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  #401  
Old 28.02.2014, 13:12
EAB EAB is offline
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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According to the document which was quoted, the Swiss have input into FP7 a total of 1.56 Billion, the amount that in June 2012 had been recovered was already above this and will increase by a significant amount.
True, however, the expenditure will also have increased until 2013 and also by Swiss GDP increasing. (as per the same source document)
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  #402  
Old 28.02.2014, 13:51
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I don't get where you are getting this 700 million from ... can you specify please ... ?!

Page 12 of your source, the purple table.
Grant funding paid or to be paid by 15 June 2012 to Swiss researchers since FP3 (in CHF million)

2012 remainder of year = half of 322 = 161 million
2013 = 243 million
2014 = 157million
2015 = 82 million
2016 = 30 million
2017 = 4 million
total = 677 million. Rounded to 700 million to account for overbudget projects (which we know will happen).

I don't think you are "anti-Switzerland" ... but you are definitely playing up the negative possibilities relating to the initiative - IMO anyway.
Incorrect. i am not playing them up. I do believe that they will be greater than the positive possibilities though, as does everyone else in academia.


Logic is a funny thing .. many times what's "logical" to one guy is not so logical to the next ...
Care to point where i have not been logical?


Yes, and I would say selectively ...
How can i be selective with the data you provided?

Nothing per se ... but I think you already knew that and are just trying to have a go at me - that or you fail to acknowledge what is being portrayed by people like you who want to exaggerate the "Repercussions of the Vote" in an effort to prove that the "Vote" outcome was wrong! The goal seems to be to take anything that is not positive, however big or small it might actually be, and say that if the vote had gone in the opposite direction we would be better off! - And my point is that the perception of what is "better" is greatly defined by ones priorities - and for me the independence and rights of my nation are higher in priority than a few hundred million CHF in EU funding!! You may not agree with me, and I know you most likely don't, but the very least you can do is comprehend what I am saying.
Thats all well and true, but swiss independance had nothing to do with not extending FMOP to Croatia. So, again...what has swiss independance got to do with being kicked out of H2020? how would extending the FMOP to Croatia have been contrary to swiss independance?

There is only one person linking this to the vote, and it is not me.

I havent been talking about the vote, i've been talking about H2020. There is another thread for the vote. Anyway, stop going off on a tangent.

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True, however, the expenditure will also have increased until 2013 and also by Swiss GDP increasing. (as per the same source document)
The swiss GDP will not affect the contributions beyond 2013, since there will be no contributions beyond 2013.

What will change is the amount contributed by switzerland to FP8. But, as has already been pointed out, Switzerland will make more of a profit on that then it will on FP7. the increase in return from FP 8 will be exponential in comparison the the return from FP7. The swiss economy did not increase exponentially between 2013 and 2014.
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Old 28.02.2014, 13:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Not completely, but it does show you're only reporting the bits that support your argument, and not the whole context, which is much less in your favour.

You should be a politician.

Incidentally, it should be a cause for concern. Swiss research institutions stand to lose at best, hundreds of millions, and at worst, billions of euros of funding. Keep in mind, FP8 is exponentially larger than FP7, so it stands to reason (according to your report) that swiss institutions were in line to get exponentially better rewards. Since the swiss government is a bit skint, im not sure that funding gap can simply be overcome with money from the government.

ETH and Polytéchnque are financed by the union and so are directly hit while the universities are owned and financed by the Cantons and have a different situation
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  #404  
Old 28.02.2014, 14:20
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Page 12 of your source, the purple table.
Grant funding paid or to be paid by 15 June 2012 to Swiss researchers since FP3 (in CHF million)

2012 remainder of year = half of 322 = 161 million
2013 = 243 million
2014 = 157million
2015 = 82 million
2016 = 30 million
2017 = 4 million
total = 677 million. Rounded to 700 million to account for overbudget projects (which we know will happen).
Ok, now I am utterly confused!!

Looking at that same graph (Figure 7: - page 12) the title of the graph states: "Grant funding paid or to be paid by 15 June 2012 to Swiss researchers since FP3 (in CHF million)"

Now if we add up all the FP7 bars the total comes to exactly 1.559 billion CHF.

Now lets go to page 29 of the same document where it states:

"Based on the data received on the cut-off date of 15 June 2012, the Confederation paid the EU a total of CHF 1.570 billion to enable Swiss researchers to take part in FP7 whereas Swiss researchers managed to secure CHF 1.559 billion in FP funding from the EU."

So, if we want to really get into the details we would see that Switzerland, as of June 2012, has paid into FP7 11 million CHF more than it had received (been granted). (Or!?)

So this 677 million CHF is part of the 1.559 million CHF which was "secured" by Switzerland. No!? ... Or did I completely get this wrong!?

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There is only one person linking this to the vote, and it is not me.

I havent been talking about the vote, i've been talking about H2020. There is another thread for the vote. Anyway, stop going off on a tangent.
Riiiiiight .... and that is why this thread is titled "Repercussion of the Vote already Starting..." - Come on!

The entire thing to do with Croatia has been explained ad nauseam ... if you don't get what it has to do with Swiss independent right by now then nothing will help you ... and if you don't like the explanations - tough!
What Croatia has to do with Horizon 2020 ... go ask the EU ... they decided to make the connection - Switzerland would have no problem with continuing with Horizon 2020 regardless of the agreement being. or not being, signed!
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  #405  
Old 28.02.2014, 14:56
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Ok, I went ahead and called the contact number for the "State Secretariat for Education, Research and Innovation" and was put onto a man who was initially a bit short with me saying that they were very busy and that he only had 2 minutes ... it ended up being more like a 10 minute phone call with him towards the end telling me "Thanks for calling. I was expecting another journalist on the phone to whom I say one thing and they write another... I am glad you actually know your stuff" ... so the call started a bit on edge but ended very well!

He told me the following:

- Since that FP7 report was written, which period ends on June 2012, Switzerland has paid into FP7 an additional 500 million CHF.

- The EU says that As of January 2014 Switzerland has contributed 1.6 billion Euros to FP7, and has secured about 1.8 billion Euros from FP7

- The funding secured by Switzerland does not all return to Switzerland itself.

- Funding that does return is subject to exchange rates. CHF's leave Switzerland at a rate of 1.50 to the Euro, and return at 1.25 to the Euro.

- Final numbers will not be known before 2016

- There are still several funding grants awaiting approval under FP7
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  #406  
Old 28.02.2014, 16:05
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Ok, now I am utterly confused!!

Looking at that same graph (Figure 7: - page 12) the title of the graph states: "Grant funding paid or to be paid by 15 June 2012 to Swiss researchers since FP3 (in CHF million)"

Now if we add up all the FP7 bars the total comes to exactly 1.559 billion CHF.

Now lets go to page 29 of the same document where it states:

"Based on the data received on the cut-off date of 15 June 2012, the Confederation paid the EU a total of CHF 1.570 billion to enable Swiss researchers to take part in FP7 whereas Swiss researchers managed to secure CHF 1.559 billion in FP funding from the EU."

Once again you only present half the paragraph:
As presented earlier, payments to Swiss researchers involved in FP7 projects will continue for several more years but Switzerland's financial contribution to FP7 ends in 2013. This time lag in the receipt of project funding, the above-average rate of success that Swiss researchers have had in securing funding for their project proposals and experiences from FP6 all seem to indicate that the outcome for FP7 might be a positive net financial return.


Now, keep in mind that the budget for H2020 is 60% larger than FP7, but that the swiss economy has not grown 60% in the same period, and you begin to see the impact that the exclusion has. switzerland was going to pay a little bit more, but get vastly more in return.

So, if we want to really get into the details we would see that Switzerland, as of June 2012, has paid into FP7 11 million CHF more than it had received (been granted). (Or!?)

Incorrect. What it means is that by June 2012, Switzerland had recouped almost all the money it paid into FP7.

So this 677 million CHF is part of the 1.559 million CHF which was "secured" by Switzerland. No!? ... Or did I completely get this wrong!?

Secured, yes, but only secured by June 2012. Since there were still 18 more months of the program left, any new projects were not included in those figures. These unmbers will only be known in 2016.

Riiiiiight .... and that is why this thread is titled "Repercussion of the Vote already Starting..." - Come on!

This whole thread has been about the H2020 and Erasmus eviction, which came about as a result of the vote, but not the vote itself.

The entire thing to do with Croatia has been explained ad nauseam ... if you don't get what it has to do with Swiss independent right by now then nothing will help you ... and if you don't like the explanations - tough!
What Croatia has to do with Horizon 2020 ... go ask the EU ... they decided to make the connection - Switzerland would have no problem with continuing with Horizon 2020 regardless of the agreement being. or not being, signed!
Wrong. Croatia is involved in H2020, because it will be contributing to it. FMOP is an enabling factor for H2020. Without FMOP from all EU countries and EU Associates, Croatia is unfairly discriminated against, since Switzerland has previously agreed to extend FMOP to all new entrants, after an appropriate restrictin time (which has passed). Switzerlands conditions for involvement in FP7 required that FMOP is extended to all new entrants.

The only way around it is to either exclude Croatia from H2020, or to exclude Switzerland. Since one is in the EU and one isnt, the decision was obvious.
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  #407  
Old 28.02.2014, 16:21
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Once again you only present half the paragraph:
As presented earlier, payments to Swiss researchers involved in FP7 projects will continue for several more years but Switzerland's financial contribution to FP7 ends in 2013. This time lag in the receipt of project funding, the above-average rate of success that Swiss researchers have had in securing funding for their project proposals and experiences from FP6 all seem to indicate that the outcome for FP7 might be a positive net financial return.
The rest of the paragraph which you quoted above has nothing to do with the fact that the 677 million CHF is not an amount additional to the 1.559 billion which was already secured by June 2012!! I made that very clear!

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Now, keep in mind that the budget for H2020 is 60% larger than FP7, but that the swiss economy has not grown 60% in the same period, and you begin to see the impact that the exclusion has. switzerland was going to pay a little bit more, but get vastly more in return.
Now bear in mind that Switzerland is not entirely excluded from Horizon 2020 - but is only partly excluded for the year 2014!

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Incorrect. What it means is that by June 2012, Switzerland had recouped almost all the money it paid into FP7.
WHAT!?!? Are you kidding me? Read what I said!!

"Switzerland, as of June 2012, has paid into FP7 11 million CHF more than it had received (been granted)."

You must be so eager to contradict me that you end up doing so by rewording what you are trying to contradict!

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Secured, yes, but only secured by June 2012. Since there were still 18 more months of the program left, any new projects were not included in those figures. These unmbers will only be known in 2016.

Thanks for repeating what I had been saying all along!!

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This whole thread has been about the H2020 and Erasmus eviction, which came about as a result of the vote, but not the vote itself.
Forget it man ...
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  #408  
Old 28.02.2014, 16:34
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Guys, you are talking past each other and saying the same thing by now.

You both agree that by 2012, Switzerland had already paid all its contribution to FP7 and had gotten almost all the money back*. Right?

Because we know that FP7 is still paying out, and some of its funded projects haven't even started yet, we all concluded that by the end of FP7, Switzerland will very likely have more than recouped what it paid in.

Further, EAB has found out, in January 2014 they are already recouped more than they paid in, and this is DESPITE the very unfavorable exchange rate fluctuation (which was pretty unexpected and due to the major economic crisis).
I conclude then that if it wasn't for the crisis, the money coming back to Switzerland as measured in CHF would have been even higher than what they put in. As it is, even due to the unfavorable (for Switzerland, in the context of FP7) exchange rate fluctuations**, they were % very close to breaking even in 2012, and they already surpassed it in 2014, with the contributions all paid and part of the benefits still to come.

If there won't be another Euro crisis and the exchange rate would return to its more usual historical values during Horizon, then Horizon 2020 would be that much better for Switzerland. Maybe they would even pay in 1.25 CHF to the Euro and recoup 1.50 when it goes back...

* I define this in terms of securing the funding - it is obvious that e.g. salaries go to the employees and they are not forced to spend it all in Switzerland. This is exactly the same for money that does not come from FP7 to researchers working in Switzerland, so it seems that "splitting hairs" to say not all the money stays in Switzerland is a pretty artificial argument to pull out. The research credit and the work done "stays" in Switzerland, those researchers did that work in exchange for their salaries.

** I mean, if they got just what they put in, for each 1.5 CHF they paid in, they would only get 1.25 CHF back. Fortunately for them, even in such disadvantageous exchange rate conditions, they got more funding than they paid in! Imagine how much better Horizon 2020 could be, not only due to the scope but also because such drastic exchange fluctuations are even more unexpected now (or are they? ).
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  #409  
Old 28.02.2014, 16:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Come on guys. On the scale of things, Erasmus money etc. is just peanuts. I'm sure Switzerland can send students abroad and fund it from a whip around in the pub.

The bigger questions are how will the CH-EU relations change, whether trade will be affected, whether there will be more pressure on tax regimes, banking secrecy etc. if it comes to a renegotiation or if relationships deteriorate.
The title of this thread is "Repercussions of Vote Already Starting" and in less than three weeks we have already identified impacts on students, loss of benefits for universities and research and consequent requirements for additional expenditure which will end up as an extra demand on our taxes.
Of course, this is not the end of the story; there will be more and hopefully, positive as well as, negative results but when these will be identified and their extent is unknown.

As I mentioned before this whole thing is becoming Kafkaesque; an example is discussing here about the exact impact of these changes on the universities when the Rectors of said Universities have clearly given their views.

The majority in favour of the initiative was tiny and the consequences of the implementation will likely change that majority; whether positively or negatively remains to be seen.

EAB stated "for me the independence and rights of my nation are higher in priority......" which kind of ignores the fact that the Swiss voted multiple times for the current situation with the EU; it is not like the situation was enforced on us by some dictator or military body.
How many people will agree with EABs view further down the road remains to be seen.
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  #410  
Old 28.02.2014, 17:14
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

I haven't actually paid attention to all the detailed numerical postings. So has anything actually happened already? Anyone fired? Anyone kicked out? Anyone with a place booked as part of Erasmus now having it cancelled?

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EAB stated "for me the independence and rights of my nation are higher in priority......" which kind of ignores the fact that the Swiss voted multiple times for the current situation with the EU; it is not like the situation was enforced on us by some dictator or military body.
How many people will agree with EABs view further down the road remains to be seen.
I agree with the principle that it is Switzerland as a sovereign nation that should decide. They decided for FMOP in the past and now they changed their mind and decided they want quotas.

IMO, it was a mistake to join FMOP without quotas in the first place and it would have been better for everybody had they done so, rather than now try to unwind and re-negotiate.

My question is: "if they were unable to negotiate this before, will they be able to do it in the next 3 years?"
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  #411  
Old 28.02.2014, 17:51
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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we all concluded that by the end of FP7, Switzerland will very likely have more than recouped what it paid in.
Absolutely, this is very likely - not certain, but likely.

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Further, EAB has found out, in January 2014 they are already recouped more than they paid in, and this is DESPITE the very unfavorable exchange rate fluctuation
"recouped" - I don't know ... it's more like x amount has been secured in grants. AFAIK, the exchange rate difference between the funds leaving and re-entering Switzerland is only realized once the Euros actually get exchanged back into CHF - and the sum of 1.8 billion Euros was also including, obviously, the sum not yet paid out.

From your above statement it sounds like 1.8 billion Euros have already been "recouped" by Switzerland, and thus changed back into CHF ... perhaps this is not what you meant.

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* I define this in terms of securing the funding - it is obvious that e.g. salaries go to the employees and they are not forced to spend it all in Switzerland. This is exactly the same for money that does not come from FP7 to researchers working in Switzerland, so it seems that "splitting hairs" to say not all the money stays in Switzerland is a pretty artificial argument to pull out. The research credit and the work done "stays" in Switzerland, those researchers did that work in exchange for their salaries.
But if I read about it in the documentation, and then have it repeated on a phone call to the SBFI, it seems to me to not just be "splitting hairs" ... but I can see why to some it may seem that way ...

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Imagine how much better Horizon 2020 could be,
I want to make clear that I am not against Horizon 2020 - why would I be - but I simply dislike it when people use, directly or indirectly, something like this as leverage in making the initiative vote out to be having an overly negative effect on the nation. At the end of the day I knew that this would be a difficult decision (the initiative) and that we as a nation would have to overcome tough obstacles - and this I saw as the price of being able to regain our right to dictate our own immigration policy.

So my role here has been to finally get into the details of the subject after weeks of hearing a constant barrage of dooms-day talk online, in the news, on FB etc ... and to realize that we really don't know what the financial result of Horizon 2020 will be! Period!

FP6 - we got 102.5% "back"
FP7 - if the numbers are accurate (I have not been able to verify them) then at the time of January 2014 we got 112.5%, or about 200'000Euro above what we invested, in secured grants. The investment made to FP6 was 3.16% (1.6 billion Euro) of the total (50.5 billion Euro)
FP8 - we have already approved the investment of 4.4 billion CHF (about 3.6 billion Euros), or about 4.5% of the total 80 billion Euro budget - an increase of about 1.35% from investment into FP7.

So ultimately we hope for the best, and if we loose out a bit by not having full "membership" to FP8 for 2014 - well, what price does one place on the sovereign right as a nation to control it's own immigration policy ..!? That is my position anyhow!

In hind sight it would have been preferable to have the Croatia matter taken care of in the initiative ... that is true - but it would have been very tricky either way to say the least.
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Old 28.02.2014, 18:00
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Absolutely, this is very likely - not certain, but likely.

"recouped" - I don't know ... it's more like x amount has been secured in grants. AFAIK, the exchange rate difference between the funds leaving and re-entering Switzerland is only realized once the Euros actually get exchanged back into CHF - and the sum of 1.8 billion Euros was also including, obviously, the sum not yet paid out.

From your above statement it sounds like 1.8 billion Euros have already been "recouped" by Switzerland, and thus changed back into CHF ... perhaps this is not what you meant.

But if I read about it in the documentation, and then have it repeated on a phone call to the SBFI, it seems to me to not just be "splitting hairs" ... but I can see why to some it may seem that way ...

I want to make clear that I am not against Horizon 2020 - why would I be - but I simply dislike it when people use, directly or indirectly, something like this as leverage in making the initiative vote out to be having an overly negative effect on the nation. At the end of the day I knew that this would be a difficult decision (the initiative) and that we as a nation would have to overcome tough obstacles - and this I saw as the price of being able to regain our right to dictate our own immigration policy.

So my role here has been to finally get into the details of the subject after weeks of hearing a constant barrage of dooms-day talk online, in the news, on FB etc ... and to realize that we really don't know what the financial result of Horizon 2020 will be! Period!

FP6 - we got 102.5% "back"
FP7 - if the numbers are accurate (I have not been able to verify them) then at the time of January 2014 we got 112.5%, or about 200'000Euro above what we invested, in secured grants. The investment made to FP6 was 3.16% (1.6 billion Euro) of the total (50.5 billion Euro)
FP8 - we have already approved the investment of 4.4 billion CHF (about 3.6 billion Euros), or about 4.5% of the total 80 billion Euro budget - an increase of about 1.35% from investment into FP7.

So ultimately we hope for the best, and if we loose out a bit by not having full "membership" to FP8 for 2014 - well, what price does one place on the sovereign right as a nation to control it's own immigration policy ..!? That is my position anyhow!

In hind sight it would have been preferable to have the Croatia matter taken care of in the initiative ... that is true - but it would have been very tricky either way to say the least.
About "what price does one place on the sovereign right as a nation to control it's own immigration policy .."

Wonder what the result of the vote would have been had the document said this will cost x Rappen or x Billion or whatever.....

Of course, joining the EU is like joining any club. It means gaining some benefits and losing some rights; the question is "what is a reasonable balance?"
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Old 28.02.2014, 18:12
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "what price does one place on the sovereign right as a nation to control it's own immigration policy .."

Wonder what the result of the vote would have been had the document said this will cost x Rappen or x Billion or whatever.....
If I had been told before voting that if the initiative was accepted there would be a loss to Switzerland's budget of 500 million CHF, I would have still voted yes. For me to vote no it would have taken something that would cause the Swiss economy to be seriously undermined - something that could put masses of ordinary Swiss people out of work etc ... at that point I would have serious doubts about voting yes.

If someone came to me and said that if the initiative came through I would loose my job, I would still have voted yes. It would have sucked to loose my job (especially because I really like my place of work) and it would have meant finding another job - but that I can abide.

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Of course, joining the EU is like joining any club. It means gaining some benefits and losing some rights; the question is "what is a reasonable balance?"
Not joining the EU and not planning to

The "reasonable balance" is what we Swiss decided on ...
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Old 28.02.2014, 18:12
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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AFAIK, the exchange rate difference between the funds leaving and re-entering Switzerland is only realized once the Euros actually get exchanged back into CHF - and the sum of 1.8 billion Euros was also including, obviously, the sum not yet paid out.



From your above statement it sounds like 1.8 billion Euros have already been "recouped" by Switzerland, and thus changed back into CHF ... perhaps this is not what you meant.
I don't know exactly, but I'm fairly sure that the lump sum gets exchanged at the start of the grants and placed with the institution. It is then that the salary to the researcher is calculated (and remains fixed not affected by further fluctuations) and paid monthly. As such I think that the number given at January 2014 is already all exchanged to CHF.

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I want to make clear that I am not against Horizon 2020 - why would I be - but I simply dislike it when people use, directly or indirectly, something like this as leverage in making the initiative vote out to be having an overly negative effect on the nation. At the end of the day I knew that this would be a difficult decision (the initiative) and that we as a nation would have to overcome tough obstacles - and this I saw as the price of being able to regain our right to dictate our own immigration policy.
I understand why it seems to you this way given the timing (right after the vote), but actually at the core to a lot of these programs funded by the EU in these huge frameworks is the concept of mobility. To the extent that researchers can ONLY apply to certain grants IF they move to a different country from the one they are national AND from the one they have been working in the past X months.
Otherwise just get funding from the respective national bodies like the SNSF for Switzerland and the respective national bodies in other countries (which themselves also get funding from the EU frameworks).

If you look at it from that light, I think it actually makes a lot of sense to exclude Switzerland if they are going to limit the free movement, and maybe you can accept that it isn't just necessarily about "revenge". Clearly both the EU and Switzerland are being reasonable in not retroactively screwing anyone, so grants already given will still be started, and as the law won't change for up to 3 years, everyone gets their permits.

But going forward, one can imagine the grief if a researcher gets one of these grants but then can't get a permit! One may say that it is unlikely but given that the grants and permits are given by different bodies it is at best an additional complication, and at worst a personal disaster at least for that researcher's career.
With Free Movement it worked automatically, without Free Movement maybe it does make sense to not extend Horizon 2020 to Switzerland.

EDIT: Just to add about the splitting hairs things, I really mean by this that if a Swiss institution secures X as funding, and then say 80% of that is a researcher's salary (making the % just for illustration), and then that researcher doesn't blow all the money in Fondue and expensive rent (maybe just 50% of the salary), I don't think it is fair to argue that Switzerland only recouped 0.5*0.8*X.
The other 0.2*X is probably overheads (could be further salaries for admin staff, or trips to scientific events) and/or equipment (which does stay in a very real sense in Switzerland). And the half of the salary the researcher saves up e.g. for retirement may stay in the long-term if the researcher establishes in Switzerland, or leave with the researcher. But that salary and those trips were all paying for the work, the work was done in Switzerland, and that is what should count in my opinion. Otherwise it is very annoying to be consistent when you consider some researcher paid by 100% Swiss money that wasn't gained through FP7, which can also not spend all the salary here etc.

Last edited by BaselPT; 28.02.2014 at 18:27.
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  #415  
Old 28.02.2014, 18:28
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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If you look at it from that light, I think it actually makes a lot of sense to exclude Switzerland if they are going to limit the free movement, and maybe you can accept that it isn't just necessarily about "revenge". Clearly both the EU and Switzerland are being reasonable in not retroactively screwing anyone, so grants already given will still be started, and as the law won't change for up to 3 years, everyone gets their permits.
Yes, I totally get that. - And like you said, it could not very well have been that Switzerland was able to carry on with full "membership" with Horizon 2020 in 2014 when it is unlikely that by the end of this year we will be back on track with a renegotiated FMOP agreement. Makes sense.

Again, Switzerland not being full partner to Horizon 2020 for 2014 is nothing near to the end of the world ... I am sorry it had to come to this ... but there you have it ..

Thing is that regarding the swelling immigration issue in Switzerland no other party or group were coming up with anything effective in dealing with the issues - even though some of them acknowledged the issues being real. There were just no other answers around .. and the Federal Government just drag their feet and try to never do anything which might rock the boat ... I even told this to an SVP politician, who btw was not not for the initiative himself, and he agreed that it did feel a bit like answers were in very short supply from those opposed to the initiative.

So there you have it ... this democracy thing ain't perfect ... but it's what we got - and I happen to think it's better than most ... but that's just me!
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Old 28.02.2014, 18:38
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The "reasonable balance" is what we Swiss decided on ...
I'm curious what you think that "reasonable balance" really is. if you make it harder for an EU professional to come into Switzerland to work due to quotas and other hurdles (and nobody denies the fact that Switzerland is desperate for EU professionals), then you impair the attractiveness of Switzerland as a place to work for EU professionals. and if the quotas and other hurdles that the Swiss ultimately implement do not make it materially harder for EU professionals to come into Switzerland to work, what exactly did you vote on?

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Old 28.02.2014, 18:57
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I'm curious what you think that "reasonable balance" really is. if you make it harder for an EU professional to come into Switzerland to work due to quotas and other hurdles (and nobody denies the fact that Switzerland is desperate for EU professionals), then you impair the attractiveness of Switzerland as a place to work for EU professionals. and if the quotas and other hurdles that the Swiss ultimately implement do not make it materially harder for EU professionals to come into Switzerland to work, what exactly did you vote on?

I think part of the issue is that Basel, Zurich and Geneva (for example) really do want the EU professionals, but apparently a lot (enough) of the other Swiss do not, for whichever reasons (national pride? Cultural identity? I honestly don't know, but it is their business not mine).

It remains to be seen if those that do not realize that a lot of the wealth generated in the larger cities is partly due to the growth enabled by EU professionals will change their minds later, if for example the cities cut back on the distribution of wealth to the more rural areas.

EAB apparently realizes that there are financial costs to pay for this and still wants to curb EU professionals, so this is exactly what he voted on.
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Old 28.02.2014, 19:14
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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True, however, the expenditure will also have increased until 2013 and also by Swiss GDP increasing. (as per the same source document)
I'm absolutely not disputing that, but that would mean that there is another c. 18 months (from the report) of possible CH contribution to FP7, but the timeframe for money received by CH continues for an additional two years on top of this.

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/snip
- The funding secured by Switzerland does not all return to Switzerland itself. /snip
Hmm, intriguing, does this mean that the figures they are reporting are only those generated by coordinators I wonder, or are they simply referring to monies which will have been received and are then used to purchase equipment or services in other countries?
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  #419  
Old 28.02.2014, 19:15
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I haven't actually paid attention to all the detailed numerical postings. So has anything actually happened already? Anyone fired? Anyone kicked out? Anyone with a place booked as part of Erasmus now having it cancelled?



I agree with the principle that it is Switzerland as a sovereign nation that should decide. They decided for FMOP in the past and now they changed their mind and decided they want quotas.

IMO, it was a mistake to join FMOP without quotas in the first place and it would have been better for everybody had they done so, rather than now try to unwind and re-negotiate.

My question is: "if they were unable to negotiate this before, will they be able to do it in the next 3 years?"
About "it was a mistake to join FMOP without quotas in the first place and it would have been better for everybody had they done so, rather than now try to unwind and re-negotiate." Of course hind sight is great! But to be fair one must understand than immigrants can only immigrate here if they have a job; nobody back then could have forecast that the Swiss economy would be so strong that it generates around 100K surplus jobs every year (by surplus I mean in excess of new Swiss in the market plus existing work force).

About "Anyone with a place booked as part of Erasmus now having it cancelled?" No, nothing is cancelled that was already agreed; but Swiss students who were expected to send in their grant applications around now for the current phase are blocked until the next round of funding, means at least next year.
Foreign students who have grants to come to Switzerland this year are I assume are also OK, maybe someone knows? Unless if they are Croatian and then there is a permit question to resolve.

Overall for H2020 I think it is simply a question of a slow wind down as existing grants run out - then there will be the question of who will front up any money needed for new projects here or the researchers will move to other countries that have money?

The next grants for the HBP project were supposed to be announced this week including some to Swiss led projects. I do not know if this happened as planned - I had a quick look at the HBP news but found nothing
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  #420  
Old 28.02.2014, 19:31
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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If I had been told before voting that if the initiative was accepted there would be a loss to Switzerland's budget of 500 million CHF, I would have still voted yes. For me to vote no it would have taken something that would cause the Swiss economy to be seriously undermined - something that could put masses of ordinary Swiss people out of work etc ... at that point I would have serious doubts about voting yes.

If someone came to me and said that if the initiative came through I would loose my job, I would still have voted yes. It would have sucked to loose my job (especially because I really like my place of work) and it would have meant finding another job - but that I can abide.



Not joining the EU and not planning to

The "reasonable balance" is what we Swiss decided on ...
About "a loss to Switzerland's budget of 500 million CHF, " - that is an annual loss? I suppose it depends on how the politicians would spin it; if for example they said it would cost more annually than the Gripen project .......

Or 100CHF for every Swiss man, woman and child every year

Last edited by marton; 28.02.2014 at 20:00.
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