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  #381  
Old 27.02.2014, 23:06
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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3 months until the start of the negotiations but 3 years until the final conclusions. Where exactly the Croatia matter comes in is a bit unclear to me. But Mrs Sommaruga told here Croation counterpart that matters will be settled within 3 months. This of course may turn out to be wrong

THIS is why I above said that the universities cannot wait for politics but have to act now
Thanks for the clarification!
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  #382  
Old 27.02.2014, 23:07
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Read the documents ... I listed the source ..
No I prefer your summaries; gives me more flexibility
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  #383  
Old 27.02.2014, 23:08
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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No I prefer your summaries; gives me more flexibility

Haha ... nice!
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  #384  
Old 28.02.2014, 10:39
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Alternative answers?

Switzerlands GDP is uncharacteristically large for such a small country, so it gives more to the programs than similar sized countries. However, its research institutions are also uncharacteristically better then countries with a similar GDP. Consequently, they got more from the program.

In relation to the other larger EU countries, Switzerlands contribution is still relatively small, but its 'return on investment' is higher because of the high standard of its research institutions.

What the quotes below say, is that Switzerland was able to get 1.52x more than its contribution would have led people to expect.

As an example (not the real numbers) Switzerland may have contributed 3% of the 90billion pot (which is 2.7 billion Eur), but managed to get back 1.52x, or 4.1 billion Eur. This would be a much better return % that larger countries like the UK or Germany.

This is what we mean when we say the whole thing was skewed in Switzerlands favour.

Also, keep in mind, that report was written in 2012. In June of this year, the input and output may have been equal, but the pot was not yet empty. In fact, according to the report itself, more than 700million CHF in research grants was yet to be paid out.

EABs source is incomplete. EAB has deliberately only provided half the paragraph. This is the whole paragraph.

"Based on the data received on the cut-off date of 15 June 2012, the Confederation paid the EU a total of CHF 1.570 billion to enable Swiss researchers to take part in FP7 whereas Swiss researchers managed to secure CHF 1.559 billion in FP funding from the EU. This means that Switzerland's financial contributions to FP7 and the amount of funding secured thus far by Swiss researchers as of 15 June 2012 is about the same. As presented earlier, payments to Swiss researchers involved in FP7 projects will continue for several more years but Switzerland's financial contribution to FP7 ends in 2013. This time lag in the receipt of project funding, the above-average rate of success that Swiss researchers have had in securing funding for their project proposals and experiences from FP6 all seem to indicate that the outcome for FP7 might be a positive net financial return."

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  #385  
Old 28.02.2014, 10:43
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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EABs source is incomplete. EAB has deliberately only provided half the paragraph. This is the whole paragraph.

"Based on the data received on the cut-off date of 15 June 2012, the Confederation paid the EU a total of CHF 1.570 billion to enable Swiss researchers to take part in FP7 whereas Swiss researchers managed to secure CHF 1.559 billion in FP funding from the EU. This means that Switzerland's financial contributions to FP7 and the amount of funding secured thus far by Swiss researchers as of 15 June 2012 is about the same. As presented earlier, payments to Swiss researchers involved in FP7 projects will continue for several more years but Switzerland's financial contribution to FP7 ends in 2013. This time lag in the receipt of project funding, the above-average rate of success that Swiss researchers have had in securing funding for their project proposals and experiences from FP6 all seem to indicate that the outcome for FP7 might be a positive net financial return."

That does in no way nullify the parts that I did quote from the same source!!
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  #386  
Old 28.02.2014, 10:45
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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That does in no way nullify the parts that I did quote from the same source!!
Not completely, but it does show you're only reporting the bits that support your argument, and not the whole context, which is much less in your favour.

You should be a politician.

Incidentally, it should be a cause for concern. Swiss research institutions stand to lose at best, hundreds of millions, and at worst, billions of euros of funding. Keep in mind, FP8 is exponentially larger than FP7, so it stands to reason (according to your report) that swiss institutions were in line to get exponentially better rewards. Since the swiss government is a bit skint, im not sure that funding gap can simply be overcome with money from the government.
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  #387  
Old 28.02.2014, 11:02
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Not completely, but it does show you're only reporting the bits that support your argument, and not the whole context.

You should be a politician.
Right back at you!

The point is that as of June 2012 the numbers of expense and return were about equal - and the rest is hopeful speculation!

Yes there is a good chance that Switzerland will receive equal to, or 1% - 2% above, that which it invested - but this is still nevertheless a "chance". And even if this "chance" were to turn out to be reality, it would still not be sufficient leverage for those who would try to use it as an excuse to sell out our nations right to control our own immigration policy!

I really do think that Switzerland can survive without financial handouts of 100 or 200 million CHF, or more for that matter, from the EU ... especially when, as stated in the report, it's not like all this money actually returns to Switzerland!

So I think the notion that the EU's decision on Switzerland's change in status, in regards to Horizon 2020, is a terrible and detrimental thing just isn't legitimate - not to me anyway! Those EU fanbois are going to have to try harder than that ...

And I still have yet to see how terribly detrimental the Erasmus+ issue is as well ...

Seems like much ado about -- well not nothing ... but not as much as it's made out to be ...
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  #388  
Old 28.02.2014, 11:28
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Right back at you!

The point is that as of June 2012 the numbers of expense and return were about equal - and the rest is hopeful speculation!

Yes there is a good chance that Switzerland will receive equal to, or 1% - 2% above, that which it invested - but this is still nevertheless a "chance". And even if this "chance" were to turn out to be reality, it would still not be sufficient leverage for those who would try to use it as an excuse to sell out our nations right to control our own immigration policy!

I really do think that Switzerland can survive without financial handouts of 100 or 200 million CHF, or more for that matter, from the EU ... especially when, as stated in the report, it's not like all this money actually returns to Switzerland!

So I think the notion that the EU's decision on Switzerland's change in status, in regards to Horizon 2020, is a terrible and detrimental thing just isn't legitimate - not to me anyway! Those EU fanbois are going to have to try harder than that ...

And I still have yet to see how terribly detrimental the Erasmus+ issue is as well ...

Seems like much ado about -- well not nothing ... but not as much as it's made out to be ...
Well, except it isnt speculation at all. The contract for the outstanding 700million CHF have been signed, and they will have to be paid out as long as the recieving institution does not do anything to break the contract (hence the 'might'). As far as the EU is concerned, an agreement signed is non negotiable.

Not sure about your maths there...1.56billion + 700million = 2.26 billion. That is a healthy 44% more than invested. Quite where you got your 1-2% from is mystifying.

Also, the report did not state that the money does not return to Switzerland. It states that 1.52Fr does not reenter the country. But it does still mean that there is that 0.52Fr return on the investment.

Theres no doubt Switzerland will survive. But it will be disadvantaged. The exclusion from H2020 affects a very small minority of Switzerland. Because you are not in this minority, you dont care.
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  #389  
Old 28.02.2014, 11:31
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Theres no doubt Switzerland will survive. But it will be disadvantaged. The exclusion from H2020 affects a very small minority of Switzerland. Because you are not in this minority, you dont care.
False! I do care - just not enough to sellout a right I deem to be fundamental to an independent nation! - BIG difference!
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Old 28.02.2014, 11:31
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Right back at you!

The point is that as of June 2012 the numbers of expense and return were about equal - and the rest is hopeful speculation!

Yes there is a good chance that Switzerland will receive equal to, or 1% - 2% above, that which it invested - but this is still nevertheless a "chance". And even if this "chance" were to turn out to be reality, it would still not be sufficient leverage for those who would try to use it as an excuse to sell out our nations right to control our own immigration policy!

I really do think that Switzerland can survive without financial handouts of 100 or 200 million CHF, or more for that matter, from the EU ... especially when, as stated in the report, it's not like all this money actually returns to Switzerland!

So I think the notion that the EU's decision on Switzerland's change in status, in regards to Horizon 2020, is a terrible and detrimental thing just isn't legitimate - not to me anyway! Those EU fanbois are going to have to try harder than that ...

And I still have yet to see how terribly detrimental the Erasmus+ issue is as well ...

Seems like much ado about -- well not nothing ... but not as much as it's made out to be ...
Come on guys. On the scale of things, Erasmus money etc. is just peanuts. I'm sure Switzerland can send students abroad and fund it from a whip around in the pub.

The bigger questions are how will the CH-EU relations change, whether trade will be affected, whether there will be more pressure on tax regimes, banking secrecy etc. if it comes to a renegotiation or if relationships deteriorate.
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  #391  
Old 28.02.2014, 11:32
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Incidentally, i have an example of how this does affect Switzerland directly

We recently hired a new technologist for our Lab. She has just finished her PhD. She was hired on a salary of between 80-90,000 CHF.

She completed her PhD on an EU funded programme. The funding for her PhD came mainly from FP 7. She openly admits that without FP7, she would have struggled to finance her PhD.

Eery month over 1300 CHF of her salary goes to Switzerland in the form of tax.

No H2020 = fewer PhDs = fewer highly skilled jobs going to Swiss graduates.

The revenue to the government probably would remain the same, as an auslander would be drafted in for the job.
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Old 28.02.2014, 11:38
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Not sure about your maths there...1.56billion + 700million = 2.26 billion. That is a healthy 44% more than invested.
What was that just earlier you were saying about me being selective in what info I put out there!?
Why are you ignoring the main issue that is completely out of our scope? - the total expenditure from Switzerland into the project is not fully known as of yet ... or!?
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Also, the report did not state that the money does not return to Switzerland. It states that 1.52Fr does not reenter the country. But it does still mean that there is that 0.52Fr return on the investment.
By "return to Switzerland" I meant precisely "does not reenter the country" ... what's your point!?
What's the point of having a "return on the investment" if the "return" never actually "returns"!?
I think the report stated what it did because there is a difference - and it wanted it to be clear that this money doesn't necessarily actually go back into the Swiss economy!
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Old 28.02.2014, 12:00
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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What was that just earlier you were saying about me being selective in what info I put out there!?
Why are you ignoring the main issue that is completely out of our scope? - the total expenditure from Switzerland into the project is not fully known as of yet ... or!? (1)


By "return to Switzerland" I meant precisely "does not reenter the country" ... what's your point!?
What's the point of having a "return on the investment" if the "return" never actually "returns"!? (2)
I think the report stated what it did because there is a difference - and it wanted it to be clear that this money doesn't necessarily actually go back into the Swiss economy!
1> Neither is the income. It could quite easily exceed the 700million, since the project itself is approved, not the exact amount of funding. Nothing selective in what i said, i used the data from the source you provided.
Also, we do know that Switzerland has now stopped funding FP 7, but is still reaping the rewards from it. Your source makes this very clear.

2> This is not a commercial transaction though, so you cant say that because the extra 0.52 does not re-enter Switzerland, it does not provide any benefit to Switzerland.
To illustrate, A project led from Zurich but which uses universities throughout the EU will recieve a certain amount of funding spread throughout the EU. But, and as anyone in research will tell you, the bulk of the recognition for said project will go to Zurich. The university in Zurich will be credited with the research. This 'intellectual reward' was the big benefit to Switzerland from FP7 and FP8 - That it could get larger 'intellectual reward' as part of FP7 than it could do on its own. The actual 1.52Fr value takes into account this 'intellectual reward' which, despite not being located in Switzerland, was an asset for it.
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  #394  
Old 28.02.2014, 12:08
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1> Neither is the income. It could quite easily exceed the 700million, since the project itself is approved, not the exact amount of funding. Nothing selective in what i said, i used the data from the source you provided.
Sorry, but you said:

"Not sure about your maths there...1.56billion + 700million = 2.26 billion. That is a healthy 44% more than invested."

You made no mention of the fact that the expenditure was unknown - so, yes, you were being selective in the above statement!

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2> This is not a commercial transaction though, so you cant say that because the extra 0.52 does not re-enter Switzerland, it does not provide any benefit to Switzerland.
To illustrate, A project led from Zurich but which uses universities throughout the EU will recieve a certain amount of funding spread throughout the EU. But, and as anyone in research will tell you, the bulk of the recongition for said project will go to Zurich. The university in Zurich will be credited with the research. This 'intellectual reward' was the big benefit to Switzerland from FP7 and FP8. The actual 1.52Fr value takes into account this 'intellectual reward' which, despite not being located in Switzerland, was an asset for it.
So we sellout for "intellectual reward" - great ... this just gets better and better ...

Look, nevermind .. it's obvious that we take completely opposite outlooks on this - I tend towards looking at it positively in that one always has to pay a bit for their rights and independence and I don't share the 'gloom and doom' mindset of the pro-EU club - whereas you seem to veer over to the negative, worst-case scenario, and it seemingly doesn't take much for you to give up your rights and independence - so really at the end of the day it's a difference in priorities which leads us to a difference in outlook and perspective - and that is ok ... both perspectives are needed to counter-balance one another.
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  #395  
Old 28.02.2014, 12:18
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Just stepping in here to say thanks to EAB and J2488 for keeping it civil. This is an interesting read seeing as you have two totally opposite points of view, both with some valid points.
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Old 28.02.2014, 12:18
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

In case anyone is interested and in Bern:

Tomorrow there'll be a little event/rally at the Bundeshaus about the vote:

http://ouverte-et-solidaire.ch/

Has some 2000+ folk enrolled on facebook.
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  #397  
Old 28.02.2014, 12:22
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Sorry, but you said:

"Not sure about your maths there...1.56billion + 700million = 2.26 billion. That is a healthy 44% more than invested."

You made no mention of the fact that the expenditure was unknown - so, yes, you were being selective in the above statement! (1)



So we sellout for "intellectual reward" - great ... this just gets better and better ... (2)

Look, nevermind .. it's obvious that we take completely opposite outlooks on this - I tend towards looking at it positively in that one always has to pay a bit for their rights and independence and I don't share the 'gloom and doom' mindset of the pro-EU club - whereas you seem to veer over to the negative, worst-case scenario, and it seemingly doesn't take much for you to give up your rights and independence - so really at the end of the day it's a difference in priorities which leads us to a difference in outlook and perspective - and that is ok ... both perspectives are needed to counter-balance one another.
1> No, i was using the numbers you provided, to show that the 1-2% figure you came up with was nonsense. It would have been selective had i said that Switzerland stood to gain 2.26 billion, rather than 700 million.

2> Intellectual reward has far more value then you seem to give it credit for. This intellectual reward, for example, subsidises the amount Swiss universities get from the government. This money (should) is better spent elsewhere, eg healthcare, education, defence etc. It is also necassary to ensure you have a skilled population in 10 years time and beyond. Without a skilled population, Switzerland becomes completely dependant on foreign labour.

Im not sure where you're getting this idea that i am Pro-EU/Anti-Switzerland...All i did was look at the facts and figures and report what is the logical and likely outcome.

I even used the source you provided.

What has university funding got to do with Swiss rights and independance? I think you are confusing your rhetoric.
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  #398  
Old 28.02.2014, 12:22
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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In case anyone is interested and in Bern:

Tomorrow there'll be a little event/rally at the Bundeshaus about the vote:

http://ouverte-et-solidaire.ch/

Has some 2000+ folk enrolled on facebook.
Absolutely not interested in joining the rally - but I will be there in a different capacity.

I have shared my views on this event on their official Facebook page - and it got a much-needed discussion going with over 200 comments!
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Old 28.02.2014, 12:59
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1> No, i was using the numbers you provided, to show that the 1-2% figure you came up with was nonsense. It would have been selective had i said that Switzerland stood to gain 2.26 billion, rather than 700 million.
I don't get where you are getting this 700 million from ... can you specify please ... ?!

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Im not sure where you're getting this idea that i am Pro-EU/Anti-Switzerland...
I don't think you are "anti-Switzerland" ... but you are definitely playing up the negative possibilities relating to the initiative - IMO anyway.

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All i did was look at the facts and figures and report what is the logical and likely outcome.
Logic is a funny thing .. many times what's "logical" to one guy is not so logical to the next ...

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I even used the source you provided.
Yes, and I would say selectively ...

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What has university funding got to do with Swiss rights and independance?
Nothing per se ... but I think you already knew that and are just trying to have a go at me - that or you fail to acknowledge what is being portrayed by people like you who want to exaggerate the "Repercussions of the Vote" in an effort to prove that the "Vote" outcome was wrong! The goal seems to be to take anything that is not positive, however big or small it might actually be, and say that if the vote had gone in the opposite direction we would be better off! - And my point is that the perception of what is "better" is greatly defined by ones priorities - and for me the independence and rights of my nation are higher in priority than a few hundred million CHF in EU funding!! You may not agree with me, and I know you most likely don't, but the very least you can do is comprehend what I am saying.
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Old 28.02.2014, 13:07
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Some grants will only have started in 2012 and the way that the EC (REA/ERC etc) funds individual research projects means that they hold back significant payments (c. 40% of the grant) throughout the life (and after the end) of the grant.

The figure mentioned above will be a minimum and WILL increase by a significant amount (but no one can say by how much until 2016).
I administer an FP7 project at the moment GoCARB (sorry, quick plug), and as I think EAB and J2488 are both raising some interesting points I thought I would expand a little on the above. According to the document which was quoted, the Swiss have input into FP7 a total of 1.56 Billion, the amount that in June 2012 had been recovered was already above this and will increase by a significant amount.

To put it into context, the grant I am working on received a total of 60% of it's expected budget at the start of the grant (pre-financing), and there will be two more payments - one during the mid-point (interim payment), and one once all of the receipts have been counted (final payment)- this is pretty much standard across all FP7 projects and therefore there will still be a considerable amount of funding coming the way of Switzerland after June 2012, because of the way the funding works.

There is no absolute guarantee that what you put on the application/Grant Agreement will get funded in full (there never is in research finance), but this will increase by a significant amount and will only be known in 2016.
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