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  #721  
Old 02.05.2014, 18:48
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Ticino and Lombardia, exactly in the sector in question, are infuriating and frustrating

I know, many Ticinesi say that all this is caused by the low regard given to TI by CH in general. This is true in many ways but more action from the TI people might be required
I've never heard anyone saying that except for the bad and always late or broken trains that the SBB insist on using on the züri-milan line. They have announced they'll be replaced but there was a problem with the model they picked IIRC.
Btw this is exclusively train-related because the parallel ICN that does exactly the same trip but 2 minutes earlier and stops in Lugano is always on time. They do this on purpose to provide reliable service to people who move inside of CH I guess.

Except for this, the problems when it comes to trains to MXP and Milan are all Italy's fault.
The swiss S-trains (TILO) always arrive on time at the border. Then the chaos begins.
The TILO trains from Italy are often late to the swiss border, but after it's crossed, no more lateness is added to the train.

They often do stupid stuff, like sometimes the italian train crew that should take over in Chiasso is 30 mins or so late, and almost every time they just make the trains wait around doing nothing between Milan and Monza. The average speed of italian trains is very low compared to other countries. They can't organize and/or they're not investing enough in the infrastructure. Cheap tickets are certainly a factor for explaining low service quality, but magna-magna and unionized public employment "culture" add to it.

SBB invests quite a bit in TI but on the other side of the border they're always focused on bickering and keeping coalition governments in equilibrium.
E.g. they just changed lombardy's minister of transport because of political games. Months of talks for nothing.
Italian railway projects need much more time to be completed than swiss ones and there is often no money to do it (just drive on sicilian motorways to know where it's gone).
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  #722  
Old 02.05.2014, 18:57
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Several guys I work with used to take 20 minutes to get to work, now it's 45-60 minutes!

Even Italians are complaining, as the traffic increase due to the frontaliers heading here is causing nightmares for them as well.

Tom
About "Several guys I work with used to take 20 minutes to get to work, now it's 45-60 minutes!"
I understand that people are upset when this happens but the question is what is reasonable? Should the Swiss aim to reduce this back to 20 minutes, or aim for some compromise like 30-35 minutes or simply try to keep it at not worse than 60 minutes.

An associated issue here is the incredible long times they take to build or modify roads. It is quite common to see major road works with signs indicating several years whereas in other countries they take months for similar work.
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  #723  
Old 02.05.2014, 20:05
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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every single one of history's great injustices derives from the premise you have written above. very, very dangerous thinking.
Sorry, but it is, historically speaking, the very very definition of morals.

Which happens to be exactly why I do not like discussion on morals.

They either are absolute and dangerous or relative and meaningless (as they go against their definition).

I like to talk about ethics and optimization of the social gain.
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  #724  
Old 02.05.2014, 23:28
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Sorry, but it is, historically speaking, the very very definition of morals.
no, it is not, which is why philosophers, politicians, psychologists and even dudes sitting around the table drinking beer on Friday nights have debated the issue since time immemorial. the premise that underlies universal morality is the existence of an absolute determiner of what is "moral" and what is not, which is what makes it so dangerous.

what gives relative morality significance is a given community's social contract to abide by the agreed morality, which is effectively the point many who defend the Swiss vote in this thread have been making. the intersection between moral relativism and our modern concept of sovereignty is at the very heart of the matter, isn't it? candidly, moral relativism is the very basis of modern democracy, much as many of my fellow Americans hate to admit it.
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  #725  
Old 03.05.2014, 12:14
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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no, it is not, which is why philosophers, politicians, psychologists and even dudes sitting around the table drinking beer on Friday nights have debated the issue since time immemorial. the premise that underlies universal morality is the existence of an absolute determiner of what is "moral" and what is not, which is what makes it so dangerous.

what gives relative morality significance is a given community's social contract to abide by the agreed morality, which is effectively the point many who defend the Swiss vote in this thread have been making. the intersection between moral relativism and our modern concept of sovereignty is at the very heart of the matter, isn't it? candidly, moral relativism is the very basis of modern democracy, much as many of my fellow Americans hate to admit it.
But, sorry crazygringo, I find the debate amongst the philosopher really pointless, if you cannot define a reference point, because it is not possible to prove that there such a reference point (that could be God, who, I would like to keep out of the discussion), then when you get in front of confronting two different moral systems, you really do not know who is right or wrong.
Then the point of defining the moral in the first place lose meaning and we are the same as before the discussion on morals.

If one let go all the discussions about morals and focuses on very concrete things, on the other hand, the discussion suddenly has more sense, even semantically.

Example: there is a problem of traffic (not of morals) so to solve it, the responsible of the problem should CONTRIBUTE towards the infrastructure, that is going to benefit everybody, until the infrastracture is in place. Then everybody shall pay to just keep the infrastructure working well.

Who is the responsible, quantitatively speaking is 70% immigrants, 30% populaiton. Let's have the immigrants pay a reasonable token for this, which is going to be normalised as soon as everything returns normal thanks to the new infrastructures.

You see, there is nothing about morals inside, there is a quantitative discussion, it makes sense, in particular it would make sense to reasonable immigrants... and if they are not reasonable they can return home and keep unreasonable there (!)... and the solution is found together, not imposed because the society is closed (!) to any form of collaboration.

Just saying.
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  #726  
Old 03.05.2014, 12:30
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Example: there is a problem of traffic (not of morals) so to solve it, the responsible of the problem should CONTRIBUTE towards the infrastructure, that is going to benefit everybody, until the infrastracture is in place. Then everybody shall pay to just keep the infrastructure working well.
You are as much a philosopher as any philosopher. You are a utilitarian.

Just saying.
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  #727  
Old 03.05.2014, 13:17
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You are as much a philosopher as any philosopher. You are a utilitarian.

Just saying.

Pretty much I suppose, but not by decision, or study, rather by experience.

I know very little of philosophy. Just to be clear: some notions seen in high school. If you bring me there, you will just find that I am ignorant as a sheep (not to offend the sheep).

I have seen a lot of damage, in my life, done with absolute thinking, that is why I think that the best approach is to see what the problem is and then to find a trade off that is not based on absolute positions.

And then adapt slowly the tradeoff as the environment changes.

If you take Ukraine at the moment (my sister in law comes from Ukraine) you can understand what I mean. We are Ukranian, no Russian, no Ukranian, No RUSSIAN !!!

And then boom.

Maybe Crimea could have become a special province of Ukraine with strong tights with Russia, or the way around would have worked the same. I mean
you get the thinking.
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Old 03.05.2014, 13:24
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And then boom.

Maybe Crimea could have become a special province of Ukraine with strong tights with Russia, or the way around would have worked the same. I mean
you get the thinking.
You're asking too much from humans.
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  #729  
Old 03.05.2014, 14:51
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You're asking too much from humans.
So sorry, but the Crimea since the days of the Great Katharina II was Russian as Russian can be. That Nikita S.C. in the 50ies handed the Peninsula to the Ukrainian SR was clearly rubbish

That the Ukrainians in Odessa reacted in full to the Russian attempt to turn Odessa into another Crimea is perfectly understandable and really alright

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  #730  
Old 03.05.2014, 20:08
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But, sorry crazygringo, I find the debate amongst the philosopher really pointless, if you cannot define a reference point, because it is not possible to prove that there such a reference point (that could be God, who, I would like to keep out of the discussion), then when you get in front of confronting two different moral systems, you really do not know who is right or wrong.
Then the point of defining the moral in the first place lose meaning and we are the same as before the discussion on morals.

If one let go all the discussions about morals and focuses on very concrete things, on the other hand, the discussion suddenly has more sense, even semantically.

Example: there is a problem of traffic (not of morals) so to solve it, the responsible of the problem should CONTRIBUTE towards the infrastructure, that is going to benefit everybody, until the infrastracture is in place. Then everybody shall pay to just keep the infrastructure working well.

Who is the responsible, quantitatively speaking is 70% immigrants, 30% populaiton. Let's have the immigrants pay a reasonable token for this, which is going to be normalised as soon as everything returns normal thanks to the new infrastructures.

You see, there is nothing about morals inside, there is a quantitative discussion, it makes sense, in particular it would make sense to reasonable immigrants... and if they are not reasonable they can return home and keep unreasonable there (!)... and the solution is found together, not imposed because the society is closed (!) to any form of collaboration.

Just saying.
but "morality" is absolutely critical to social contract theory, and therefore critical to our modern concept of democracy. and, in a democracy, how to solve the problem of traffic (to use your example) is to be determined by those who have "signed" the relevant social contract - in this case, those would be citizens of Switzerland. there are probably 100's of ways the Swiss could have chosen as a sovereign nation to solve the traffic problem, and - if you accept the notion of democracy - the only "immoral" solution would have been the one not freely chosen by the voters in Switzerland.

I get your pragmatism, and I generally share the same view when it comes to social and political issues. but I also get the fact that what I think is the best pragmatic answer is not relevant in Switzerland, because I´m not a citizen and therefore not a voter.
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  #731  
Old 03.05.2014, 21:41
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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but "morality" is absolutely critical to social contract theory, and therefore critical to our modern concept of democracy. and, in a democracy, how to solve the problem of traffic (to use your example) is to be determined by those who have "signed" the relevant social contract - in this case, those would be citizens of Switzerland. there are probably 100's of ways the Swiss could have chosen as a sovereign nation to solve the traffic problem, and - if you accept the notion of democracy - the only "immoral" solution would have been the one not freely chosen by the voters in Switzerland.

I get your pragmatism, and I generally share the same view when it comes to social and political issues. but I also get the fact that what I think is the best pragmatic answer is not relevant in Switzerland, because I´m not a citizen and therefore not a voter.

True. Nevertheless, I think we are in Switzerland because it is a nation that thinks pragmatically.

I was shocked by the vote. Now I am trying my best to wait and see how this is solved.

It is true, and undeniable, that immigration at these levels is not suistanable. What I want to see is if the solution will be an ideological one or a very pragmatic one that optimizes the gain of the country.

If the solution is pragmatic and not just something that is an imposition and creates problem for the sake of asserting a nationality, then I will wait further 8 years, get to learn German in addition to French, and become Swiss.
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  #732  
Old 03.05.2014, 23:36
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but "morality" is absolutely critical to social contract theory, and therefore critical to our modern concept of democracy. and, in a democracy, how to solve the problem of traffic (to use your example) is to be determined by those who have "signed" the relevant social contract - in this case, those would be citizens of Switzerland. there are probably 100's of ways the Swiss could have chosen as a sovereign nation to solve the traffic problem, and - if you accept the notion of democracy - the only "immoral" solution would have been the one not freely chosen by the voters in Switzerland.

I get your pragmatism, and I generally share the same view when it comes to social and political issues. but I also get the fact that what I think is the best pragmatic answer is not relevant in Switzerland, because I´m not a citizen and therefore not a voter.
Switzerland is a full member of lots of international organisations and is signatory to lots of bilateral treaties. Already General Henri Guisan in a speech in about 1942 spoke about the responsibilities of the postwar generation of Swiss people in a new Europe

The Gotthard railways tunnel was partially financed by the post 1871 German Empire and Austria-Hungary plus private companies from both countries. Finance which was never paid back by the Escher family empire.

All the treaties signed since 1848 are still valid, a situation practically only shared with Britain, while most other European countries changed legal identity over the periods in between.

As some Bundesräte like Micheline Calmy Rey repeatedly stated, this sovereignity includes a definite responsibility and commitment, and in fact rather is a liability.

It is not just some moral ideas, it is signed treaties, treaties which in a way are the basis of the Swiss sovereignty and independence.

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Old 03.05.2014, 23:57
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It is not just some moral ideas, it is signed treaties, treaties which in a way are the basis of the Swiss sovereignty and independence.
completely agreed, and I think in the long run the net impact of the vote will be zero, because Switzerland (as a country, not necessarily as individual citizens) benefits tremendously from those treaties. every time someone tries to convince me that the EU needs Switzerland more than Switzerland needs the EU I simply chuckle, both because the notion is patently absurd and because trying to debate the point with my Swiss friends is completely futile. but I also realize that most of my Swiss friends who voted in favor of the initiative don't care about who needs whom more, from their perspective they are not the ones getting rich off the current arrangement and they simply want fewer foreigners fighting them for position on the motorways, at the train stations, on the ski slops, at the Migros, etc.

in 3 years, the whole initiative will have been little more than a motherhood and apple pie vote to rouse the rabble, the SVP will have moved on to its next campaign, and the average dude on the street will still be complaining about foreigners. unless, of course, parts of the EU follow Switzerland's example and start taking similar actions, which is not entirely outside the realm of possibility.
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  #734  
Old 11.05.2014, 21:19
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Nothing. Last news state that we will be a third country for Horizon 2020, with no solution down the line.
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  #735  
Old 12.05.2014, 09:48
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I was shocked by the vote.

...

It is true, and undeniable, that immigration at these levels is not suistanable.
Why then were you "shocked" with the immigration vote (on Feb 9th 2014)?

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What I want to see is if the solution will be an ideological one or a very pragmatic one that optimizes the gain of the country.
The Swiss people are the ones who decide in this, their nation, what passes as "pragmatic" and what really does indeed "optimize the gain of their country" - what they decide may not meet your expectations. I am more interested in what benefits (or optimizes) the gain of the individual, the national population, rather than the "country" - as I believe that for a while now the "country" (big business and high-level government) have been by far the largest benefactors of this so-called economic growth in Switzerland.

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If the solution is pragmatic and not just something that is an imposition and creates problem for the sake of asserting a nationality,
Again, it may be deemed "pragmatic" for a people, a nation, to "assert" or define some things which further enhance and protect their cultural heritage and identity. To you it may seem illogical or irrational, but one could also say that if it were not for the historical and cultural background of the Swiss we would be without the "pragmatism" we purport to admire in them today. So keeping a good thing going is .. well, generally a good and pragmatic thing to do!
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  #736  
Old 12.05.2014, 09:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Nothing. Last news state that we will be a third country for Horizon 2020, with no solution down the line.

"We"!? Are you Swiss!? ... or perhaps you are talking about your country of origin ...
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Old 12.05.2014, 19:10
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"We"!? Are you Swiss!? ... or perhaps you are talking about your country of origin ...
Yes, research is my country of origin and I am talking about my fellow researchers.

By the way, considering the current situation, even if there were 700 votes against immigration, even to scrap the rights of people that are already here, if I am forced to go I will bring with me Swiss money from the Swiss state that you paid with your taxes. Because it is money assigned to me and it follows me.


And there is really nothing you can do about it. .

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  #738  
Old 12.05.2014, 19:18
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Why then were you "shocked" with the immigration vote (on Feb 9th 2014)?
Because it is a racist vote. There is nothing pragmatic about racism....


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The Swiss people are the ones who decide in this, their nation, what passes as "pragmatic" and what really does indeed "optimize the gain of their country" - what they decide may not meet your expectations. I am more interested in what benefits (or optimizes) the gain of the individual, the national population, rather than the "country" - as I believe that for a while now the "country" (big business and high-level government) have been by far the largest benefactors of this so-called economic growth in Switzerland.
It rather seems that the country now wants to decide to vote for keeping the bilaterals, which, apparently, are considered good by 70% of the population.


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Again, it may be deemed "pragmatic" for a people, a nation, to "assert" or define some things which further enhance and protect their cultural heritage and identity. To you it may seem illogical or irrational, but one could also say that if it were not for the historical and cultural background of the Swiss we would be without the "pragmatism" we purport to admire in them today. So keeping a good thing going is .. well, generally a good and pragmatic thing to do!
The vote created problems, costs, further problems. (and people legally leaving, with the money paid to your tax system, but again, legally).

Last edited by SteAlka; 12.05.2014 at 20:49.
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  #739  
Old 12.05.2014, 20:55
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Yes, research is my country of origin and I am talking about my fellow researchers.
!? "research" is your country!?
For you to say that I take it you don't think much of your country of origin ... LOL!!

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By the way, considering the current situation, even if there were 700 votes against immigration, even to scrap the rights of people that are already here, if I am forced to go I will bring with me Swiss money from the Swiss state that you paid with your taxes. Because it is money assigned to me and it follows me.


And there is really nothing you can do about it. .
I really have no idea what your "700 votes" are referring to, or what money you think you can take with you outside of Switzerland other than what belongs to you - and if it legally belongs to you then I see no problem with you taking it!
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Old 12.05.2014, 21:04
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Why then were you "shocked" with the immigration vote (on Feb 9th 2014)?



The Swiss people are the ones who decide in this, their nation, what passes as "pragmatic" and what really does indeed "optimize the gain of their country" - what they decide may not meet your expectations. I am more interested in what benefits (or optimizes) the gain of the individual, the national population, rather than the "country" - as I believe that for a while now the "country" (big business and high-level government) have been by far the largest benefactors of this so-called economic growth in Switzerland.



Again, it may be deemed "pragmatic" for a people, a nation, to "assert" or define some things which further enhance and protect their cultural heritage and identity. To you it may seem illogical or irrational, but one could also say that if it were not for the historical and cultural background of the Swiss we would be without the "pragmatism" we purport to admire in them today. So keeping a good thing going is .. well, generally a good and pragmatic thing to do!
People soon get into the culture; Blocher's family became citizens in 1861
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