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  #421  
Old 28.02.2014, 20:14
EAB EAB is offline
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I'm curious what you think that "reasonable balance" really is.
Honestly, something makes me quite sceptical that you are genuinely "curious" about what I think.

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if you make it harder for an EU professional to come into Switzerland to work due to quotas and other hurdles (and nobody denies the fact that Switzerland is desperate for EU professionals), then you impair the attractiveness of Switzerland as a place to work for EU professionals. and if the quotas and other hurdles that the Swiss ultimately implement do not make it materially harder for EU professionals to come into Switzerland to work, what exactly did you vote on?
Have you read the text of the initiative? It's less than an A4 page (Link to text)
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  #422  
Old 28.02.2014, 20:20
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About "a loss to Switzerland's budget of 500 million CHF, " - that is an annual loss? I suppose it depends on how the politicians would spin it; if for example they said it would cost more annually than the Gripen project .......

Or 100CHF for every Swiss man, woman and child every year
If we lost out on something similar to the financial "profit" of FP7 as it currently stands we would loose out of about 200 milion CHF. So I added a bit more for FP8 ... that's where 500 million CHF came from ... it probably would be an amount spread out through a few years as the projects are paid out .. But it was nothing specific .. just an arbitrary number more or less.
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  #423  
Old 28.02.2014, 20:21
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Thing is that regarding the swelling immigration issue in Switzerland no other party or group were coming up with anything effective in dealing with the issues - even though some of them acknowledged the issues being real.
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Christoph Mörgeli: It is no longer up to the People’s Party to put the [new] article in the constitution. Given the majority of voters and cantons, government and parliament have received a clear mandate to do this. With the people’s “yes”, it’s not just the People’s Party that is taking responsibility, but the whole people – fortunately.
Does that sound like a party with a solution??? The reality is that they never thought past the vote, to how it should be implemented and how to deal the fall out from breaking the bilateral.
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  #424  
Old 28.02.2014, 20:31
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I think part of the issue is that Basel, Zurich and Geneva (for example) really do want the EU professionals, but apparently a lot (enough) of the other Swiss do not...
Uhm, no, this is not accurate.
The general attitude behind the Swiss vote for the initiative had everything to do with those who were not "EU professionals". There is nothing which states that Swiss votes "yes" because they didn't want EU professionals in Switzerland ... I don't know why anyone would think that ... !?

There does exist a concern of non-Swiss making employment options more competitive than maybe should be for Swiss people in their own country - but again, I have heard nothing to suggest that this concern was directed towards "EU professionals".

As for the "why" - it's extremely simple - after all is said and done we want the right to control our own immigration policy!

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EAB apparently realizes that there are financial costs to pay for this and still wants to curb EU professionals, so this is exactly what he voted on.
Correct. And I don't think this is going to lead to "EU professional" leaving Switzerland en-mass, or even staying away en-mass - I really don't!
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  #425  
Old 28.02.2014, 20:32
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Does that sound like a party with a solution??? The reality is that they never thought past the vote, to how it should be implemented and how to deal the fall out from breaking the bilateral.
Yes - they got the ball rolling - so good on them!!
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  #426  
Old 28.02.2014, 20:35
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Hmm, intriguing, does this mean that the figures they are reporting are only those generated by coordinators I wonder, or are they simply referring to monies which will have been received and are then used to purchase equipment or services in other countries?
From what I gathered there is the amount granted to the project, and then within that project budget there are costs towards, as you said "equipment or services in other countries". I might give them another call when I have a chance ...
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  #427  
Old 28.02.2014, 23:18
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

It seems very strange to me, that EU is actively taking repercussions, before the swiss government has even elaborated the implementation of the new law. Legally for the next three years nothing will change. The swiss government has up to feb 2017 to present the definite law and its implementaion.
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  #428  
Old 28.02.2014, 23:22
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It seems very strange to me, that EU is actively taking repercussions, before the swiss government has even elaborated the implementation of the new law. Legally for the next three years nothing will change. The swiss government has up to feb 2017 to present the definite law and its implementaion.
Horizon 2020 and Erasmus+ is just because we didn't sign the agreement with Croatia.

The halting of talks on the electricity agreement ... that I think was just the EU throwing a fit ...
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  #429  
Old 28.02.2014, 23:52
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Yes - they got the ball rolling - so good on them!!
And they will run away before the avalanche starts
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  #430  
Old 28.02.2014, 23:56
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Honestly, something makes me quite sceptical that you are genuinely "curious" about what I think.



Have you read the text of the initiative? It's less than an A4 page (Link to text)
No need to be defensive, I am genuinely curious what you think a "reasonable balance" is, and how to achieve it. And yes, I have read the initiative, believe it or not even in it's native form, though I'm not sure why you would ask or assume otherwise.

The initiative is targeted clearly at EU immigration, since Switzerland already controlled immigration from outside the EU (or, more accurately, the EFTA). Either the implemented legislation makes it much more difficult for EU professionals to enter Switzerland (which ironically will likely result in further salary inflation), or it will not (in which case I am wondering why the SVP bothered with all the fuss). I get the part about some voters simply wanting fewer people living in Switzerland, but after past guest-worker programs and several years of FMOP it is not as if you can simply turn off the spigot - neither immigration or economics work that efficiently.
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  #431  
Old 01.03.2014, 00:10
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And they will run away before the avalanche starts
They, together with many other political parties and business leaders, will be part of the implementation process.
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  #432  
Old 01.03.2014, 00:29
EAB EAB is offline
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No need to be defensive, I am genuinely curious what you think a "reasonable balance" is, and how to achieve it. And yes, I have read the initiative, believe it or not even in it's native form, though I'm not sure why you would ask or assume otherwise.
Well then I apologise. I will try to satisfy your curiosity.

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The initiative is targeted clearly at EU immigration, since Switzerland already controlled immigration from outside the EU (or, more accurately, the EFTA).
As you know the initiative states: "1. Switzerland shall control the immigration of foreigners independently."

The only mentions of a grouping of people are "foreigners" and "asylum" seekers (who are also foreigners).

Like you said, Switzerland has pretty much had full and independent immigration control for all other nations in the world except those under the FMOP agreement - so this addition to the Swiss Constitution places a clear blanket over all foreigners and stipulates that "Switzerland shall control the immigration of foreigners independently".

The effect of the Constitutional amendment will probably be mostly noticed obviously by citizens of states who are party to the FMOP agreement.

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Either the implemented legislation makes it much more difficult for EU professionals to enter Switzerland, or it will not.
There is no reason for me to suspect that the implementation of the Constitutional text will target "EU professionals" who are in demand as per the quota allowances put into place.

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(in which case I am wondering why the SVP bothered with all the fuss)
The "fuss" is about regaining our right to control our own immigration policy - not just some of it - not just most of it - but ALL of it!

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I get the part about some voters simply wanting fewer people living in Switzerland, but after past guest-worker programs and several years of FMOP it is not as if you can simply turn off the spigot - neither immigration or economics work that efficiently.
There is no talk of turning off anything.
Immigrants are needed here, yes, but there is such a thing as too much - even of a good thing!

I don't really want to go round and round in circles trying to explain what really is quite simple ... so I don't expect you to see eye-to-eye with me, or to agree with me, but only that you understand what I am saying. - Thanks.
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  #433  
Old 01.03.2014, 01:33
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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"Christoph Mörgeli: It is no longer up to the People’s Party to put the [new] article in the constitution. Given the majority of voters and cantons, government and parliament have received a clear mandate to do this. With the people’s “yes”, it’s not just the People’s Party that is taking responsibility, but the whole people – fortunately."

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Die SVP zeigte sich konsterniert: Der Bundesrat hätte nur «bekennende Gegner der Initiative» in die Arbeitsgruppe integriert, liess die Partei in einem Communiqué verlauten.

«Einmal mehr ist der Wille zur korrekten Umsetzung eines Volksentscheides beim Bundesrat offenbar nicht vorhanden.» Dieses Verhalten sei «Ausdruck einer unglaublichen Arroganz» und müsse «als klare Provokation gegenüber den Urhebern der Initiative interpretiert werden
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They, together with many other political parties and business leaders, will be part of the implementation process.
EAB Are you sure "They, together with many other political parties and business leaders, will be part of the implementation process."?
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  #434  
Old 01.03.2014, 11:22
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Yes - they got the ball rolling - so good on them!!
No they did not, what they did is compound the problem, their contribution is to jump up and down and shout for someone else to solve the problem for them. Please point us to the constructive ideas from the SVP on how to address the problem retaining free access to the EU market while introduction quotas on the free movement requirements???
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  #435  
Old 01.03.2014, 11:30
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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"Christoph Mörgeli: It is no longer up to the People’s Party to put the [new] article in the constitution. Given the majority of voters and cantons, government and parliament have received a clear mandate to do this. With the people’s “yes”, it’s not just the People’s Party that is taking responsibility, but the whole people – fortunately."

Quote;
Die SVP zeigte sich konsterniert: Der Bundesrat hätte nur «bekennende Gegner der Initiative» in die Arbeitsgruppe integriert, liess die Partei in einem Communiqué verlauten.

«Einmal mehr ist der Wille zur korrekten Umsetzung eines Volksentscheides beim Bundesrat offenbar nicht vorhanden.» Dieses Verhalten sei «Ausdruck einer unglaublichen Arroganz» und müsse «als klare Provokation gegenüber den Urhebern der Initiative interpretiert werden
».




EAB Are you sure "They, together with many other political parties and business leaders, will be part of the implementation process."?
Not sure what you are trying to get at with your quoted text ... Are you trying to suggest that the SVP will have nothing to do with the manner in which the Constitutional text is put into practice!?

Let's not waste one another time ... if you think the SVP will have nothing whatsoever to do with the implementation, well so be it .. I think differently!
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  #436  
Old 01.03.2014, 11:31
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Uhm, no, this is not accurate.
The general attitude behind the Swiss vote for the initiative had everything to do with those who were not "EU professionals". There is nothing which states that Swiss votes "yes" because they didn't want EU professionals in Switzerland ... I don't know why anyone would think that ... !?

There does exist a concern of non-Swiss making employment options more competitive than maybe should be for Swiss people in their own country - but again, I have heard nothing to suggest that this concern was directed towards "EU professionals".

As for the "why" - it's extremely simple - after all is said and done we want the right to control our own immigration policy!



Correct. And I don't think this is going to lead to "EU professional" leaving Switzerland en-mass, or even staying away en-mass - I really don't!
All here to me sounds a bit rethorical and ideological. Just to taken ONE term. WHAT is a "professional" ? Only a person with a university degree. But CH does need and will need "professionals" like masons, carpenters, plumbers, bus-drivers, locomotive-drivers, tram-drivers, cashiers, taxi-drivers, forwarding/transport-specialists, cleaners, electricians etc
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Old 01.03.2014, 11:33
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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WHAT is a "professional" ?
A prostitute.

Tom
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  #438  
Old 01.03.2014, 11:37
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No they did not, what they did is compound the problem, their contribution is to jump up and down and shout for someone else to solve the problem for them. Please point us to the constructive ideas from the SVP on how to address the problem retaining free access to the EU market while introduction quotas on the free movement requirements???
That is your opinion. You see it as "compounding the problem", and I see it as finally something having been done which FORCES the Federal Government to start working on the issues! If you don't see the issues, then that's another issue altogether!

And all this noise being made at the SVP is just infantile since at the end of the day it was the Swiss people who voted for the initiative - are you then insinuating that over 50% of the Swiss electorate who voted are a bunch of brainwashed idiots who cannot think for themselves?!

I don't have to point you to didly squat mate! The SVP made a milestone change in the Swiss Constitution, one which others here agreed should probably never have been undone from the start of the FMOP agreement in Switzerland. You don't like it!? - You don't agree!? - Tough!

You lot need something to hate and sink your teeth into, I get it ... but don't treat the majority of the voting electorate like a herd of cattle - that is NOT on!!
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  #439  
Old 01.03.2014, 11:41
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All here to me sounds a bit rethorical and ideological. Just to taken ONE term. WHAT is a "professional" ? Only a person with a university degree. But CH does need and will need "professionals" like masons, carpenters, plumbers, bus-drivers, locomotive-drivers, tram-drivers, cashiers, taxi-drivers, forwarding/transport-specialists, cleaners, electricians etc

Don't know why....!? You basically repeated what was said ... that Switzerland needs professional immigrants ...

To me a "professional" is not one about what the skill set is, though this does play a role of course, but it's also about ones attitude to life and work etc.
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  #440  
Old 01.03.2014, 11:44
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Not sure what you are trying to get at with your quoted text ... Are you trying to suggest that the SVP will have nothing to do with the manner in which the Constitutional text is put into practice!?

Let's not waste one another time ... if you think the SVP will have nothing whatsoever to do with the implementation, well so be it .. I think differently!
What you think or what I think does not matter. That the SVP as a large party will be involved and HAS TO BE involved in the implementation. But Professor Doktor Mörgeli is NOT the SVP. Ulrich Giezendanner will demand the right to get his truck-drivers and his mechanics. And many of his drivers are no longer 20 . Professor Doktor Mörgeli (PDM) and the Ayatollah-men-Herrliberg (AmH) will NOT provide him any

The problem now is that the YES vote is to be implemented but PDM should not forget that 50,3% is a majority but not an overwhelming one. And the AmH should realise that the 0.3% majority does not mean that he has a majority now to destroy CH-Schengen. If he wants to get back into the Bundesrat, Micheline Calmy-Rey may do so as well. MCR describes the situation of Switzerland as a cul-de-sac with only one solution, the full entry. You say "no chance" ? Are you sure ? MCR won Schengen/Dublin on one Sunday-afternoon. And has successfully participated in many electoral victories for her side in spite of NOT being a billionaire
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