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  #681  
Old 30.04.2014, 00:03
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Where childhood ends and adulthood starts and what that means is, within certain limits, a question of culture, politics and the Zeitgeist.
But that's the nice thing about declarations, one does not have to take care of such details as as long as you have neither intent nor measure to implement it.

The US (did not ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child at all), the UK ("the use of physical punishment is a matter for individual parents to decide") and Switzrerland are still allowed to take part in all parts of the UN without having to fear any consequences.


I have had and still have my fair share of involvement in the fields of mathematics, physics and economy. Naming them in one sentence is very brave .

But you missed the point: I don't want the economic laws to be anulled or ignored. I want you to understand that the economic growth is not the most important thing in the world. It's not even in the top 5. I am not saying it is unimportant. I am saying that we have often democratically decided to do something that is bad for economy and no one in their right mind would want to go back and reintroduce child labour or the 65 hour week (and even this was an improvement!).


I won't prevent anyone from excersising their rights, but I won't be sad when they leave and I will exercise my freedom of speech as well: It is highly questionable if companies are threatening to leave the country because democracy is too "unpredictable". And if they do, it might be better that they leave.
Look:

I shorten down your reasoning.

You talk about Zeitgeist. So you state that morals are relative.

And you also state that the declarations have no value. Unfortunately, they are the only reference for "morals" that have been attempted so far, so if you state they have no value, any discussion on morals becomes more or less inconsistent.

But anyway:

Then you talk about child labour. By comparison: Child labour was wrong as it is freedom of movement.

Against which morals? You have previously killed in the argumentation any reference point.

Since for me the discussion about morals have no sense if no reference point is taken, then I tend to bring the discussion on things that are more quantitative:

There is a guy/girl that needs to survive. To survive he/she needs an engineer that has a certain formation in a certain university. He/she cannot get that guy because there is the government that is pushing to get a Swiss person, so he/she cannot survive. End of game unless he/she delocalizes, get the guy and survive, full stop. Survival vs Democracy. There is no democracy without survival. Hinc sunt lupi.


On another note: what is exactly "moral" in giving the job to a guy based on nationality? Nationality does not define the capability of a person of doing a job, nationality defines a place where someone is born, with a certain cultural background. The ability to perform a job is only defined by how much a person has spent time in kicking his/her own ass in the attempt to improve him/herself. If the system is not anymore based on merit, but on nationalistic ideas, you are trashing the system capability to compete and at the same time you are rendering useless any effort a human being may do to improve himself/herself an his/her environment, at the local and medium scale.
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  #682  
Old 30.04.2014, 00:08
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

A country exists to serve it's citizens, otherwise it has no purpose.

Therefore, prime importance is to find employment for said citizens.

What don't you get?

Tom
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  #683  
Old 30.04.2014, 00:10
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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A country exists to serve its citizens, otherwise it has no purpose.
This is how we know you never voted Kennedy.
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  #684  
Old 30.04.2014, 00:15
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This is how we know you never voted Kennedy.
Alas, I was too young.

But no, I never would have.

I did vote for Reagan and Clinton, though.

Tom
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  #685  
Old 30.04.2014, 00:19
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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A country exists to serve it's citizens, otherwise it has no purpose.

Therefore, prime importance is to find employment for said citizens.

What don't you get?

Tom
What is not clear of:

Switzerland has the smallest unemployment rate amongst the industrialized countries.

It seems that the strategy of the state was optimal.
When you change something that was optimal, it can only become suboptimal.

I have a tendency to remember things, let's see what it will be the unemployment rate in 3 years and then in 5 years.
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  #686  
Old 30.04.2014, 00:39
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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What is not clear of:
Had you lived here before the idiots voted in favor of the FMOP, you'd understand.

Tom
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  #687  
Old 30.04.2014, 01:12
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Had you lived here before the idiots voted in favor of the FMOP, you'd understand.

Tom
Ok, I suppose this has to be asked then:

what changed with FMOP exactly?

S.
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  #688  
Old 30.04.2014, 01:19
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=population+Swiss
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=population+Italy
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=population+France
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=population+Uk

The trends do not seem that different frankly.
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  #689  
Old 30.04.2014, 08:59
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Had you lived here before the idiots voted in favor of the FMOP, you'd understand.

Tom
While you and Mr Barroso have to understand that the initiative does not ask for the FMOP to be cancelled but to be amended. As the FMOP combined with Schengen/Dublin replaced a completely ineffecient and useless border-control-regime. The FMOP allows CH-citizens to have residence freely across the border. YES, it HAS to do with this
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  #690  
Old 30.04.2014, 09:21
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Ok, I suppose this has to be asked then:

what changed with FMOP exactly?

S.
Traffic.

Tom
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  #691  
Old 30.04.2014, 09:44
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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You talk about Zeitgeist. So you state that morals are relative.
Correct.

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And you also state that the declarations have no value.
I wouldn't go that far. I see the reasoning behind them, but it's not the same as the law.

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Unfortunately, they are the only reference for "morals" that have been attempted so far, so if you state they have no value, any discussion on morals becomes more or less inconsistent.
They are the only reference for "morals" that have been attempted so far? Maybe the only one that is of value for you.

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But anyway:

Then you talk about child labour. By comparison: Child labour was wrong as it is freedom of movement.

Against which morals? You have previously killed in the argumentation any reference point.
Here comes your favourite word: democracy

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Since for me the discussion about morals have no sense if no reference point is taken, then I tend to bring the discussion on things that are more quantitative:

There is a guy/girl that needs to survive. To survive he/she needs an engineer that has a certain formation in a certain university. He/she cannot get that guy because there is the government that is pushing to get a Swiss person, so he/she cannot survive. End of game unless he/she delocalizes, get the guy and survive, full stop. Survival vs Democracy. There is no democracy without survival. Hinc sunt lupi.
It could also be the other way around. Engineer cannot immigrate to Switzerland, is not overrun by a car and wipes out hunger in the world.

You may pick one :
  • Atqui, e lotio est.
  • Libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
  • Auctoritas non veritas facit legem.
  • Post prandium stabis, post coenam ambulabis.
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On another note: what is exactly "moral" in giving the job to a guy based on nationality?
It does not need to be a guy. Could be a woman too.

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Nationality does not define the capability of a person of doing a job, nationality defines a place where someone is born, with a certain cultural background.
In Switzerland citizenship is inherited from the parents, with our without cultural background.

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The ability to perform a job is only defined by how much a person has spent time in kicking his/her own ass in the attempt to improve him/herself.

If the system is not anymore based on merit, but on nationalistic ideas, you are trashing the system capability to compete and at the same time you are rendering useless any effort a human being may do to improve himself/herself an his/her environment, at the local and medium scale.
Only the most enthusiastic believers in the god of the invisible hand would say that the free market is only based on merit. The free market is good and nice within certain limits, but I am a liberal not a libertarian. Maybe you are. Maybe you don't like the idea of countries and sovereign states at all. That is your good right (granted by the state). But apparently the sovereign decided otherwise, no matter how much you or I might disagree (which I do).
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  #692  
Old 30.04.2014, 11:27
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Traffic.

Tom
Which implies a lot of business is going on.

So what?
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  #693  
Old 30.04.2014, 12:19
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Correct.


I wouldn't go that far. I see the reasoning behind them, but it's not the same as the law.


They are the only reference for "morals" that have been attempted so far? Maybe the only one that is of value for you.


Here comes your favourite word: democracy


It could also be the other way around. Engineer cannot immigrate to Switzerland, is not overrun by a car and wipes out hunger in the world.

You may pick one :
  • Atqui, e lotio est.
  • Libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
  • Auctoritas non veritas facit legem.
  • Post prandium stabis, post coenam ambulabis.

It does not need to be a guy. Could be a woman too.


In Switzerland citizenship is inherited from the parents, with our without cultural background.


Only the most enthusiastic believers in the god of the invisible hand would say that the free market is only based on merit. The free market is good and nice within certain limits, but I am a liberal not a libertarian. Maybe you are. Maybe you don't like the idea of countries and sovereign states at all. That is your good right (granted by the state). But apparently the sovereign decided otherwise, no matter how much you or I might disagree (which I do).

It is getting circular, I will keep it short:

Morals are supposed to be absolute truth that are defined on the basis of what is good for humanity, in a very absolute way. Child labour is not good. Everybody should have access to an education. Everybody should have the right of an opinion. And many other things.

Democracy is not a stable system, even from a mathematical perspective, you cannot define morals on democracy. Not solely on that. If they change continuously, they are not moral statements.

In the second place, irony wants that I was considering those attempt of defining a moral for humanity that used a democratic process to deal with the definition of the ideas that should be at the basis of the definition. It is like you are saying that the democratic system of Switzerland defines already all the morals, and I find it an exceptionally inaccurate statement even in contradiction with the idea of democracy that you want to push.

If the EU decides unanimously that everything that gets in an out of Switzerland should be taxed 90%, that is not right, it is still a democratic process, even unanimous, but I am sure you people will not be ready to accept this. It would be democratically decided, we agree, morally speaking it would be like bullying a population.

Doing reasonable tradeoffs makes always sense, maybe we should focus on this rather than talking about democracy and morals.
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  #694  
Old 30.04.2014, 12:40
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

and it seem to me:

http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/6565...dee360051609|0

That someone is doing trade offs in a quite nice way.

(it speaks about the non discrimination of Croatia)
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  #695  
Old 30.04.2014, 12:45
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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So what?
It inconveniences the locals, enough so that they overwhelmingly voted YES.

Tom
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  #696  
Old 30.04.2014, 13:03
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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It inconveniences the locals, enough so that they overwhelmingly voted YES.

Tom
It is a problem of morals... no actually of inconvenience... well, really, it is mostly a problem of traffic.

I decided to pick none of the above, I picked :

Q.E.D.: Quod erat demonstrandum.
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  #697  
Old 30.04.2014, 13:58
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Seems the EU have accepted the Swiss approach to the Kroatia issue; well done Bundesrat. Hopefully we can now move forward in a positive way
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  #698  
Old 30.04.2014, 16:13
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Actually, what it astonishes me, is that everybody knows that the economic crisis was caused by bad banking, but still a large part of the population got its hate on immigrants.

:
Some of the bankers were immigrants too. Oder?
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Old 30.04.2014, 16:15
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It will not be bad for the economy, as immigration is still possible, even if more regulated and more complicated. It is NOT an immigration stop .... even SVP leaders need immigrants
Yes, where else will the next Blocher come from?
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Old 30.04.2014, 16:20
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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A country exists to serve it's citizens, otherwise it has no purpose.

Therefore, prime importance is to find employment for said citizens.

What don't you get?

Tom
I'd say a state exists to serve its citizens. A country and a state are subtly different things. I don't actually know what purpose a country serves other than for soccer hooligans to have an enemy.
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