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  #801  
Old 15.05.2014, 13:28
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Furthermore, just looking at the other side one need look no further than Germany.

When I was living in Germany, much of the left there and especially the Greens were praising Switzerland and Swiss-style direct democarcy as the greatest thing since GMO-free sliced pumpernickel. Giving the people the vote was the best way to break the back of the reactionary bourgeouis oligarchy (adapt precise wording according to decade), or so they said.

Today, with some recent votes in Switzerland going the other way, it is the right wing all over Europe that has suddenly discovered its enthusaism for direct democracy and the left that is trying its best to unsay what it previously preached and calling for somebody other than "the people" to have the final say - preferbly this "somebody" should be a leftie.

I'm also pretty sure than if some major votes in Switzerland go the other way again, which at some point I'm sure they will, positions will yet again reverse.

To me this just goes to show that for many people, the ends justify means and all this talk about genuinely empowering the electorate was and is just hot air.
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  #802  
Old 15.05.2014, 18:48
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Could someone please explain to me how the "culture" of Switzerland is threatened by immigration? I can understand the arguments that too many immigrants are a drain on society, that they aren't learning the language fast enough, that they are committing too much crime. I know these arguments because they are made in my country, too, but I'm troubled about these pleas for the "culture" of Switzerland. It sounds like code for "there are too many people coming in here from all these exotic lands like Italy, France, Germany, and Austria."

I do think that the culture of Switzerland IS affected and changed by immigration, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. One of the reasons why London won the right to host the 2012 Olympics over Paris wasn't just the personal charisma of Lord Sebastian Coe but the fact that over 100 different languages are spoken in London. It may be asking too much for Geneva, Zurich, or Basel to become THAT cosmopolitan, but if people from other countries WANT to live in your country that's usually a good thing. I hope that the effect of this referendum will not mess up that "good thing" for Switzerland, and the people who live there.

A teacher from nearby here told me a while ago that in her school there were pupils of as many countries as in the United Nations, with ONE noteable exception of course

That over 100 different languages are spoken of course also is true in case of Paris, BUT French officialdom insists that only ONE language is spoken in the French Republic
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  #803  
Old 15.05.2014, 19:06
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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When I was living in Germany, much of the left there and especially the Greens were praising Switzerland and Swiss-style direct democarcy as the greatest thing since GMO-free sliced pumpernickel.
Pumpernickel is a greal cultural heritage of Germany, when I lived there and played soccer with Kurdish kids, nobody was nagging about kebab threatening local traditions. It was a la mode, tbh, and even pumpernickel loving granola folks were happy lining up at ethnic stores/restos. I have never felt hostility towards newcomers, the opposite. The way things are sometimes misinterpreted, simplified and served in campaigns here..leaves me not surprised by the vote, really. The fact a redneck politician says something sexist in medias about his wife, that he dares and considers it humorous, represents how women get treated and will also have an influence on some. We see threads about domestic difficulties linked to that here. The fact certain simplified, panic inducing, xeonophobic or rasist rhetorics are allowed (and delivered to my mail box without me agreeing) resulted in people voting certain way. I'd say direct democracy is great, why not, after common decency has been supervised. Unless it is a mo of officials, since they hope things will easier take care of themselves like this, without gov spending on making locals more apt in the competition on the job market.
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  #804  
Old 15.05.2014, 19:17
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The fact certain simplified, panic inducing, xeonophobic or rasist rhetorics are allowed (and delivered to my mail box without me agreeing) resulted in people voting certain way.
There aren't many political parties that don't operate with doom and gloom scenarios. The FDP tells me that if we don't slash taxes today we'll be broke tomorrow. The Greens tells me that if we don't get rid of nuclear power today the Swiss power plants will be destroyed by a massive tsunami just like in Fukushima tomorrow and we'll all die from eating radioactive sushi. The SVP tells me that if we don't stop immigration, some migrant will tak my job tomorrow and my wife the day after. So when it's time to vote I have to decide whether I wanted to be taxed to death, lose my wife and job or maybe just settle for a bit of radioactive sushi (which nobody can force me to eat anyway)

So isn't it all down to "vote for me because my doom and glory stories are more deadly than yours"

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I'd say direct democracy is great, why not, after common decency has been supervised. Unless it is a mo of officials, since they hope things will easier take care of themselves like this, without gov spending on making locals more apt in the competition on the job market.
And who should supervise decency? How would you be sure they're not taking sides and being tougher on one side than the other?
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  #805  
Old 15.05.2014, 19:26
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

I understand. Plus - who says campaigners just don't simply respond to expectations of voters, ie their low level of political understanding. I don't think so, though, local friends were as appaled as me, when we had black sheep flyers pushed in our mail, then papers about full school day being a nonsense of poorly parenting moms that will result in criminal kids on chomage. There are better ways to run the whole discourse...that don't take voters for mindless. I don't think one has to necessarily exaggerate in the bleek scenarios if one wants to be noticed, I find it offensive towards the voters.

eta - I know we have at home an independent committee for evaluating political language for possible damaging stereotypes and certain illegal symbolism and rhetorics (nazi, etc) that is watching if minorities get portrayed possibly offensively, women, poor, etc. General antidiscriminatory human rights surveillance in watching media and campaigns. It is actually organized not politically, but academicaly, if I remember well. Does that not exist here? Things get nailed down, even without this committee so fast in papers that simplicism does not have much chance. However, people forget and get nostalgic for past, so we have other major problems..
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  #806  
Old 15.05.2014, 19:28
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Furthermore, just looking at the other side one need look no further than Germany.

When I was living in Germany, much of the left there and especially the Greens were praising Switzerland and Swiss-style direct democarcy as the greatest thing since GMO-free sliced pumpernickel. Giving the people the vote was the best way to break the back of the reactionary bourgeouis oligarchy (adapt precise wording according to decade), or so they said.

Today, with some recent votes in Switzerland going the other way, it is the right wing all over Europe that has suddenly discovered its enthusaism for direct democracy and the left that is trying its best to unsay what it previously preached and calling for somebody other than "the people" to have the final say - preferbly this "somebody" should be a leftie.

I'm also pretty sure than if some major votes in Switzerland go the other way again, which at some point I'm sure they will, positions will yet again reverse.

To me this just goes to show that for many people, the ends justify means and all this talk about genuinely empowering the electorate was and is just hot air.
Within a year, the left won important votes and the right won important votes. Direct Democracy so is unpredictable as leftwing-voters may vote rightwing at one time and rightwing-voters leftwing at the next time, as it happens all the time.
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  #807  
Old 15.05.2014, 19:35
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I understand. Plus - who says campaigners just don't simply respond to expectations of voters, ie their low level of political understanding. I don't think so, though, local friends were as appaled as me, when we had black sheep flyers pushed in our mail, then papers about full school day being a nonsense of poorly parenting moms that will result in criminal kids on chomage. There are better ways to run the whole discourse...that don't take voters for mindless. I don't think one has to necessarily exaggerate in the bleek scenarios if one wants to be noticed, I find it offensive towards the voters.
A lot of issues are highly complex. The black sheep was a caricature reducing a somewhat complex issue to a simpler one. But you can't really explain a complex issue with a single picture on a single poster. For that you need nuanced debate. But you still can't put that nuanced deabte on your poster. I think all parties are to some extent guilty of simplifying things and assuming people are stupid and simple. But people are neither stupid or simple and they do understand issues.
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Old 15.05.2014, 19:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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A lot of issues are highly complex. The black sheep was a caricature reducing a somewhat complex issue to a simpler one. But you can't really explain a complex issue with a single picture on a single poster. For that you need nuanced debate. But you still can't put that nuanced deabte on your poster. I think all parties are to some extent guilty of simplifying things and assuming people are stupid and simple. But people are neither stupid or simple and they do understand issues.
But despite the sophistication and intelligence of the people, the anti-minaret initiative passed.

Apparently the single picture on a single poster was enough for many.
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  #809  
Old 15.05.2014, 21:11
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Well as I posted earlier "maybe we will even see women with a proper role in Sechseläuten."

A large part of the Swiss cultural heritage seems to be to keep ladies in their place - chained to the kitchen.

For example, the conflict between Blocher and Widmer-Schlumpf; if she had stayed in the SVP then she would never have been allowed in the Bundesrat to do the excellent work she has done. §

Maybe you also want to keep ladies "in their place"?
I am not going to claim the SVP is leading in empowering women, one can easily see that when looking at the number of SVP women in the Nationalrat or positions within the party. But as amogles said: This election had absolutely nothing to do with sexism, only with fights within the party. This is completely ridiculous. Rita Fuhrer was nominated by the SVP as candidate for the Bundesrat 7 years before Widmer-Schlumpf was elected and they would gladly take Madame Rickli (shudder).

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But despite the sophistication and intelligence of the people, the anti-minaret initiative passed.

Apparently the single picture on a single poster was enough for many.
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The fact certain simplified, panic inducing, xeonophobic or rasist rhetorics are allowed (and delivered to my mail box without me agreeing) resulted in people voting certain way.
What I think about this kind of argumentation can be read here. I am not going to repeat myself all over again.

Let's just say that I strongly disagree with the idea that it is possible to turn of human brains by sticking coloured pictures into mailboxes. If this was the case all kind of democracy should be forbidden immediately.

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I'd say direct democracy is great, why not, after common decency has been supervised.
"Common decency has been supervised". That phrase makes me shudder. This sounds like something a mad dictator might say. It is right up there with "re-education camps" and "guardians of public moral".

And who should be supervising this? The politburo?
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Old 15.05.2014, 21:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Thanks for the poetry, you know I love it..I miss seeing workers on public transport in their dirty blue overalls with a dogeared beat up poetry book sticking out of their pocket, on their way to work 5am, when I was a nurse on my way to my shift. ( thanks for K. May, I had gone thru 18 novels of his by the time I turned 11, it was awesome. And Dumas!)

Very few books really published here, Romands mostly import French production. The art that accompanies local book publication, ugh, we had better high school weekly. Competition would set higher standards, even in silly (apparently not so needed, who needs art in mega pragmatic culture with homogenized palate) stuff like kids books and textbooks. There are quality people, but I think they shift themselves to NYC or somewhere after a while..

Anyways. Amogles, I lived in the US, Berlin and the UK. I miss all but can certainly appreciate the potential that is here. Potential. I wouldn't say locals are so naieve to have grass is always greener outlook on all, at least those I know. I think they are getting tired of having their taxes wasted on stuff that will have to be re-adjusted a short moment after it's been expensively messed up. If Swiss gov regrets the vote (VD has published an official apology to foreigners right few days after the fed vote), then it should invest in civilised and profound political debate and go after those who manipulate the sway-able crowds too easily. A racist, discriminatory or xenophobic card would be an easy start. They haven't done it. It costs us all a lot of money. Even those who don't vote.

Don't let me start on chicks and their support. Thanks, marton.
I could not agree more.
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Old 15.05.2014, 22:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I am not going to claim the SVP is leading in empowering women, one can easily see that when looking at the number of SVP women in the Nationalrat or positions within the party. But as amogles said: This election had absolutely nothing to do with sexism, only with fights within the party. This is completely ridiculous. Rita Fuhrer was nominated by the SVP as candidate for the Bundesrat 7 years before Widmer-Schlumpf was elected and they would gladly take Madame Rickli (shudder).




What I think about this kind of argumentation can be read here. I am not going to repeat myself all over again.

Let's just say that I strongly disagree with the idea that it is possible to turn of human brains by sticking coloured pictures into mailboxes. If this was the case all kind of democracy should be forbidden immediately.


"Common decency has been supervised". That phrase makes me shudder. This sounds like something a mad dictator might say. It is right up there with "re-education camps" and "guardians of public moral".

And who should be supervising this? The politburo?

About "I am not going to claim the SVP is leading in empowering women,...."
Name some SVP initiatives that have the object of empowering women??


There are a number of women who have achieved senior roles in the SVP; I would say this is a reflection of their ability to manage conflict and win rather than an SVP Policy.
As you brought up the topic of Madame Rickli - she was the lady who suffered burn out soon after scoring many more election votes than Mr Blocher ; I am sure she had not come under any pressure resulting from this event .........


Or let us look at the Family fiscal initiative by SVP last year that was designed to keep women at home.


Anyway I repeat ; if Widmer-Schlumpf had stayed in the SVP then she would never have been allowed in the Bundesrat to do the excellent work she has done. Quoting the names of other women who were put forward is not relevant.
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Old 15.05.2014, 23:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "I am not going to claim the SVP is leading in empowering women,...."
Name some SVP initiatives that have the object of empowering women??
Why should I? As said: We agree on that.

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There are a number of women who have achieved senior roles in the SVP; I would say this is a reflection of their ability to manage conflict and win rather than an SVP Policy.
As you brought up the topic of Madame Rickli - she was the lady who suffered burn out soon after scoring many more election votes than Mr Blocher ; I am sure she had not come under any pressure resulting from this event .........
In the last Nationalrat-elections an other woman (can't remember the name) was put on a very good position, but the voters did not like her. Why would they foster young women, just to shoot them down afterwards? That does not make much sense. There are not many of them, but to claim the ones who are successful within the party are somehow bullied into a burn out is a very interesting interpretation of what is happening.

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Or let us look at the Family fiscal initiative by SVP last year that was designed to keep women at home.
I agree. Although it could have also been solved like in the case of Blochers daughter who is leading a company while her husband is managing the family.

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Anyway I repeat ; if Widmer-Schlumpf had stayed in the SVP then she would never have been allowed in the Bundesrat to do the excellent work she has done. Quoting the names of other women who were put forward is not relevant.
I agree that she would never have been allowed in the Bundesrat. But because she was on the wrong wing inside of the SVP and for no other reason.
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Old 16.05.2014, 00:19
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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A lot of issues are highly complex. The black sheep was a caricature reducing a somewhat complex issue to a simpler one. But you can't really explain a complex issue with a single picture on a single poster. For that you need nuanced debate. But you still can't put that nuanced deabte on your poster. I think all parties are to some extent guilty of simplifying things and assuming people are stupid and simple. But people are neither stupid or simple and they do understand issues.
The problem is, I don't think they do. Or, they do not want to think far enough. Otherwise they would see that the vote mainly penalizes the locals that have been put in an artificially created amnesty, on a borrowed time and in a time limit. Which is not gonna make things better but worse, in a long run. Even by keeping the so called "bad guys" outside the borders. Instead of given a chance to compete and rely on gov investments in edu and ability to equip people in order to compete. Simple quality control, fed standarts put in place. The voting has been already manipulated and exemptions asked for, and the vote hasn't been done more than a few weeks ago.. Do voters even know? Do those simplistic posters mention that? And that these corrective processes and negotiations that will take us where we were before but with damaged reputation and decreased number of independent academic and enterpreneurial activities, will come with a giant price tag? Shortly, intellectual independence is inconvenient and is not supported enough. We are back to improving school system, competitive starting points and gov spending on kid/worker per capita.

The campaigns are incompetent and do not reach the level of your regular high school debate club. Simplifying things has victimizing results. Creating stigmas that will yield certain ethnic or place of origine, women, or now - even just mere different passport - unemployable, even if quotas did not exist. Why would anyone control that, right? Since it's easier letting people feed off this panic. Just letting this fear inducing campaign happen makes things easy, without gov having to do anything to improve for the people. Keeping those out who manifest their governements invested in them more, or, they had better chances, is just going to work for a short time. Those potential competent newcomers will either make it here or move on, without the hustle, despite the challenge and wealth they could bring, they will just do it in another place. It's too bad for the environment here, though, since im some places, that quality comparison served as the only quality control.

It's not only internationally, that things are done this ostrich way, but intercantonally, in terms of licensing. Instead of reasonable fed standards in place, working in all cantons, suporting mobility, etc.
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Old 16.05.2014, 00:51
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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But despite the sophistication and intelligence of the people, the anti-minaret initiative passed.

Apparently the single picture on a single poster was enough for many.
You are confusing sophistication with sharing your point of view.
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Old 16.05.2014, 01:04
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The campaigns are incompetent and do not reach the level of your regular high school debate club. Simplifying things has victimizing results.
We've been over this before. Show me a party or a country even where politicians don't stigmatize and scare.

What politician says "there's nothing wrong with this country and there's nothing wrong with the other parties and if you vote for them, nothing bad will happen"

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Those potential competent newcomers will either make it here or move on, without the hustle, despite the challenge and wealth they could bring, they will just do it in another place. It's too bad for the environment hee, though, since im some places, that quality comparison served as the only quality control.
Seems to be working quite well so far. 25% foreigners and not that many packing their bags to leave. Methinks you are projecting spectres where there aren't any.
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Old 16.05.2014, 07:37
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But despite the sophistication and intelligence of the people, the anti-minaret initiative passed.

Apparently the single picture on a single poster was enough for many.
The Anti-Minaret Initiative succeeded due to an alliance of the right with leftwing feminists. The YES vote would have stayed clearly below 48% but with the Suffragettes it got a narrow majority. You in the past few years could see that strange alliance of SVP with the FarLeft both in the Federal Parliaments in Bern and the Cantonal Parliament in Zürich
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Old 16.05.2014, 11:03
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The Anti-Minaret Initiative succeeded due to an alliance of the right with leftwing feminists. The YES vote would have stayed clearly below 48% but with the Suffragettes it got a narrow majority. You in the past few years could see that strange alliance of SVP with the FarLeft both in the Federal Parliaments in Bern and the Cantonal Parliament in Zürich
I believe that the traditional left right model of politics is increasingly breaking down in favor of the two axis model more akin to the Nolan chart. Feminist positions are not always as purely left wing as they make out to be, and of course the svp is a party that hops around quite a bit with regard to the positions it takes. I don't think this is the last time that we will be seeing such unexpected alliances.
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Old 16.05.2014, 11:15
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Today, with some recent votes in Switzerland going the other way, it is the right wing all over Europe that has suddenly discovered its enthusaism for direct democracy and the left that is trying its best to unsay what it previously preached and calling for somebody other than "the people" to have the final say - preferbly this "somebody" should be a leftie.
Have you read the book "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg? - I think you may find it interesting ... I certainly did!
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Old 16.05.2014, 11:33
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Have you read the book "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg? - I think you may find it interesting ... I certainly did!
No I haven't. But I will check it out.
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Old 16.05.2014, 18:48
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Those potential competent newcomers...
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Seems to be working quite well so far. 25% foreigners...
Those who are here already? Who got here under different rules? You are comparing two different things.

If it's working well, why change it then. Why introduce discriminatory measures that will only put locals out of nicely available learning curve and a pretty unintrusive reality check.

The discourse runs in circles..:

Scenario A.
-Let's make it better here.
-It's those foreigners. Must be them. Vote them out.

Scenario B.
-Let's make it better here.
-Have you seen any country less bad than here? Chill.

It's not complex. It's simple, both assume zero activity, zero investments and responsability for any improvements. Again, I am not worried about those who made it here and often flaunt it here on EF as their life victory. It's impressive..I will always support them. I am worried about people in weaker positions, their aging spouses who's CVs are sleeping, their kids who just got their door shut for a bunch of Erasmus programs, local kids who planned academic exchange programs and will have to pay a lot more, profs who will not be measured up against decent performances of foreign go getters, and then fall out from the nasty campaign that dragged for too long for people to suceed in feeding more xenophobia.

The public debate is so uneventful and dumbed down, it does not leave much space for illusions indicating that those voters, caught up in a weak moment, will not stay in it..At least the pointless costs and EU retaliation will make gov hopefully realize how to efficiently support their people.
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erasmus, european union, fmop, horizon, immigration, masseneinwanderung, vote




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