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  #641  
Old 26.04.2014, 16:12
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Yes, they have the right to do business where it suits them. No problem with that. But they don't walk the walk, they only talk the talk. It was exactly the same with the Minder initiative. Remember the little movie of Economy Swiss? In fact these kind of threats exist since democracy exists. Leaders of the economy threatened to leave Switzerland when we abolished child labour and they said Switzerland is doomed when the working week was reduced to 65 hours. Some decisions actually had a negative impact on the economy and some didn't, but what we got in return was worth it.


The point is that economy can not claim any moral high ground, their only interest is to make money - as long as the risk for them is not too high (that's the reason they try to stay within the law mostly). I couldn't care less what Kühne+Nagel think about democracy. As you said: They don't care about democracy or dictatorship. They want child labour? They want "predictability"? They want Karōshi? Fine. They can have it. But not in Switzerland and I, for one, will not shed any tears over their retreat. Switzerland has an interest to stay attractive for business. But not for all of them and not at any price.
Concerning morals:
The declaration of human rights condemns child labour. And laws against immigration. The two things do not fit in one single discussion or compared together as far as it concerns morals.

Secondly:

If you take football, you will see that talent does not care about nationality, morals, democracy or monarchy. Talent does not distribute evenly and the football club that gets the best talents and that can train the best talents, will win.

Similarly for companies. If they cannot get the people they need, they will relocate where they can do this, they will not care about morals, ethics, direct democracies, because you are putting at stake their ability to compete and therefore survive.

It is not the case that if someone states in a law that gravity should point towards the sky, that suddenly everybody start floating.
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  #642  
Old 26.04.2014, 18:22
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Yes, they have the right to do business where it suits them. No problem with that. But they don't walk the walk, they only talk the talk. It was exactly the same with the Minder initiative. Remember the little movie of Economy Swiss? In fact these kind of threats exist since democracy exists. Leaders of the economy threatened to leave Switzerland when we abolished child labour and they said Switzerland is doomed when the working week was reduced to 65 hours. Some decisions actually had a negative impact on the economy and some didn't, but what we got in return was worth it.


The point is that economy can not claim any moral high ground, their only interest is to make money - as long as the risk for them is not too high (that's the reason they try to stay within the law mostly). I couldn't care less what Kühne+Nagel think about democracy. As you said: They don't care about democracy or dictatorship. They want child labour? They want "predictability"? They want Karōshi? Fine. They can have it. But not in Switzerland and I, for one, will not shed any tears over their retreat. Switzerland has an interest to stay attractive for business. But not for all of them and not at any price.
About "and I, for one, will not shed any tears over their retreat..." Easy for you to say when you do not live in this village and will not see your tax bill shoot up if K&N really do leave?

BTW, did the village vote for the adoption of the mass immigration initiative, or were they like the University Kantons and got caught by the democratic decision of others?
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  #643  
Old 26.04.2014, 19:06
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Concerning morals:
The declaration of human rights condemns child labour. And laws against immigration.
Ah yes the declaration of human rights. That's very romantic and all, but the first laws on child labour in Switzerland pre-date the declaration of human rights by some 70 years and are laws and not a "declaration".

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The two things do not fit in one single discussion or compared together as far as it concerns morals.
Kühne+Nagel find democracy too unpredictable to stay here. If democracy is discussed these two topics fit very well into the same discussion, because they are both laws created through democratic processed and enforced by a state that operates on democratic principles unlike...let's say the UN.

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If they cannot get the people they need, they will relocate where they can do this, they will not care about morals, ethics, direct democracies, because you are putting at stake their ability to compete and therefore survive.
As I already said: It does not bother me when they leave. It bothers me when they start to create some big, threatening scenario to influence the democratic process. If they want to leave, they should leave to whatever economic paradise they see fit.

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About "and I, for one, will not shed any tears over their retreat..." Easy for you to say when you do not live in this village and will not see your tax bill shoot up if K&N really do leave?
I don't?

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BTW, did the village vote for the adoption of the mass immigration initiative, or were they like the University Kantons and got caught by the democratic decision of others?
"The democratic decision of others"? What does that mean? That anybody who is on the losing side of a vote is not bound to the result and can do whatever they like? I don't quite understand how you think a democratic system is supposed to work like that. It was not "the democratic decision of others" it was "the democratic decision".
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  #644  
Old 26.04.2014, 20:30
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Ah yes the declaration of human rights. That's very romantic and all, but the first laws on child labour in Switzerland pre-date the declaration of human rights by some 70 years and are laws and not a "declaration".
As far as I am concerned you still have underage prostitution in place.


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Kühne+Nagel find democracy too unpredictable to stay here. If democracy is discussed these two topics fit very well into the same discussion, because they are both laws created through democratic processed and enforced by a state that operates on democratic principles unlike...let's say the UN.
Look, you can continue repeating "democracy, democracy, democracy, democracy", economy, math and physics will continue their course, whatever democratic decision has been taken in Switzerland.

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As I already said: It does not bother me when they leave. It bothers me when they start to create some big, threatening scenario to influence the democratic process. If they want to leave, they should leave to whatever economic paradise they see fit.
Influencing the democratic process is within the democratic process though. You amongst all should not discuss that influencing the public opinion in whatever way is part of democracy. Information is there, they can state what they think, they can state the consequences and then everybody can vote accordingly.


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"The democratic decision of others"? What does that mean? That anybody who is on the losing side of a vote is not bound to the result and can do whatever they like? I don't quite understand how you think a democratic system is supposed to work like that. It was not "the democratic decision of others" it was "the democratic decision".

I do not even want to count how many times the word democracy was used without considering Condorcet Paradox and Arrow Theorem:

https://www.academia.edu/3474379/Imp...ratic_outcomes

A democratic system to be democratic is supposed to keep doing tradeoffs.
You do not have a real democracy as no one else does.
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  #645  
Old 26.04.2014, 22:42
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Nice hopes you have:

The reality is that if in a survey between February and April, 6% has already decided to invest less, the derivative is negative and the 94% is pure fantasy.
94% is what results if you deduct 6% from 100%

February and April are the two months which came after the outcome of the referendum. I expect competent managers to at least make some decisions after such a vital thing.
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  #646  
Old 26.04.2014, 23:00
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Yes, they have the right to do business where it suits them. No problem with that. But they don't walk the walk, they only talk the talk. It was exactly the same with the Minder initiative. Remember the little movie of Economy Swiss? In fact these kind of threats exist since democracy exists. Leaders of the economy threatened to leave Switzerland when we abolished child labour and they said Switzerland is doomed when the working week was reduced to 65 hours. Some decisions actually had a negative impact on the economy and some didn't, but what we got in return was worth it.


The point is that economy can not claim any moral high ground, their only interest is to make money - as long as the risk for them is not too high (that's the reason they try to stay within the law mostly). I couldn't care less what Kühne+Nagel think about democracy. As you said: They don't care about democracy or dictatorship. They want child labour? They want "predictability"? They want Karōshi? Fine. They can have it. But not in Switzerland and I, for one, will not shed any tears over their retreat. Switzerland has an interest to stay attractive for business. But not for all of them and not at any price.
The KüHNE FAMILY chose Schindellegi as their HQ and residence, clearly due to advantages about taxes. But to all appearances, the KüHNE folks still are Germans at heart.

Add to this that Kühne&Nagel was and is a GERMAN company . The importance of Switzerland for K&N worldwide is really marginal and of minimal importance. In other words, Mr Kühne to me is simply another snobberia-class liar
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  #647  
Old 26.04.2014, 23:26
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Concerning morals:
The declaration of human rights condemns child labour. And laws against immigration. The two things do not fit in one single discussion or compared together as far as it concerns morals.

Secondly:

If you take football, you will see that talent does not care about nationality, morals, democracy or monarchy. Talent does not distribute evenly and the football club that gets the best talents and that can train the best talents, will win.

Similarly for companies. If they cannot get the people they need, they will relocate where they can do this, they will not care about morals, ethics, direct democracies, because you are putting at stake their ability to compete and therefore survive.

It is not the case that if someone states in a law that gravity should point towards the sky, that suddenly everybody start floating.
Companies SHOULD go to where they can get the labour force needed but often try simply to IMPORT the labour force needed. The economy-leaders now have to do what they should have done long ago, and that is to move parts of their activities to places abroad.

You may say that France, which has been leading in this aspect has lots of problems. But exactly this is not one of those problems. Quite the other way round, their problem are antiquated structures which for ages were supported by politics.

Look at Northern France, England, NE-USA, the heartlands of industrialisation. A RUST BELT ranging from Metz and Reims over to Detroilt and Minneapolis/StPaul, with antiquated structures and outdated ideas.

Look at the matter in a more global and more longterm context. Since 1945, lots of people moved from the Med to Northwest Europe. The unfriendly climate overhere caused billions of US$, EUR, CHF in heating costs. For example, more than 30 mio people from the Arab countries migrated into Western Europe. Right, you may point to the fact that realities and laws in Algeria and Egypt were not exactly encouraging for European investors. But things are gradually changing, and exactly the French are leading in this. Sure, Messrs Fabius, Sarkozy, Hollande, etc still are RUSTBELT thinkers, but their younger folks are up to the times we face now.

Look at the Swedish-German writer Sven Hedin who already before WW-TWO wrote his famous book ASIEN MARSCHIERT where he prophesied the emergence of East Asia as a true factor of the world economy

You try to be modern, but lots of your argumentation reveals the philosophy of Cecil Rhodes and THE BURDEN OF THE WHITE MAN --- a philosophy still happily in the mind of many overhere

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About "and I, for one, will not shed any tears over their retreat..." Easy for you to say when you do not live in this village and will not see your tax bill shoot up if K&N really do leave?

BTW, did the village vote for the adoption of the mass immigration initiative, or were they like the University Kantons and got caught by the democratic decision of others?

Exactly THIS of course is what makes Mr KüHNE angry. To see that the Canton he chose wishes him to hell. To see that exactly the folks of the CANTON OF CHOICE of his famiily have turned against them right now. Yes I can well understand his anger and frustration. Had the KüHNE moved to Richterswil, they would have to do with the same outcome but would at least have had the satisfaction that their Canton voted THEIR way

************************************************** *************************

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  #648  
Old 27.04.2014, 10:08
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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BTW, did the village vote for the adoption of the mass immigration initiative, or were they like the University Kantons and got caught by the democratic decision of others?
The village voted in favor of the MEI.

My own take, based on talk I have heard around the village, is that many voted 'symbolically' to send a message to Bern to get tough on those other foreigners, you know, those bad foreigners we read about in the papers commiting crimes in the big cities and abusing social welfare. Not our neighbors, our good foreigners, oh no we don't mean you...

And now the other shoe is poised to drop.

Interesting times ahead...
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  #649  
Old 27.04.2014, 13:48
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

There's no other foreigners if you make a law relating to plain and simply foreigners.

You can't teach people to get out of their apathy, be it police or city councils acting upon people behaving in an uncivil way. Or parents or teachers leaving it upon kids to sort troubles they should be strictly instructed to act upon.

Or mobbing at a work place being firmly zapped. Legally. And reported. Bad things happen, stats being honest help solve the troubles.

Indifference is cheap and energy saving.

Sometimes it bites one in one's butt.

Interesting times ahead indeed.
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  #650  
Old 27.04.2014, 15:16
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There's no other foreigners if you make a law relating to plain and simply foreigners.
Right, but somebody really should tell the voters. A fair share has clearly no idea laws don't make a difference between the foreigners they like and the ones they don't like. How can they know if nobody tell them?

Not thinking about any particularly country here, any one would do.
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Old 27.04.2014, 15:23
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Right, but somebody really should tell the voters. A fair share has clearly no idea laws don't make a difference between the foreigners they like and the ones they don't like. How can they know if nobody tell them?

Not thinking about any particularly country here, any one would do.
Yeah, some needed to stamp them foreigners with David's stars.

It seems to me, I would love to be wrong, that having cash and comfort available, has a negative effect on the ability to think critically for oneself. Loss of aspiration on quality of data available to us. Having the possibility to choose, if one has no idea about consequences, brings any problems down to the level of chosing a bubble gum flavor. The push to "banaliser" quite serious things.
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Old 27.04.2014, 16:31
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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There's no other foreigners if you make a law relating to plain and simply foreigners.

You can't teach people to get out of their apathy, be it police or city councils acting upon people behaving in an uncivil way. Or parents or teachers leaving it upon kids to sort troubles they should be strictly instructed to act upon.

Or mobbing at a work place being firmly zapped. Legally. And reported. Bad things happen, stats being honest help solve the troubles.

Indifference is cheap and energy saving.

Sometimes it bites one in one's butt.

Interesting times ahead indeed.
I'm struggling to work out how this opinion relates to the thread title

Are you insinuating that it's just the foreigners that are apathetic, behave uncivilly and are responsible for troubled kids and mobbing in the workplace?

How can just the foreigners be indifferent? Surely it stretches across humanity in general. It also has little to do with the result of the vote on relations with the EU, too?

It's difficult to classify foreigners in one bag, I would say. Especially here in Switzerland where there are "foreigners" who were born here, native people that were born and grew up abroad then came back to Switzerland as virtual foreigners. Swiss who have married foreigners who have gone on to become Swiss, and so on and so forth.

A block description of "foreigner" is just too much of a generalisation in a country where someone from the next valley, who might be speaking a different dialect and/or language, is viewed as "fremd" here.

Up till now I followed the logic of the thread but this post has gone a bit random.
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  #653  
Old 27.04.2014, 18:48
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I'm struggling to work out how this opinion relates to the thread title

Are you insinuating that it's just the foreigners that are apathetic, behave uncivilly and are responsible for troubled kids and mobbing in the workplace?

How can just the foreigners be indifferent? Surely it stretches across humanity in general. It also has little to do with the result of the vote on relations with the EU, too?

It's difficult to classify foreigners in one bag, I would say. Especially here in Switzerland where there are "foreigners" who were born here, native people that were born and grew up abroad then came back to Switzerland as virtual foreigners. Swiss who have married foreigners who have gone on to become Swiss, and so on and so forth.

A block description of "foreigner" is just too much of a generalisation in a country where someone from the next valley, who might be speaking a different dialect and/or language, is viewed as "fremd" here.

Up till now I followed the logic of the thread but this post has gone a bit random.
You are getting the sense of what he says completely twisted the way around. He is quite ironic, modulate with irony and you will understand what he says.
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Old 27.04.2014, 19:13
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You are getting the sense of what he says completely twisted the way around. He is quite ironic, modulate with irony and you will understand what he says.
MusicChick is not a he, just FYI.
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Old 27.04.2014, 19:24
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MusicChick is not a he, just FYI.
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Old 27.04.2014, 19:37
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Look at Northern France, England, NE-USA, the heartlands of industrialisation. A RUST BELT ranging from Metz and Reims over to Detroilt and Minneapolis/StPaul, with antiquated structures and outdated ideas.
Umm, Detroilt and Minneapolis/StPaul are most definitely NOT NE-USA.

Rather, they are the upper mid-west.

NE is where all the high-tech firms are.

Tom
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Old 27.04.2014, 20:41
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There's no other foreigners if you make a law relating to plain and simply foreigners.

You can't teach people to get out of their apathy, be it police or city councils acting upon people behaving in an uncivil way. Or parents or teachers leaving it upon kids to sort troubles they should be strictly instructed to act upon.

Or mobbing at a work place being firmly zapped. Legally. And reported. Bad things happen, stats being honest help solve the troubles.

Indifference is cheap and energy saving.

Sometimes it bites one in one's butt.

Interesting times ahead indeed.
The SVP rethorics was and is that Switzerland had to take back its control about GOOD and BAD foreigners, and the number of foreigners

Nothing at all about plain + simply but everything about numbers and good+bad, plus all the other usual rubbish.

Interesting is to see, that a good part of the YES voters are clearly in favour of the Bilaterals. Sure, many of them realize that Micheline Calmy-Rey also only needs 50,5% to succeed.
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Old 27.04.2014, 20:48
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Umm, Detroilt and Minneapolis/StPaul are most definitely NOT NE-USA.

Rather, they are the upper mid-west.

NE is where all the high-tech firms are.

Tom
The Mississippi-Mississippi-Line is the division line between East and West in the USA, at least in the North. In the South, it is the Potomac Line. So that everything east of the Upper-Mississippi is North-East USA

High-Tech also is at home around Minneapolis/StPaul, Chicago, Indianapolis etc. Seen out from Texas, everything north and east of the Missouri-Mississippi-Missouri-Line is EAST which in their language means thoooose Yankeeees
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Old 27.04.2014, 20:51
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Right, but somebody really should tell the voters. A fair share has clearly no idea laws don't make a difference between the foreigners they like and the ones they don't like. How can they know if nobody tell them?

Not thinking about any particularly country here, any one would do.
It WAS done, but those who were against had to appeal to the brains of people, while the SVP appealed to the lower parts of the body
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Old 27.04.2014, 21:19
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You are getting the sense of what he says completely twisted the way around. He is quite ironic, modulate with irony and you will understand what he says.
Ahh, irony. That poor misused and abused word

My point was that the word "foreigner" is not an easy word to meaningfully bandy about in such general terms anymore, especially in Switzerland, and that the post did not really relate to the repercussions of the vote.
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erasmus, european union, fmop, horizon, immigration, masseneinwanderung, vote




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