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  #481  
Old 03.03.2014, 21:30
EAB EAB is offline
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Yes, you have the odd situation that many senior SVP people (like Spuhler and Blocher) own very large companies that have much more than the average number of foreigners- figures I saw were Spuhler (30%) and Blocher (30%).
So!? The initiative is not against ANY and ALL foreigners/immigrants - it's simply a law which applies the logically sound notion that there is such a thing as too many. Nowhere have a I seen the SVP or Blocher stating that Switzerland has no need of foreign labour, now have I seen the SVP of Blocher state that the expulsion of all foreigners is what they are striving for.

So I see no "odd situation" in those who are for the initiative hiring foreign employees.
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  #482  
Old 03.03.2014, 21:32
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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They don't take the whole country seriously. One finds people who know Switzerland from within in the border region but otherwise, this votation is understood as misplaced arrogance. For the Germans who remember that the Swiss actually voted yes for those treaties they indirectly reject now, Swiss democracy looks very democratic but unreliable. The issue is looked at from a rather pragmatic or legal point of view, not political. No chance for the Swiss to ever understand the Germans under these circumstances. Not that the Swiss would listen anyway. Germany is basically thinking business first and don't really care about the Swiss who sound mostly primitive in their ears. The Swiss don't have to care, but the image "Schaden" is permanent now, especially after the tax evasion issues.
Contrary to common belief the bilateral agreements do not inlude free movement of goods. They do however include treatment of untaxed assets

http://www.europa.admin.ch/themen/00...x.html?lang=en

and I don't remember Germany sticking to it. And I also don't remember Italy to stick to the refugee agreements.

Weird that as many Germans are migrating to this primitive not to be taken seriously country as to the whole rest of the word together. And it's not a new thing. It's been happening for 150 years.
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  #483  
Old 03.03.2014, 21:35
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I'm happy with the outcome. It shows that EU can't be messed around with and hard pressed by the minority of fascist. The result of this vote will be that Switzerland will be forced to fight over scientists who can bring their grants to their country, giving us more leverage about the salaries ect. This, or be left behind on the science field.
A) the problem is not some foreign scientists who easily meet even the SVP criteria of qualified
B) a serious problem is the participation of Swiss universities in international research programs
C) important also is that those in charge manage to keep Switzerland in students exchange programs, That some spokesmen of Uni and ETH belittled the matter and stated the CH students were not really interested is not convincing but sounds a bit like psychological warfare
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  #484  
Old 03.03.2014, 21:40
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Tuition fees are low in Switzerland because unlike other countries the swiss tax payer is bearing the bulk of the cost. Including for 38% foreign students.

And this according to EU is having the cake and eating it?
Unlike which other EU-countries? Many other countries in Europe have lower fees than Switzerland (notable exception UK).
http://www.mastersportal.eu/articles...omparison.html
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  #485  
Old 03.03.2014, 21:41
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Yes, you have the odd situation that many senior SVP people (like Spuhler and Blocher) own very large companies that have much more than the average number of foreigners- figures I saw were Spuhler (30%) and Blocher (28%).
I suppose it is even far more in case of Ulrich Giezendanner (trucking etc)
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  #486  
Old 03.03.2014, 21:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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So!? The initiative is not against ANY and ALL foreigners/immigrants - it's simply a law which applies the logically sound notion that there is such a thing as too many. Nowhere have a I seen the SVP or Blocher stating that Switzerland has no need of foreign labour, now have I seen the SVP of Blocher state that the expulsion of all foreigners is what they are striving for.

So I see no "odd situation" in those who are for the initiative hiring foreign employees.
It is odd that the people who are driving the initiative that there are too many foreigners here are the same people who are bringing in most foreigners; considerably more than the average of 23%. Maybe if the SVPer's who employ such a large %ge stayed with the average then the situation would look different?
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  #487  
Old 03.03.2014, 22:00
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Contrary to common belief the bilateral agreements do not inlude free movement of goods. They do however include treatment of untaxed assets

http://www.europa.admin.ch/themen/00...x.html?lang=en

and I don't remember Germany sticking to it. And I also don't remember Italy to stick to the refugee agreements.

Weird that as many Germans are migrating to this primitive not to be taken seriously country as to the whole rest of the word together. And it's not a new thing. It's been happening for 150 years.
If it has been happening for 150 years why change it now?
Of course Blocher himself is a descendent of those early German adopters... .
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  #488  
Old 03.03.2014, 22:09
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Well, it does save me the hours I was spending writing an ERC grant, on the other hand it means I'll never get an ERC grant and have no idea if my contract will be renewed or not. :/
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  #489  
Old 03.03.2014, 23:19
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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For the Germans who remember that the Swiss actually voted yes for those treaties they indirectly reject now, Swiss democracy looks very democratic but unreliable
One more thing. You know why the swiss people accepted free movement. They were told 8'000 would come pear year and if not this could be regulated. Not the swiss people were unreliable the swiss politicians were. The figures were off by factor 10 and when the regulation (Ventilklausel) was applied it was meaningless as it was referenced to previous year with already high immigration. The EU could haved recognized that this kind of population growth might be an issue but no they insist on rattling and fuming. What EU country would accept this kind of immigration? Germany with 800'000 immigrants per year? Don't think so.
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  #490  
Old 03.03.2014, 23:31
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Weird that as many Germans are migrating to this primitive not to be taken seriously country as to the whole rest of the word together. And it's not a new thing. It's been happening for 150 years.
although the number of Germans in Switzerland has roughly doubled in recent years, the aggregate number really isn't that much higher than it was in 1910. and, looking at proportions relative to total population size, there is actually a higher percentage of Swiss living in Germany than vice versa.

this doesn't mean that people did not have perfectly legitimate reasons to vote yes on the initiative, but to suggest that Germans have been flocking to Switzerland for 150 years (when in fact the migration has been highly cyclical and two-way) is more than a little misleading.
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  #491  
Old 03.03.2014, 23:46
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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It is odd that the people who are driving the initiative that there are too many foreigners here are the same people who are bringing in most foreigners; considerably more than the average of 23%. Maybe if the SVPer's who employ such a large %ge stayed with the average then the situation would look different?
If the initiative was against foreigners working and living in Switzerland I would think what you describe above is odd - But since the initiative had nothing to do with ridding Switzerland of it's needed foreign labour, nor with stopping all the needed foreign labour from entering Switzerland, I don't think there is anything odd with "SVPer's" employing as many foreign men and women as they need!
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  #492  
Old 04.03.2014, 00:05
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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If the initiative was against foreigners working and living in Switzerland I would think what you describe above is odd - But since the initiative had nothing to do with ridding Switzerland of it's needed foreign labour, nor with stopping all the needed foreign labour from entering Switzerland, I don't think there is anything odd with "SVPer's" employing as many foreign men and women as they need!
About " I don't think there is anything odd with "SVPer's" employing as many foreign men and women as they need"

So you believe future work permit quota's for foreign workers should only apply to non SVP employers?
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  #493  
Old 04.03.2014, 00:14
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About " I don't think there is anything odd with "SVPer's" employing as many foreign men and women as they need"

So you believe future work permit quota's for foreign workers should only apply to non SVP employers?
Nope - their "need" for staffing should take into account the Swiss unemployed. If there are not enough Swiss to fill the positions, then by all means get what you "need" from wherever you can (so long as your criteria for Swiss staff is not that they accept lower wages than what should be paid - and then since the Swiss job seekers won't accept that low a pay you then claim that there are no Swiss to fill the position and go off to hire foreigners who will accept it!).
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  #494  
Old 04.03.2014, 00:29
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Nope - their "need" for staffing should take into account the Swiss unemployed. If there are not enough Swiss to fill the positions, then by all means get what you "need" from wherever you can (so long as your criteria for Swiss staff is not that they accept lower wages than what should be paid - and then since the Swiss job seekers won't accept that low a pay you then claim that there are no Swiss to fill the position and go off to hire foreigners who will accept it!).
OK for me but I thought you supported the idea of quotas?

You wrote earlier today "The initiative is not against ANY and ALL foreigners/immigrants - it's simply a law which applies the logically sound notion that there is such a thing as too many"

Now you write "by all means get what you "need" from wherever you can".

So now you do not support introducing quotas?
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  #495  
Old 04.03.2014, 00:42
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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although the number of Germans in Switzerland has roughly doubled in recent years, the aggregate number really isn't that much higher than it was in 1910. and, looking at proportions relative to total population size, there is actually a higher percentage of Swiss living in Germany than vice versa.

this doesn't mean that people did not have perfectly legitimate reasons to vote yes on the initiative, but to suggest that Germans have been flocking to Switzerland for 150 years (when in fact the migration has been highly cyclical and two-way) is more than a little misleading.
Just a bit of a historical correction. Switzerland, at least the German speaking majority, between 1890 and 1918 was as pro-German as neither before nor after. THIS chap



was very popular in Switzerland also. Shops in Zürich discussed the option to drop dialect in their shops in favour of High German.

Furtheron, look at the Poetry Book of the schools in the Canton of Zürich. Up to 80% of everything is from German poets. Who created the Swiss national hero ? Friedrich Schiller, a German poet who was advised by his friend, Freiherr Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. Look up the Gesangbuch der Evangelischen Landeskirche --- 90% from Germany.

So that it is a LOVE-HATE relationship.

Even SVP people tell you in regard to the Germans. Jä diä chaibe Schwaabe, hiändda ä chli müesam aber si ghöred halt trotzdem zu üüs

and compare the marches

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_D1mYBBHgM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_ROPyX9rTw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQtHh8OV2GE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlXtnRRfes0

close traditions all over. And do not tell me that the militarists here in CH are out of power. High ranking army officers still have an enormous influence, outside the cities I mean

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  #496  
Old 04.03.2014, 00:47
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Even the Greens in Ticino are different then elsewhere.
Indeed: http://www.theamericanconservative.c...t-immigration/

"One detail that the American media have missed is that one of the unexpected supporters of the anti-immigration bill was the Green Party of Ticino in Switzerland’s only entirely Italian-speaking canton. While the national Green Party opposed the referendum, Ticino’s chapter sponsored a resolution in 2010 requesting the authority to fight the “harmful” effects of what it called “economic colonization.” "

Pretty weird when the Greenies side with the LEGA.

Tom
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  #497  
Old 04.03.2014, 01:04
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Indeed: http://www.theamericanconservative.c...t-immigration/

"One detail that the American media have missed is that one of the unexpected supporters of the anti-immigration bill was the Green Party of Ticino in Switzerland’s only entirely Italian-speaking canton. While the national Green Party opposed the referendum, Ticino’s chapter sponsored a resolution in 2010 requesting the authority to fight the “harmful” effects of what it called “economic colonization.” "

Pretty weird when the Greenies side with the LEGA.

Tom
I've actually been surprised at how little attention the initiative vote is getting in the US press, with all the attention on US immigration issues you would think it would be a much more popular topic (for both sides of the debate here, since both sides could use the rhetoric and result to support their view).
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  #498  
Old 04.03.2014, 01:53
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Sorry , couldn't resist

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Old 04.03.2014, 09:03
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Being non-EU, treated as second class immigrants, I am just an outsider. I am "Neutral" because I lost nothing from last vote nor I am going to win anything. Although quota system will be re-introduced, EU citizen will be the first option than non-EUs.

Actually when Switzerland voted yes it did not surprise me that much. What surprises me is that world conquerers who had their colonies spread all over the world wants to restrict immigration (UK, France ….)

Few phrases heard often these days
- "living without borders" - do they mean among rich countries?
- "against immigration" - against EU immigration most likely is not it? non-EU was always strictly controlled
- "racist Switzerland" - most likely nationalist because rest of EU is pre-dominantly still white and we non-white were/are still discriminated
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Old 04.03.2014, 09:12
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Being non-EU, treated as second class immigrants, I am just an outsider. I am "Neutral" because I lost nothing from last vote nor I am going to win anything. Although quota system will be re-introduced, EU citizen will be the first option than non-EUs.

Actually when Switzerland voted yes it did not surprise me that much. What surprises me is that world conquerers who had their colonies spread all over the world wants to restrict immigration (UK, France ….)

Few phrases heard often these days
- "living without borders" - do they mean among rich countries?
- "against immigration" - against EU immigration most likely is not it? non-EU was always strictly controlled
- "racist Switzerland" - most likely nationalist because rest of EU is pre-dominantly still white and we non-white were/are still discriminated
Yes, but....what about your country? How easy would be for some foreigner to work there? What about free movement ? i am asking because usually, those who are complaining the most are coming from countries which don't even dream to treat other nationalities as "equals" - on the labour market, freedom of movement etc..
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