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  #701  
Old 30.04.2014, 16:30
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Yes, where else will the next Blocher come from?
I think that EF might give us a clue...
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  #702  
Old 01.05.2014, 00:20
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Seems the EU have accepted the Swiss approach to the Kroatia issue; well done Bundesrat. Hopefully we can now move forward in a positive way
Hats off to Croatia!!!!!

They got recognition of qualifications!!! and quite a generous quota.

Later in the game, but the best deals so far. Could they lend their politicians to less fortunate Europeans?

Really, I'm happy for you guys. Gives us all a lil' hope. Thanks.
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  #703  
Old 01.05.2014, 00:34
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Could they lend their politicians to less fortunate Europeans?
it's timing and history.
Timing because Switzerland needs to show Europeans more than good will and. History because Switzerland was, like Germany, almost a backyard of Croatia during the Balkan wars. Nothing personal, sorry for the credit some politicians would love to claim for themselves...
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  #704  
Old 01.05.2014, 01:43
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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it's timing and history.
Timing because Switzerland needs to show Europeans more than good will and. History because Switzerland was, like Germany, almost a backyard of Croatia during the Balkan wars. Nothing personal, sorry for the credit some politicians would love to claim for themselves...
So ist das Leben.
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  #705  
Old 01.05.2014, 06:54
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Hats off to Croatia!!!!!

They got recognition of qualifications!!! and quite a generous quota.

Later in the game, but the best deals so far. Could they lend their politicians to less fortunate Europeans?

Really, I'm happy for you guys. Gives us all a lil' hope. Thanks.
Switzerland (just s Germany) defacto supported Croatia in its worst hours, and NOW the Croations help Switzerland out of shit. I strongly believe that the large Croation community in Switzerland did play a role in a way, be it directly or INdirectly

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it's timing and history.
Timing because Switzerland needs to show Europeans more than good will and. History because Switzerland was, like Germany, almost a backyard of Croatia during the Balkan wars. Nothing personal, sorry for the credit some politicians would love to claim for themselves...
Sure, the many Croatians in Switzerland (and Germany) played some role. And many a Croation who was overhere in the Balkan War times, now is in Croatia

This is what SEILSCHAFTEN are all about

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  #706  
Old 01.05.2014, 08:12
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Switzerland (just s Germany) defacto supported Croatia in its worst hours, and NOW the Croations help Switzerland out of shit. *
Well, in the end why not admit that some politicians are better than others, and my admiration goes to the ones who fight a bit for their country and their citizens and don't accept their compatriots being treated as second class something. In my view, these things are not significantly influenced by any large community abroad (if so, Turkey would have been long ago part of E.U. if you understand what I mean)
It's also the size of the country, usually there are not massive restrictions on smaller ones. Take Cyprus or Malta .
All in all, well done and good for them! I hope others too will wake up in this century....
You can't tacitly allow people to immigrate or move from a country you represent, but not lift a finger for your citizens abroad....and no, E.U. (no-one else) doesn't have any interest to have these things sorted out.
Reality is people do want to move around (and wanted to so for a longer time than EU and freedom of movement), look for better opportunities (work, studies), temporary only in many cases. Look at the Portuguese, Greeks, Italians, Spaniards. So it shouldn't be pointed a finger only at the poorer E.U. members. It completely irritates me when I hear BS like poverty immigration and stuff like that because it is only used in certain contexts, and if those who use it would have honest intentions and not just to gather some votes, they could use same metaphors to accurately describe lots of demographics.
Anyway, elections are dirty business today. It's sad, grotesque and even hilarious sometimes.

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  #707  
Old 01.05.2014, 10:10
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Well, in the end why not admit that some politicians are better than others, and my admiration goes to the ones who fight a bit for their country and their citizens and don't accept their compatriots being treated as second class something. In my view, these things are not significantly influenced by any large community abroad (if so, Turkey would have been long ago part of E.U. if you understand what I mean)
It's also the size of the country, usually there are not massive restrictions on smaller ones. Take Cyprus or Malta .
All in all, well done and good for them! I hope others too will wake up in this century....
You can't tacitly allow people to immigrate or move from a country you represent, but not lift a finger for your citizens abroad....and no, E.U. (no-one else) doesn't have any interest to have these things sorted out.
Reality is people do want to move around (and wanted to so for a longer time than EU and freedom of movement), look for better opportunities (work, studies), temporary only in many cases. Look at the Portuguese, Greeks, Italians, Spaniards. So it shouldn't be pointed a finger only at the poorer E.U. members. It completely irritates me when I hear BS like poverty immigration and stuff like that because it is only used in certain contexts, and if those who use it would have honest intentions and not just to gather some votes, they could use same metaphors to accurately describe lots of demographics.
Anyway, elections are dirty business today. It's sad, grotesque and even hilarious sometimes.
Turkey ? Turkey is a giant and would on entry-day be the LARGEST country in the EU. That Mr Erdogan on visit to Germany displayed the charm of an army tank is the other side. And the unsolved Kurdistan matter is a bad aspect. Add to this that a good part of Turkish industry is against joining the EU

Italy ? a long while has passed since the 1950ies and 60ies, when Italians (AND Ticinesi and whomever looked like a "Tschingg") were treated as second class. The Italian community in Switzerland always played a role. At least five CH-residents are members of the Italian parliament. And members of the central governments of both sides often do not meet in Rome or Bern but in Milano, Lugano and Zurigo

Croatia/Slovenia/Kosovo/Macedonia ? many a member of the governments there for years lived overhere. and when a problem erupts, tells his colleagues "I have to talk per phone with Peter who knows .... and then we'll see further"
Example: The Prime Minister of Kosovo is a former student of ZH University

Russia ? Mr Burkhalter is a personal friend of Russia Foreign Minister Lavrov. That he is married with an Austrian, is from a Neuchâtelois-Emmental/BE background certainly helps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Burkhalter
And as you can see here
http://www.puure-huus.ch/archiv/Bull...Lebenslauf.pdf
he was in Britain several times for language courses, and certainly made acquaintances with many people --- personal links are very important
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  #708  
Old 01.05.2014, 13:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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What is not clear of:

Switzerland has the smallest unemployment rate amongst the industrialized countries.

It seems that the strategy of the state was optimal.
When you change something that was optimal, it can only become suboptimal.
Yes, because Switzerland is a system that has as single goal: to minimise the unemployment rate....



You are referencing mathematics and physics in every post and then you come up with such statements .

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It is getting circular, I will keep it short:
It can't take much longer any more. Either you will finally get the point or I will get bored and we can stop iterating

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Morals are supposed to be absolute truth that are defined on the basis of what is good for humanity, in a very absolute way. Child labour is not good. Everybody should have access to an education. Everybody should have the right of an opinion. And many other things.

Democracy is not a stable system, even from a mathematical perspective, you cannot define morals on democracy. Not solely on that. If they change continuously, they are not moral statements.
Here comes the "mathematical perspective" again...

I thought we agreed that morals are relative? You said I removed the reference system. Why do you reintroduce it? You believe that these standards should be universal and I actually agree, but that is just our opinion. That does not mean that they are universal and that anyone has to agree with that or that the state as a whole has to be built on them.

You are saying that democracy cannot define morals. What else then? Because there are many, completely incompatible interpretations of what is good and what is bad. You are always implying that the whole democratic system should be based on morals. But how to define them? And are they universal? Everyone of us can have his or her own interpretation of what is universal truth. In the end democracy will negotiate a compromise out of it. That is the system. If you find a better one, the world is eager to hear about it.

People will chose their laws based on their own ideas of good and wrong from case to case and with different results depending on the Zeitgeist. I just don't see an advantage in having a small circle of people doing that for everyone else.

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In the second place, irony wants that I was considering those attempt of defining a moral for humanity that used a democratic process to deal with the definition of the ideas that should be at the basis of the definition. It is like you are saying that the democratic system of Switzerland defines already all the morals, and I find it an exceptionally inaccurate statement even in contradiction with the idea of democracy that you want to push.

If the EU decides unanimously that everything that gets in an out of Switzerland should be taxed 90%, that is not right, it is still a democratic process, even unanimous, but I am sure you people will not be ready to accept this. It would be democratically decided, we agree, morally speaking it would be like bullying a population.
If it was decided democratically what would your morals do against that? They could even easily invade Switzerland. If they EU did that, what is the value of having it written down on some paper that they are bad, bad people if there are no consequences? Switzerland defends its interest as good as possible and with the instruments it has available. What is good for Switzerland is decided based on a constitutional system, controlled by democracy. Not more and not less than that.

Good, bad. Just or unjust. I leave that to the Popes, the Dalai Lamas and other philosophers and moral authorities to discuss. Outside of actual law making this has mostly entertainment value.

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Doing reasonable tradeoffs makes always sense, maybe we should focus on this rather than talking about democracy and morals.
That's what democracy is for.
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  #709  
Old 01.05.2014, 14:35
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Yes, because Switzerland is a system that has as single goal: to minimise the unemployment rate....



You are referencing mathematics and physics in every post and then you come up with such statements .


It can't take much longer any more. Either you will finally get the point or I will get bored and we can stop iterating


Here comes the "mathematical perspective" again...

I thought we agreed that morals are relative? You said I removed the reference system. Why do you reintroduce it? You believe that these standards should be universal and I actually agree, but that is just our opinion. That does not mean that they are universal and that anyone has to agree with that or that the state as a whole has to be built on them.

You are saying that democracy cannot define morals. What else then? Because there are many, completely incompatible interpretations of what is good and what is bad. You are always implying that the whole democratic system should be based on morals. But how to define them? And are they universal? Everyone of us can have his or her own interpretation of what is universal truth. In the end democracy will negotiate a compromise out of it. That is the system. If you find a better one, the world is eager to hear about it.

People will chose their laws based on their own ideas of good and wrong from case to case and with different results depending on the Zeitgeist. I just don't see an advantage in having a small circle of people doing that for everyone else.


If it was decided democratically what would your morals do against that? They could even easily invade Switzerland. If they EU did that, what is the value of having it written down on some paper that they are bad, bad people if there are no consequences? Switzerland defends its interest as good as possible and with the instruments it has available. What is good for Switzerland is decided based on a constitutional system, controlled by democracy. Not more and not less than that.

Good, bad. Just or unjust. I leave that to the Popes, the Dalai Lamas and other philosophers and moral authorities to discuss. Outside of actual law making this has mostly entertainment value.


That's what democracy is for.
Well apparently the goal of Switzerland democracy is mainly to minimize traffic.

For the rest, I am really tired of the argument, it got very long again, the reality is that Switzerland got to pay about 50 million euro for the enlargement of th EU, and that now it got the possibility... to negotiate about the possibility of continuing to do things that were granted before for problems that did not even exist.
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  #710  
Old 01.05.2014, 14:50
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Well apparently the goal of Switzerland democracy is mainly to minimize traffic.
Only in Ticino. You don't read St2lmans' messages, do you?
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  #711  
Old 01.05.2014, 17:40
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Well apparently the goal of Switzerland democracy is mainly to minimize traffic.
How well a society works can not be expressed with one number.

Well, as Faltrad said, except in Ticino

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For the rest, I am really tired of the argument, it got very long again, the reality is that Switzerland got to pay about 50 million euro for the enlargement of th EU, and that now it got the possibility... to negotiate about the possibility of continuing to do things that were granted before for problems that did not even exist.
No, this is just an interim solution. Also to do justice to Croatia who should not be discriminated. Money we would have had to pay anyway. That things are not granted and you have to renegotiate stuff if you decide to change something unilaterally couldn't be more obvious.
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  #712  
Old 01.05.2014, 17:53
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Well apparently the goal of Switzerland democracy is mainly to minimize traffic.
Traffic is not the real problem (though the loss of quality of life because of it certainly is), but a symptom.

The problem is that the infrastructure cannot handle the excessive amount of frontaliers that FMOP has caused, and will take decades to fix.

Until then, the number of frontaliers should be limited to what the infrastructure can handle.

THAT is the problem.

QED

Tom
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Old 01.05.2014, 18:26
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

On a serious side note:

Regulating salary dumping, that is creating this big problem in Ticino because a bad salary in Switzerland is still a good one in Italy, rather than FMOP,
is much easier than to create an issue with every single country in the same continent.

Look, I said it before, if salary dumping was not regulated, I have reason to believe that unreported employment aren't also, due to unfortunate correlation between the two things.

You move the bar, on immigration, but.. yo... unreported employment will skyrocket, if no one was checking before, no one will check after.

I do not see a solved problem, I see it getting worse, quite frankly.

Who is to be hit: immigrant looking for a job, or the guy that accepts to take an immigrant on a bad salary because he has no ethics.... well..... if you are not taking care of the source of the problem, it will create further problems.
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Old 02.05.2014, 05:11
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Traffic is not the real problem (though the loss of quality of life because of it certainly is), but a symptom.

The problem is that the infrastructure cannot handle the excessive amount of frontaliers that FMOP has caused, and will take decades to fix.

Until then, the number of frontaliers should be limited to what the infrastructure can handle.

THAT is the problem.

QED

Tom
This is just a PART. Look at public transport. If you want to commute between Konstanz or Singen or Waldshut on one side and Zürich on the other, no problem. But if you want to get from Lugano Stazione to Varese or MXP-Malpensa etc etc etc it simply is shit. Many Germans place their cars somwhere between the border and "Zürich-Nord" and jump onto the S-Bahn. Ticino and Lombardia, exactly in the sector in question, are infuriating and frustrating

I know, many Ticinesi say that all this is caused by the low regard given to TI by CH in general. This is true in many ways but more action from the TI people might be required
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Old 02.05.2014, 10:30
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This is just a PART. Look at public transport. If you want to commute between Konstanz or Singen or Waldshut on one side and Zürich on the other, no problem.
Cross-border public transport is generally pretty poor. Look at Basel for example. Several of the S-Bahn lines from Germany stop at Badischer Bahnhof rather than going through to Basel SBB. In the past this was justified by the Rhine bridge having only two tracks. Now it has been widened to four but those additional tracks are used exclusively for freight trains and there is still no improvment in the passenger train situation.

This situation repeats itself at virtually every border crossing. Both Sankt Margrethen and Bregenz get plenty of S-Bahn trains, but the link between the two is sporadic and if you're unlucky you can wait for an hour.

Or go to Geneva. When the new lightweight trains were introduced back in the 1990s, they proudly announced that rather than finishing at La Plaine they would go into France as far as Bellegarde. Only a handful ever did and this service was also reduced over the years.

Or how about Ponte Tresa. There has been talk for donkey's years of extended the narrow gauge railway into Italy by building a tunnel. Both sides seem to be in broad agreement that this is necessary. But does anything ever get done?

I guess the reason is that to make public transport across borders work, both sides have to fully back the project, not just with talk but also with money. And that's not happening.
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  #716  
Old 02.05.2014, 11:34
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I know, many Ticinesi say that all this is caused by the low regard given to TI by CH in general. This is true in many ways but more action from the TI people might be required
And the Italians.

The TiLo no-longer goes to Italy, but rather just to the border, as the Italians couldn't keep their part running on time .

Tom

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  #717  
Old 02.05.2014, 15:58
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Morals are supposed to be absolute truth that are defined on the basis of what is good for humanity, in a very absolute way.
every single one of history's great injustices derives from the premise you have written above. very, very dangerous thinking.
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Old 02.05.2014, 18:38
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Traffic is not the real problem (though the loss of quality of life because of it certainly is), but a symptom.

The problem is that the infrastructure cannot handle the excessive amount of frontaliers that FMOP has caused, and will take decades to fix.

Until then, the number of frontaliers should be limited to what the infrastructure can handle.

THAT is the problem.

QED

Tom
Sounds reasonable but who decides "what the infrastructure can handle" and how do measure that.

I suppose it is all a question of perception; for many years I lived within 20 miles of London and consequently for me the whole of Switzerland is practically a traffic free zone. I live on one of the main routes for Grenzgangers from Germany and they say that we have almost 30,000 vehicles passing our place every day but they keep moving; it is not like London where every route is stop/start for many miles.
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Old 02.05.2014, 18:43
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Sounds reasonable but who decides "what the infrastructure can handle" and how do measure that.
Several guys I work with used to take 20 minutes to get to work, now it's 45-60 minutes!

Even Italians are complaining, as the traffic increase due to the frontaliers heading here is causing nightmares for them as well.

Tom
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Old 02.05.2014, 18:45
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Sounds reasonable but who decides "what the infrastructure can handle" and how do measure that.

I suppose it is all a question of perception; for many years I lived within 20 miles of London and conseqfor me the whole of Switzerland is practically a traffic free zone
I quite definitely think that London's transport infrastructure cannot "handle" what's thrown at it every day. And whereas it is true that improvemenst are ongoing all the time, these are nowhere near sufficient to meet the galloping demand. London's tube system is, with the exception of some recent additions, basically where it was in the 1930s. Buses are actually slower than they were in the 1950s. Yet population is many times what it was then. I much prefer the Swiss attitude of trying to build infrastructure ahead of demand.
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