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Old 12.05.2014, 21:05
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Because it is a racist vote. There is nothing pragmatic about racism....
Ha! This nonsense again!
Go read the text of the initiative (it's available in English here: LINK), and then tell me how exactly that is "racist"!

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It rather seems that the country now wants to decide to vote for keeping the bilaterals, which, apparently, are considered good by 70% of the population.
What are you referring to? What have given you this impression? For that matter what ever gave you the impression that the majority of Swiss people were ever against the Bilateral Agreements!? To the best of my knowledge the majority of Swiss people have been of the opinion that at least most of the Bilateral Agreements were acceptable - so how is this anything new to you!?


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The vote created problems, costs, further problems. (and people legally leaving, with the money paid to your tax system, but again, legally).
Sounds like you haven't got much at all to go on. Overall the repercussions from the vote were actually pretty minimal. Just a few months later and things are already being worked out with Erasmus, Croatia and very likely FP8 as well ... really nothing worth panicking about.

Additionally all changes cause upheavals and times of adaptation and customizing to the new reality. Because something "costs", or even causes some initial hiccups and/or temporary problems, does in no way signify that the change was wrong - allowing for a time of transition is totally normal and to be expected.
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  #742  
Old 12.05.2014, 21:07
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People soon get into the culture; Blocher's family became citizens in 1861
Not that that has anything to do with my post ... right!?
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  #743  
Old 12.05.2014, 21:07
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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!? "research" is your country!?
For you to say that I take it you don't think much of your country of origin ... LOL!!



I really have no idea what your "700 votes" are referring to, or what money you think you can take with you outside of Switzerland other than what belongs to you - and if it legally belongs to you then I see no problem with you taking it!
I assume he has an EU research grant which will continue to be paid if he relocates to another country.
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  #744  
Old 12.05.2014, 21:12
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Not that that has anything to do with my post ... right!?
I was explaining that foreigners entering the country does not damage the cultural heritage and my example was Blocher.
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Old 12.05.2014, 21:13
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I was explaining that foreigners entering the country does not damage the cultural heritage and my example was Blocher.
So are you saying that Blocher is a good thing for the protection and preservation of Swiss cultural heritage?
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  #746  
Old 12.05.2014, 21:39
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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!? "research" is your country!?
For you to say that I take it you don't think much of your country of origin ... LOL!!
Or I believe in research before believing in any form of bullshit related to nationalism.

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I really have no idea what your "700 votes" are referring to, or what money you think you can take with you outside of Switzerland other than what belongs to you - and if it legally belongs to you then I see no problem with you taking it!
SNF money is transferable. And coming from Swiss taxes.

Researchers put up rules of this kind in place just to prevent having problems with... well... politics. It is the same almost all over the European continent.

If you want you can try a referendum on this, you could give a suggestion to Blocher maybe.
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  #747  
Old 12.05.2014, 21:53
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Ha! This nonsense again!
Go read the text of the initiative (it's available in English here: LINK), and then tell me how exactly that is "racist"!
Considering how you are getting upset because I used "we" I think it is irrelevant what is written there.

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What are you referring to? What have given you this impression? For that matter what ever gave you the impression that the majority of Swiss people were ever against the Bilateral Agreements!? To the best of my knowledge the majority of Swiss people have been of the opinion that at least most of the Bilateral Agreements were acceptable - so how is this anything new to you!?

Sounds like you haven't got much at all to go on. Overall the repercussions from the vote were actually pretty minimal. Just a few months later and things are already being worked out with Erasmus, Croatia and very likely FP8 as well ... really nothing worth panicking about.

Additionally all changes cause upheavals and times of adaptation and customizing to the new reality. Because something "costs", or even causes some initial hiccups and/or temporary problems, does in no way signify that the change was wrong - allowing for a time of transition is totally normal and to be expected.
FP8 does not exist.
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  #748  
Old 12.05.2014, 22:08
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Or I believe in research before believing in any form of bullshit related to nationalism.
So is everything relating to nationalism "bullshit" to you? - Or are you just opposed to the parts of nationalism which are "bullshit" in your view?

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SNF money is transferable. And coming from Swiss taxes.

Researchers put up rules of this kind in place just to prevent having problems with... well... politics. It is the same almost all over the European continent.

If you want you can try a referendum on this, you could give a suggestion to Blocher maybe.
I still don't know what you are carrying on about. If it's legal then I have nothing against you taking with you what is rightfully (legally) yours to take. - And the more I read what you have to say the more I think to myself "good riddance"!
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  #749  
Old 12.05.2014, 22:12
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Considering how you are getting upset because I used "we" I think it is irrelevant what is written there.
Right - so you judge something which you have not read based on the assumption that the actual material which you judge is "irrelevant".
With an attitude like that I would hate to think that you are involved in research which others are putting any amount of trust in!

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FP8 does not exist.
Says the "researcher" who doesn't think material is relevant!
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  #750  
Old 12.05.2014, 22:46
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Because it is a racist vote. There is nothing pragmatic about racism....
How, then, would you explain that many secondos/second-generation Swiss/non-Swiss voted in favor of the initiative, even though their parents migrated to Switzerland from somewhere else not too long ago?

If, as you put it, the initiative was purely racist and nothing else, how can it be explained that half the votes came from the middle and even from the left?

You say yourself that the kind of immigration Switzerland experienced over the last ten years would in fact not be sustainable in any industrialized nation. So how come you only look at one side of the initiative instead of the many aspects it had and has?

And how do you think would, for instance, Germany react if they had more than 1 million people immigrating to their country every single year and if they had to build a city the size of Cologne with its respective infrastructure every year just to have enough space for all of them? Do you think they would have watched this happening for 10 years with no reaction whatsoever?

I am not disputing that some of those who voted in favor of the initiative did so because they are simply against foreigners. You can find racists in every country. But the large majority voted yes for very different reasons.

And btw - I voted no.
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  #751  
Old 12.05.2014, 22:56
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How, then, would you explain that many secondos/second-generation Swiss/non-Swiss voted in favor of the initiative, even though their parents migrated to Switzerland from somewhere else not too long ago?

If, as you put it, the initiative was purely racist and nothing else, how can it be explained that half the votes came from the middle and even from the left?

You say yourself that the kind of immigration Switzerland experienced over the last ten years would in fact not be sustainable in any industrialized nation. So how come you only look at one side of the initiative instead of the many aspects it had and has?

And how do you think would, for instance, Germany react if they had more than 1 million people immigrating to their country every single year and if they had to build a city the size of Cologne with its respective infrastructure every year just to have enough space for all of them? Do you think they would have watched this happening for 10 years with no reaction whatsoever?

I am not disputing that some of those who voted in favor of the initiative did so because they are simply against foreigners. You can find racists in every country. But the large majority voted yes for very different reasons.

And btw - I voted no.
Fear.
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  #752  
Old 12.05.2014, 23:04
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Fear.
Again, how is it "racist"? Against which "race" is the initiative? Are all nations which seek to control their immigration policy doing so out of "racism"?

As for "fear" - fear is many times a good thing. Fear is a very important emotion which drives the instinct to survive. Is the desire to survive a negative thing to you? Do you see the desire for Swiss people to want to see their cultural heritage survive as a negative thing?
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  #753  
Old 12.05.2014, 23:11
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So is everything relating to nationalism "bullshit" to you? - Or are you just opposed to the parts of nationalism which are "bullshit" in your view?



I still don't know what you are carrying on about. If it's legal then I have nothing against you taking with you what is rightfully (legally) yours to take. - And the more I read what you have to say the more I think to myself "good riddance"!
I am rather here to stay .
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  #754  
Old 12.05.2014, 23:20
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Again, how is it "racist"? Against which "race" is the initiative? Are all nations which seek to control their immigration policy doing so out of "racism"?

As for "fear" - fear is many times a good thing. Fear is a very important emotion which drives the instinct to survive. Is the desire to survive a negative thing to you? Do you see the desire for Swiss people to want to see their cultural heritage survive as a negative thing?

I will return serious for just a sec:

You did not read anything before right, you just got nervous on the "We", if you cared to look at a couple of my discussions you will see that I am in favour of finding good reasoned compromises, whereas this referendum text is clearly the first thing that came out of the mind of Blocher.

That is why they want to go for another referendum. It is so badly specified that even the most moderated of politicians finds it difficult to comment or to work with.

Edit: A new Ref. does not imply that it is wrong that there is too much immigration. No, it only implies that the text of 9th of Feb. referendum was badly written and formulated, creating only problems.
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  #755  
Old 12.05.2014, 23:25
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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So are you saying that Blocher is a good thing for the protection and preservation of Swiss cultural heritage?
Yes;
that , of course, is not the same as saying I think the protection and preservation of Swiss cultural heritage is a good thing.

This could turn into a whole discussion of "is change a good thing" and maybe even touch on religions that want us to live exactly like we did a couple of millennia ago.
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Old 12.05.2014, 23:27
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Again, how is it "racist"? Against which "race" is the initiative? Are all nations which seek to control their immigration policy doing so out of "racism"?
Racism doesn't do it for you? Fair enough. Replace it everywhere by xenophobia. It'll do.

I couldn't care less about the initiative. If it wasn't this one, it would be something else. The country is changing its mind about what it voted for earlier and this is what pisses of Germany. Nobody cares about CH closing itself back to Heidi paradise. States care about what a treaty with CH is worth. Signed today and rejected a few years later because the population felt like it? Why signing anything in the first place, then.

There were frontaliers and foreigners before CH signed Schengen, there will be with or without it in future too.


P.S. I am very much for the Swiss cultural heritage, I took five years of Rumansh lessons… I feel qualified.
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  #757  
Old 12.05.2014, 23:27
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I will return serious for just a sec:

You did not read anything before right, you just got nervous on the "We", if you cared to look at a couple of my discussions you will see that I am in favour of finding good reasoned compromises, whereas this referendum text is clearly the first thing that came out of the mind of Blocher.

That is why they want to go for another referendum. It is so badly specified that even the most moderated of politicians finds it difficult to comment or to work with.
You are not answering the question. You made a statement that the initiative was "racist" - I am asking you about that statement and what you may or may not have said prior doesn't really matter to me.

So to repeat myself - "Again, how is it "racist"? Against which "race" is the initiative? Are all nations which seek to control their immigration policy doing so out of "racism"?"

I think it's distasteful how you take the initiative and simply state that it "came out of the mind of Blocher" - as if by association to Blocher it automatically becomes illegitimate, wrong or "racist". Furthermore, if the initiative was something which only "came out of the mind of Blocher" are all the Swiss people who voted for it brainless, mindless zombies that don't know how to make up their own minds!?
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  #758  
Old 12.05.2014, 23:31
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Yes;
that , of course, is not the same as saying I think the protection and preservation of Swiss cultural heritage is a good thing.
Well if you don't think that the "protection and preservation of Swiss cultural heritage is a good thing" then I completely understand why you would be opposed to the initiative - and why you would be opposed to everything which would attempt to do the aforementioned.

Additionally if you are opposed to the "protection and preservation of Swiss cultural heritage" I personally would see this as being very ill-mannered in a country hosting you. - But I understand why many here would welcome your stance, if indeed this is it.

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Old 12.05.2014, 23:32
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Fear.
Fear of what or whom?

This doesn't answer my questions.

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You did not read anything before right, you just got nervous on the "We", if you cared to look at a couple of my discussions you will see that I am in favour of finding good reasoned compromises, whereas this referendum text is clearly the first thing that came out of the mind of Blocher.

That is why they want to go for another referendum. It is so badly specified that even the most moderated of politicians finds it difficult to comment or to work with.
Well, one could argue that the original plan was a compromise. It was promised that no more than 0.1% of the population would migrate here annually. Based on this, the "Personenfreizügigkeit" was accepted.

10 years later, that 0.1% p.a. turned out to be in fact 1% p.a. That is a substantial difference.

It often takes a drastic countermeasure to get a change underway.

There is no doubt in my mind that the eventual outcome of this vote will tip into the direction of the left, or the population's decisions will be undermined altogether. However, our politicians should be supercareful as to what they do now as there's another initiative on this underway which is even much more drastic - Ecopop. Interestingly enough, that one comes from the left. Hm, how does that fit into the whole racism argument?
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  #760  
Old 12.05.2014, 23:43
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Racism doesn't do it for you? Fair enough. Replace it everywhere by xenophobia. It'll do.
These are two very different words, and "racist" was the word which was used - and it wasn't used by you so I am not looking to you for an explanation of it.

As for "xenophobia" - I disagree there as well as I do not think that the disagreement shown towards the pre-initiative immigration policies were irrational or without reason. As many have stated (even those opposed to the initiative) the rate of immigration into Switzerland was not, is not, sustainable. Maybe the flavour of the initiative caused people's heads to spin - but it's the Swiss people who are ultimately responsible for their land, for their society, and for their well-being - not the immigrants.

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The country is changing its mind about what it voted for earlier and this is what pisses of Germany.
Why should that "piss" off anyone? Why do we have the opportunity to vote if we should not vote on something lest it "piss" off Germany, or the EU for that matter? Is this democracy thing just here to make us think that we are free? - to make us daydream about having a real say in the laws of our land? Not to my mind - and evidently not the mind of many proud-to-vote Swiss as well.

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Signed today and rejected a few years later because the population felt like it? Why signing anything in the first place, then.
Nothing is agreed upon forever, and for people to insinuate that there were no warning signs leading up to this initiative is plain misleading - or at best these people just were not aware of the signs themselves.

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There were frontaliers and foreigners before CH signed Schengen, there will be with or without it in future too.
Exactly correct! - And we have no beef with that - so long as we are free to regulate it as our people see fit!
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