector is a credible source?

Link is here.

Would you like to share the link to your "Swiss political blog"?
Thanks I'll look into it.

I am still looking where I read that previous stuff I mentioned ... I have been reading stuff in dozens of sites ... so not sure I can track that down ... it have even been a comment and not even part of the article ...
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  #182  
Old 24.02.2014, 21:29
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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If by "biased" you mean biased towards facts, I would agree.
Sadly not, you cannot bias towrds facts - you either quote facts or they are not facts, examples;
I quote " the French Cantons saw strong support for the initiative ranging from 38.9% to 48.5% in favor."
Perhaps you would also care to write the German Cantons saw strong support for the anti-initiative ranging from 40% to 60% against?

and " the difference between Swiss in Switzerland and foreigners in Switzerland, with the result being that Swiss in Switzerland are to be given priority to employment opportunities over foreigners."
Both Brunner and Blocher have talked about "Inlanders" who would be given the same priority as Swiss.

and "- Threats
Following the vote the EU leaders spared no time in letting Switzerland know that they were not pleased with the outcome. Threats were made most of all against Switzerland’s economy."
There were no threats; if you think there were then please give proper references.
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  #183  
Old 24.02.2014, 21:30
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Thanks I'll look into it.

I am still looking where I read that previous stuff I mentioned ... I have been reading stuff in dozens of sites ... so not sure I can track that down ... it have even been a comment and not even part of the article ...
Ah ha! I see.
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  #184  
Old 24.02.2014, 21:34
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I quote " the French Cantons saw strong support for the initiative ranging from 38.9% to 48.5% in favor."
Perhaps you would also care to write the German Cantons saw strong support for the anti-initiative ranging from 40% to 60% against?
Good point - I'll do that!


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and " the difference between Swiss in Switzerland and foreigners in Switzerland, with the result being that Swiss in Switzerland are to be given priority to employment opportunities over foreigners."
Both Brunner and Blocher have talked about "Inlanders" who would be given the same priority as Swiss.
Yes, but I am talking about the initiative and what it calls for -which is that Swiss be given priority to employment opportunities.

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and "- Threats
Following the vote the EU leaders spared no time in letting Switzerland know that they were not pleased with the outcome. Threats were made most of all against Switzerland’s economy."
There were no threats; if you think there were then please give proper references.
I will dig those out ... or I will revise the text ...

Thanks for your feedback!
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  #185  
Old 24.02.2014, 21:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Good point - I'll do that!




Yes, but I am talking about the initiative and what it calls for -which is that Swiss be given priority to employment opportunities.


I will dig those out ... or I will revise the text ...

Thanks for your feedback!
About "Yes, but I am talking about the initiative and what it calls for -which is that Swiss be given priority to employment opportunities."

The discussion, so far as I understand, is the initiative was about preference for Schweizerinnen und Schweizer and what exactly does that mean? The terms "Schweizerinnen und Schweizer" were not defined; so who did they mean by "Swiss" - does it include foreigners who live here and have work and resident permits? - the SVP say yes that is what they meant.

It would have been clearer if they had written, for example, "Schweizer Bürger und Bürgerinnen" which translates as Swiss citizens. As you know the process for becoming a Swiss citizen is called "die Einbürgerung".

It is about such wording that lawyers make comfortable livings.

Which all cycles back to the point about "did people fully understand what they were voting for?
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  #186  
Old 24.02.2014, 22:44
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Bullshit. The EU is perfectly fine with a country joining or leaving. What the EU and most pro-Europeans are not fine with are people who try to have their cake and eat it.
You cannot have a one-way freedom of movement: You cannot expect to get the right to move wherever you want in the EU yourself but limit the number of EU folks in your country. You also cannot expect to get free access to the market for your goods but blocking imports. The EU is simply about free movement. You can want it or leave it. But the half arsed positions of CH (and some others like the UK) are just going on the nerves of the people who actually value the EU for what it is.


Before Switzerland joined Schengen have I personally witnessed how an older Swiss guy went completely batshit in the German embassy in Bern when his Thai girlfriend's visa application was rejected. No shopping in Konstanz for those two... If the Swiss want to go back to those days am I fine with it - I just don't agree that it is ok to limit it only in one direction... and for once do the EU bureaucrats seem to slowly get their shit together and will gradually show the Swiss how many benefits the EU has brought them they take for granted and never actually think about. That's nothing undemocratic at all. A vote should have these logical consequences, otherwise is it pointless.
Can you please tell UKIP? Thanks.
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  #187  
Old 24.02.2014, 22:56
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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So to conclude Switzerland wants an affair not a marriage. Just the good bits and no mother in law to put up with.
Are you trying to describe Barroso?
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  #188  
Old 24.02.2014, 23:02
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The contents on the web site are heavily biased so the post fits well in this thread.

Ah, ok.
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  #189  
Old 24.02.2014, 23:20
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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A) Switzerland did NOT decide to change the status, only to change a specific point
B) Swtizerland is content for the time being that scientific research and students exchange can continue as before
C) the interests of both the EU and of Switzerland are best served by a good co-operation
What part of "Freedom of movement is a fundamental right in the EU and it is the foundation of everything else" is not clear? It must have been repeated thousands of times now.

The vote denies a fundamental right. It is like a guy one day loses the right to speak in public or to use the public services because he does not have the passport. No difference whatsoever.

No offence: Switzerland has no bargaining power. The common market belongs to the EU and Switzerland is not self-sufficient.

Fitting 20 feet containers on a Grippen to trade with China or US is not feasible, just to mention this argument again.

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D) Sure, but a majority in the Bundesrat is against terminating any treaty. And the initivative does not demand terminating any treaty but to amend one of them a bit
For the 1 millionth time, the EU has to play its strategy in its interests it will not do what your politics want. That is democracy as well, and you represent only a small part of the continent.
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  #190  
Old 24.02.2014, 23:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Dont worry its wolli he talks crap and pulls random meaningless wierd statements all the time. Most people have him on ignore anyway, I do and only saw his reply because it was quoted.

Last edited by rob1; 24.02.2014 at 23:49.
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  #191  
Old 24.02.2014, 23:48
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Dont worry its wolli he talks crap and pulls random meaningless wierd statements all the time. Most people have him on ignore anyway.
I tend to accept realities

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You know, I thought the announcement on H2020 etc. by the EU were a bit premature and petty.

However, it seems to have got the academics squealing and adding pressure to the Swiss side, so maybe it was a smart move by the EU after all...
I do not know Mr Barroso but have the impression that he knows Switzerland quite well and is doing Swiss politics. Let s not forget that we are not speaking about just a EU bureaucrat but about a former and widely successful prime minister of Portugal.

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Wrong. This wasnt a case of the EU talking but not doing.

The EU did stop talks with Switzerland.

And the only reason this was done first, was because this was the first thing that was up for negotiation between the EU and Switzerland that is directly affected.

Anti-FMOP parties may well make gains, but few countries, if any, will vote to leave the EU completely. Thus, the anti-FMOP parties will make gains, but it will always be overtaken by the economic interests of the country itself which in all cases, lie with the EU.
No, it did NOT. Talks on various levels go on and on. You may have seen Didier Burkhalter in Berlin. This IS talks. There are lots of talks going on. And there recently were talks in Wien between Ministers of both countries, and Austria is a full member of the EU
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  #192  
Old 24.02.2014, 23:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Most people have him on ignore anyway
On the contrary: quite a few of the more established members rather enjoy his contributions, bizarre anecdotes, obscure historical facts and all.

EF would be a much poorer place without him.
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  #193  
Old 25.02.2014, 00:05
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Apologies in advance if I get a bit EU Law technical.

Even the TFEU imposes some limits on freedom of movement within the EU for both EU citizens, residents and their families especially if family members are from third countries. There isn't harmony on how same sex (partnership/married) couples are treated for example, and exceptions included are national security, member state economic interests, public health/order etc.

As a non-member state CH can't change EU law, and can only re-negotiate it's bilaterals, which is what the Referendum was allegedly about.

For EU members to renegotiate the Treaties they either have to negotiate an opt-out, leave the Union, or through a referendum force a renegotiation (as Ireland did with Lisbon). This is also the argument behind the UK Referendum purported for 2017 by the Conservatives for example.

As a non-member, CH can't leave, but can ask for one of the other two options which it has done. Remember Greenland left the EU in 1986 as part of Denmark having joined in 1973 with Ireland and UK.

In a sense what CH has done is no different to Ireland's Protocol, or the recent UK Finance opt-outs last year, which were options for members. Not joining Schengen or the Euro are other examples for members (like the UK for both, UK, Sweden Denmark, Hungary for the Euro, Ireland for Schengen only etc.).

Conversely CH has been accepted into Schengen and could feasibly sign a Euro acquis as it has it's own central bank, which is a key requirement (as is becoming obvious in the Scottish independence debate, and in Montenegro).

So where is the controversy? Not accepting Croatia (HR) for FMOP isn't specific to HR as far as CH is concerned. In fact CH is being honest and consistent.

My interpretation is that CH is saying, "Sorry EU, our electorate in the same way Ireland's didn't initially like the original EU Constitution, don't like unlimited FMOP for any new country the EU likes to admit without our consent.

"Therefore feel free to keep adding countries as you like within the EU, but as there are 28 now, versus 18 when we signed up in 2002, can we renegotiate please? In the meantime we're not keen on adding any more but are happy to come to the table.

"We'll be happy to keep up with the other agreements in the meantime, and have provided three years for us all to thrash something out together.

"In reality we're no worse than the UK planning a potential bye-bye referendum in 2017....and remember we're not being misleading and pretending to be a full member state. And remember you've allowed the UK to opt out of some items agreed at the last intergovernmental conference.

"Oh and for democratic credibility, allegedly an EU fundamental freedom, we've asked all our 26 cantons. Don't lecture to us until you've had a referendum in the 26 EU countries that don't require referenda on EU law/Treaty changes by law. (The two being Ireland since 1986 (Crotty v. An Taoiseach) and the UK since European Union Act 2011).

(TFEU is the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union which came into force post Lisbon in 2009, and forms the basis of current EU law for member states and EEA signatories, and to the extent of its bilaterals, Switzerland).
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  #194  
Old 25.02.2014, 00:06
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

I was counting the seconds for that... ef is so predictable. we are in 2 different camps then so each to thier own I guess.
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  #195  
Old 25.02.2014, 00:15
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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.....


No, it did NOT. Talks on various levels go on and on. You may have seen Didier Burkhalter in Berlin. This IS talks. There are lots of talks going on. And there recently were talks in Wien between Ministers of both countries, and Austria is a full member of the EU
Indeed, at a minimum "talks about talks", these people are politicians remember..... Admitting to talks being the start of purportive renegotiations is may be another matter however......
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  #196  
Old 25.02.2014, 00:52
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Indeed, at a minimum "talks about talks", these people are politicians remember..... Admitting to talks being the start of purportive renegotiations is may be another matter however......
The EU does not talk with parties of member counties or partner countries. And outcomes of popular votes are not subject to EU decisions. The EU leadership now expects of Switzerland clear definitions of what they want to talk about. First of all, the two chambers of the Swiss parliament have to work out a law or at least law proposals and THEN the federal government has to hand proposals to the EU. The law proposal can even become subject to another public vote
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Old 25.02.2014, 00:53
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I was counting the seconds for that... ef is so predictable. we are in 2 different camps then so each to thier own I guess.
2 csmps ? You are in the Blocher camp then ?
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  #198  
Old 25.02.2014, 10:22
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

I really don't get what all the fuss is about - Switzerland did nothing illegal ...

Repercussions ... !? Nothing really major - some funds relating to Horizon 2020 and Erasmus were frozen, as was the electricity project .. but this is most likely all temporary measures, with the main aim being to make the EU seem like it's showing it's teeth ... We'll survive.
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Old 25.02.2014, 12:33
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I really don't get what all the fuss is about - Switzerland did nothing illegal ...

Repercussions ... !? Nothing really major - some funds relating to Horizon 2020 and Erasmus were frozen, as was the electricity project .. but this is most likely all temporary measures, with the main aim being to make the EU seem like it's showing it's teeth ... We'll survive.
There is a huge difference between surviving and "doing well"!
Voters here did not realise they were voting about "survival"!
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  #200  
Old 25.02.2014, 12:38
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There is a huge difference between surviving and "doing well"!
Voters here did not realise they were voting about "survival"!
It IS about doing well, but with uncountable problems caused by voters who voted out of emotions
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