Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #321  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:33
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 12,378
Groaned at 265 Times in 173 Posts
Thanked 14,701 Times in 6,226 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
See bottom of page: http://swisspsi.ch/?page_id=24
Nice plug for your website but I was asking about the process for the change in the constitution itself. Has it already changed? If so, on what date? What is the triggering act? Is there a specific procedure?
Reply With Quote
  #322  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:35
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Please read the official EU news bulletin - it's postponed!
What exactly does "POSTPONED" mean ?? Two weeks ? If more than 3 weeks, it is DEAD ... so please clarify
Reply With Quote
  #323  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:35
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Nice plug for your website but I was asking about the process for the change in the constitution itself. Has it already changed? If so, on what date? What is the triggering act? Is there a specific procedure?

At the bottom of the page are links to the Federal Government's FAQ on the matter. The first of which seems to elude to the Constitution already having been amended.
Reply With Quote
  #324  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:37
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
What exactly does "POSTPONED" mean ?? Two weeks ? If more than 3 weeks, it is DEAD ... so please clarify

No it is not "dead" - Erasmus+ is limited for the year 2014/15 and Horizon 2020 is limited for the year 2014. This is what "postponed" meant.
Reply With Quote
  #325  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:39
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Thats exactly it; the immigrants would pay for the pensions of the retired swiss. Without them, where does the pension pot fill from? There arent enough swiss to fill it at the same rate it is emptying.

Thats the fallacy of the whole vote.
Even the initiative allows MORE immigrants, reality even will increase the rate
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #326  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:43
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
No it is not "dead" - Erasmus+ is limited for the year 2014/15 and Horizon 2020 is limited for the year 2014. This is what "postponed" meant.
according to my calendar we ARE in the year 2014, which means that BOTH things are TOTALLY DEAD. And this is a deed of those EU leaders.

CH universities HAVE TO look elsewhere as they WILL do

"Postponed" apparently is a new word for "getting killed"
Reply With Quote
  #327  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:44
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 933
Groaned at 225 Times in 158 Posts
Thanked 1,958 Times in 893 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
I never said that the EU has more to loose than Switzerland - I said that "I disagree with your overall attitude that the EU has nothing to loose". The EU have something to loose - that's my point!

The reason the EU has "not done more so far" is because Switzerland has not broken any agreements.

And Lichtenstein, which also has FMOP, has permanent quotas for all EEA members - so how is it "not compatible"!?

The question i would ask myself if i was you, is that are you absolutely sure, 100%, that the EU will not make a couple of small sacrifiec to prevent these sorts of actions spreading? Im not.

Switzerland hasnt broken agreements yet, but it has proclaimed it will.

Lichtenstein is considered a microstate which, administratively, is very different to Switzerland. The rules are very different too, and i would remember that Lichtenstein gives far more to the EU then it gets back, something which doesnt apply to Switzerland.

I would add that when Lichtenstein agreed the changes to its immigration policy, it did so proactively with the EU, and didnt cancel any agreements. It did, in essence, respect the EU enough to make the changes the way they were supposed to. Even still, concessions were made, including making it much easier for residents to gain citizenship.

Last edited by J2488; 27.02.2014 at 14:00.
Reply With Quote
  #328  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:50
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
according to my calendar we ARE in the year 2014, which means that BOTH things are TOTALLY DEAD. And this is a deed of those EU leaders.

CH universities HAVE TO look elsewhere as they WILL do

"Postponed" apparently is a new word for "getting killed"
Are you suggesting that Erasmus+ is not continuing in 2016, and that Horizon 2020 is not continuing past the end of 2014?
I think you know what postponed means
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #329  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:52
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
The question i would ask myself if i was you, is that are you absolutely sure, 100%, that the EU will not make a couple of small sacrifiec to prevent these sorts of actions spreading? Im not.

Switzerland hasnt broken agreements yet, but it has proclaimed it will.

Lichtenstein is considered a microstate which, administratively, is very different to Switzerland. The rules are very different too, and i would remember that Lichtenstein gives far more to the EU then it gets back, something which doesnt apply to Switzerland.
You love your spin don't you!

Look, you can wail and whine all you like... I am not freaking out and I am happy to give it time and see how things go.. Ok!?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #330  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:58
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,583
Groaned at 249 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 11,609 Times in 6,342 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
No it is not "dead" - Erasmus+ is limited for the year 2014/15 and Horizon 2020 is limited for the year 2014. This is what "postponed" meant.
According to the EU press releasehere will be no EU grant money for Erasmus in 2014; for me this means Erasmus is dead for us for 2014. We can participate as a third country which means more tax money and no guarantee that we get the number of places and locations that were expected

Quote:
View Post
I never said that the EU has more to loose than Switzerland - I said that "I disagree with your overall attitude that the EU has nothing to loose". The EU have something to loose - that's my point!

The reason the EU has "not done more so far" is because Switzerland has not broken any agreements.

And Lichtenstein, which also has FMOP, has permanent quotas for all EEA members - so how is it "not compatible"!?
About "permanent quotas for all EEA members"; what is the relevance of this? We are discussing FMOP for the EU.
Switzerland already has quotas for non-EU and this is also not relevant for the FMOP discussion.

About the Croatia decision, the EU press release says "Following this constitutional change, the Swiss Federal Council has informed us that it is still evaluating whether it is in a position to sign the – already negotiated and initialled - Protocol extending the free movement of persons agreement to Croatia."
So according to the EU the Swiss have not yet decided to refuse Croatia and the Croatia agreement is both already negotiated and initialled.
Reply With Quote
  #331  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:58
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 933
Groaned at 225 Times in 158 Posts
Thanked 1,958 Times in 893 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
You love your spin don't you!

Look, you can wail and whine all you like... I am not freaking out and I am happy to give it time and see how things go.. Ok!?

Lol, no spin. Just cold, hard, facts. You can either accept them, or you can not. The choice is yours.
Reply With Quote
  #332  
Old 27.02.2014, 14:01
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Lol, no spin. Just cold, hard, facts. You can either accept them, or you can not. The choice is yours.
Ha. Nice try mate!
Reply With Quote
  #333  
Old 27.02.2014, 14:09
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
According to the EU press releasehere will be no EU grant money for Erasmus in 2014; for me this means Erasmus is dead for us for 2014. We can participate as a third country which means more tax money and no guarantee that we get the number of places and locations that were expected
Correct. For the year/years mentioned by the EU the Erasmus+ and Horizon 2020 programs are downgraded for Switzerland. (Or "dead" as you say)

Quote:
About "permanent quotas for all EEA members"; what is the relevance of this? We are discussing FMOP for the EU.
Switzerland already has quotas for non-EU and this is also not relevant for the FMOP discussion.
The relavence is there. Reread the post I was replying to!

Quote:
About the Croatia decision, the EU press release says "Following this constitutional change, the Swiss Federal Council has informed us that it is still evaluating whether it is in a position to sign the – already negotiated and initialled - Protocol extending the free movement of persons agreement to Croatia."
So according to the EU the Swiss have not yet decided to refuse Croatia and the Croatia agreement is both already negotiated and initialled.
What's the date on that? And if this is still the case that's great... By me anyhow ... That there is a clear stance from Switzerland that the Croats are still being thought of!
Reply With Quote
  #334  
Old 27.02.2014, 14:15
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 22,245
Groaned at 1,172 Times in 917 Posts
Thanked 25,142 Times in 12,038 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
You have changed your constitution, without the consent or agreement of the other party affected.
What other party?

Is there any country on the planet that confers with foreign entities about it's constitution?

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #335  
Old 27.02.2014, 14:17
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,583
Groaned at 249 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 11,609 Times in 6,342 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Correct. For the year/years mentioned by the EU the Erasmus+ and Horizon 2020 programs are downgraded for Switzerland. (Or "dead" as you say)



The relavence is there. Reread the post I was replying to!



What's the date on that? And if this is still the case that's great... By me anyhow ... That there is a clear stance from Switzerland that the Croats are still being thought of!
About "What's the date on that? "
There were only two EU press releases about this situation a very short one dated 9 Feb 2014 and this one which you asked about is dated 26 Feb 2014
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #336  
Old 27.02.2014, 14:34
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
About "What's the date on that? "
There were only two EU press releases about this situation a very short one dated 9 Feb 2014 and this one which you asked about is dated 26 Feb 2014
Thanks for the dates.

Here is the official statement from the Swiss Government's side:

What is the impact of the result on EU enlargement to Croatia?
The extension of the freedom of movement to Croatia was negotiated in a new protocol, which was initialled last year. The Agreement envisages the full free movement of persons with Croatia following a 10 year transitional regime. However, the new constitutional provisions exclude the conclusion of new agreements that are not compatible with the introduction of quotas for immigrants. The Federal Council is therefore not in a position to sign the agreement to extend the freedom of movement to Croatia in its current version.
The Federal Council will work closely with the EU to seek solutions to avoid discrimination against Croatia. The FDJP, together with the FDFA, will clarify whether the open questions on the extension of the freedom of movement to Croatia should form part of negotiations on the Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons, or whether they should be settled in advance.
Source
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #337  
Old 27.02.2014, 14:35
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 12,378
Groaned at 265 Times in 173 Posts
Thanked 14,701 Times in 6,226 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
The question i would ask myself if i was you, is that are you absolutely sure, 100%, that the EU will not make a couple of small sacrifiec to prevent these sorts of actions spreading? Im not.

Switzerland hasnt broken agreements yet, but it has proclaimed it will.

Lichtenstein is considered a microstate which, administratively, is very different to Switzerland. The rules are very different too, and i would remember that Lichtenstein gives far more to the EU then it gets back, something which doesnt apply to Switzerland.
I think there is also a case to be made for sectoral adaptations to be made for Switzerland. It will be a difficult issue for the EU to deal with as it risks opening the door to the UK and others to argue for more general quotas on immigration.
Reply With Quote
  #338  
Old 27.02.2014, 14:41
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 933
Groaned at 225 Times in 158 Posts
Thanked 1,958 Times in 893 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
What other party?

Is there any country on the planet that confers with foreign entities about it's constitution?

Tom

Yes, Switzerland. When they changed their constitution the first time around to allow FMOP.

One of the conditions of joining the EU, or becoming an EU associate, for every member, is the compatability of that country's constitution (or equivelent) with the EU.

Did you think the constitution was a sacred document that could only be amended by the swiss, and without any external influence?

Dave.
Reply With Quote
  #339  
Old 27.02.2014, 14:43
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 933
Groaned at 225 Times in 158 Posts
Thanked 1,958 Times in 893 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
I think there is also a case to be made for sectoral adaptations to be made for Switzerland. It will be a difficult issue for the EU to deal with as it risks opening the door to the UK and others to argue for more general quotas on immigration.
I agree, there probably will be a watered down version of the quotas, which will be accepted under a sectoral adaptation.

But the EU will still demand (and in all likelihood, get) stinging concessions, to prevent other EU countries getting ideas.

The swiss government is damned if they do, and damned if they dont.
Reply With Quote
  #340  
Old 27.02.2014, 14:59
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,583
Groaned at 249 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 11,609 Times in 6,342 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
I never said that the EU has more to loose than Switzerland - I said that "I disagree with your overall attitude that the EU has nothing to loose". The EU have something to loose - that's my point!

The reason the EU has "not done more so far" is because Switzerland has not broken any agreements.

And Lichtenstein, which also has FMOP, has permanent quotas for all EEA members - so how is it "not compatible"!?
Quote:
View Post
I agree, there probably will be a watered down version of the quotas, which will be accepted under a sectoral adaptation.

But the EU will still demand (and in all likelihood, get) stinging concessions, to prevent other EU countries getting ideas.

The swiss government is damned if they do, and damned if they dont.

It is all very Kafkaesque
We could finish up in a situation where we have quotas that bring in more immigrants than pre-initiative and to get there we had to make a lot of concessions....
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
erasmus, european union, fmop, horizon, immigration, masseneinwanderung, vote




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Immigration status of Non-EU starting a business in Switzerland alesco Business & entrepreneur 28 09.11.2015 14:26
Masseneinwanderung [Immigration] vote - Facts Slaphead Swiss politics/news 4 29.06.2014 19:59
Is there any age limits to starting a PhD? Breezy Family matters/health 15 18.11.2012 01:23
Immigration limits in the UK: what about scientists? HashBrown International affairs/politics 5 08.10.2010 00:29


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0