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  #821  
Old 16.05.2014, 21:00
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

From where I sit the extreme left and the extreme right seem to have converging methods; I mean they both want to ban things or stop things - they do not put forward positive proposals to improve life?
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  #822  
Old 16.05.2014, 21:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The public debate is so uneventful and dumbed down,...
The public debate isn't all about SVP posters and leafleting, though.

There were enough current affairs programmes covering it as well as editorial in the press giving various viewpoints for the weeks and months running up to the vote.

Of course there will be people that are clueless or can't be arsed to inform themselves about upcoming votes, as well as those who are fully informed and aware of all the implications.

I just don't see how Switzerland's campaigning is so very different to those of its surrounding nations to deserve such (subjective?) contempt.
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Old 16.05.2014, 23:06
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Scenario B.
-Let's make it better here.
-Have you seen any country less bad than here? Chill.
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I just don't see how Switzerland's campaigning is so very different to those of its surrounding nations to deserve such (subjective?) contempt.
I know you don't see it. This is a perfect example of the attitude above. Why look into things, we might say things this country does not deserve..We'd get nowhere, really, if criticism was taken apriori negatively and not constructively. Everyone's assessment is subjective and based on one's prior experience and level of engagement. If the way campaigning is run here and political journalism is enough for you, good for you. Turns those I know off. Me too. Superfitial, blend, schematic, formulaic...(unethical, black sheep in my mailbox was absurd.)

Turning your head always abroad, to look for justification why things do not have to be better here..hmm. Too easy. I don't really care, I live here, want it good here. Surrounding nations don't come up with ad hoc discriminatory innitiatives against Swiss, so to use them as a point of comparison saying their political agenda is as unsophisticated as here, makes no real sense.
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Old 16.05.2014, 23:11
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I just don't see how Switzerland's campaigning is so very different to those of its surrounding nations to deserve such (subjective?) contempt.
Yes, the others have it crap too, except Germany, but does that make it right?
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Old 16.05.2014, 23:17
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Germany is good, but who cares? Even if it wasn't, (I find France frustrating and unreal, tbh, my excuses..), it's good at home, read world news only on home portal, the New Yorker from time to time, Harpers, to get more brain food..but it's irelevant. It's not a reason to not to have it better here, for people here. Substance. Not just narratives and descriptions. Opinions, please. (No blacksheep cop outs).
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Old 16.05.2014, 23:27
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Germany is good, but who cares? Even if it wasn't, (I find France frustrating and unreal, tbh, my excuses..), it's good at home, read world news only on home portal, the New Yorker from time to time, Harpers, to get more brain food..but it's irelevant. It's not a reason to not to have it better here, for people here. Substance. Not just narratives and descriptions. Opinions, please. (No blacksheep cop outs).
I find France and UK frustrating and unreal, but who cares. I take it here people don't feel threatened, it's easier to be detached when it feels like this extremist rhetorics is not actually aiming at you. Partly is explained by some Swiss duplicitous attitude that tones down any legitimate fear -oh, it's not you, you know, ( I was told - it's only those arrogant Germans, you know! We have nothing against anyone, least nice people like you). Mind mumbles.
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Old 16.05.2014, 23:44
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I find France and UK frustrating and unreal, but who cares. I take it here people don't feel threatened, it's easier to be detached when it feels like this extremist rhetorics is not actually aiming at you. Partly is explained by some Swiss duplicitous attitude that tones down any legitimate fear -oh, it's not you, you know, ( I was told - it's only those arrogant Germans, you know! We have nothing against anyone, least nice people like you). Mind mumbles.
Yeah. France and UK. Ego tripping. But who cares. Hahahahah...you made me chuckle. I feel Germans historically cannot have big political egos. Wonder if it's true. Where is our token German...

I just find it offensive, the level of patronizing and simplicism, towards the folks here. I think they get offered less than they deserve, which discredits the whole idea of making informed choices.
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Old 17.05.2014, 00:02
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I know you don't see it. This is a perfect example of the attitude above. Why look into things, we might say things this country does not deserve..We'd get nowhere, really, if criticism was taken apriori negatively and not constructively. Everyone's assessment is subjective and based on one's prior experience and level of engagement. If the way campaigning is run here and political journalism is enough for you, good for you. Turns those I know off. Me too. Superfitial, blend, schematic, formulaic...(unethical, black sheep in my mailbox was absurd.)

Turning your head always abroad, to look for justification why things do not have to be better here..hmm. Too easy. I don't really care, I live here, want it good here. Surrounding nations don't come up with ad hoc discriminatory innitiatives against Swiss, so to use them as a point of comparison saying their political agenda is as unsophisticated as here, makes no real sense.
I was also astonished by the image of the muslim woman with the veil in almost all the newspapers, just few months ago.

And then the stuff I find in my mailbox, I also find it outrageous.

As I find outrageous that sometimes our uni put adverts with the age limit (??), or the gender... (??)...

My first job was in UK, in the induction meeting they spoke about how any of these things would end one up getting sued...
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Old 17.05.2014, 00:06
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I was also astonished by the image of the muslim woman with the veil in almost all the newspapers, just few months ago.

And then the stuff I find in my mailbox, I also find it outrageous.

As I find outrageous that sometimes our uni put adverts with the age limit (??), or the gender... (??)...

My first job was in UK, in the induction meeting they spoke about how any of these things would end one up getting sued...
"OMG!! Like outragous!! Like astonished!! OMG, like can somebody just sue somebody already!?" --

What drama!
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Old 17.05.2014, 00:42
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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"OMG!! Like outragous!! Like astonished!! OMG, like can somebody just sue somebody already!?" --

What drama!
Drama? Because some legal system has rightly decided to protect potentially vulnerable social strata? Very down to earth and reasonable. It will happen here..slowly but finally. I hope ethnic origin of those commiting crimes will also disappear from regular journalism here, too.

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I was also astonished by the image of the muslim woman with the veil in almost all the newspapers, just few months ago.

And then the stuff I find in my mailbox, I also find it outrageous.

As I find outrageous that sometimes our uni put adverts with the age limit (??), or the gender... (??)...

My first job was in UK, in the induction meeting they spoke about how any of these things would end one up getting sued...
I am no bra burner, and I consider US style feminist rhetorics unpleasant and pointlessly deffensive, militant, unconstructive. But, some of the cliches here, in the papers, of working moms, rights for opinion, respected place at home and work..ugh. 50s.

Uni might publish ads with positive discrimination in mind, they have quotas. Voila..here we go again. Quotas. I actually think positive discrimination damages weak groups even more. While stereotyping and discrimination in public texts and speeches should be chased out. Including tasteless jokes on chicks, by political officials.
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Old 17.05.2014, 00:48
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Drama? Because some legal system has rightly decided to protect potentially vulnerable social strata? Very down to earth and reasonable. It will happen here..slowly but finally. I hope ethnic origin of those commiting crimes will also disappear from regular journalism here, too.

I am no bra burner, and I consider US style feminist rhetorics unpleasant and pointlessly deffensive, militant, unconstructive. But, some of the cliches here, in the papers, of working moms, rights for opinion, respected place at home and work..ugh. 50s.

Uni might publish ads with positive discrimination in mind, they have quotas. Voila..here we go again. Quotas. I actually think positive discrimination damages weak groups even more. While stereotyping and discrimination in public texts and speeches should be chased out. Including tasteless jokes on chicks, etc.
Well I cannot relate to a thing you are saying. I don't know who you hang out with, or where you are, but I have not seen any disrespect from Swiss men towards their wives, or other women for that matter. I live in a little town outside of Bern btw, and work in Bern. I have actually seen more respect for women here than I have seen in Australia. The Swiss men i know practically live to serve the women in their lives and are very courteous to other women. So sorry, what your carrying on about just sounds like over-dramatization to me!
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Old 17.05.2014, 00:59
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I know you don't see it. This is a perfect example of the attitude above. Why look into things, we might say things this country does not deserve..We'd get nowhere, really, if criticism was taken apriori negatively and not constructively. Everyone's assessment is subjective and based on one's prior experience and level of engagement. If the way campaigning is run here and political journalism is enough for you, good for you. Turns those I know off. Me too. Superficial, bland, schematic, formulaic...(unethical, black sheep in my mailbox was absurd.)

Turning your head always abroad, to look for justification why things do not have to be better here..hmm. Too easy. I don't really care, I live here, want it good here. Surrounding nations don't come up with ad hoc discriminatory innitiatives against Swiss, so to use them as a point of comparison saying their political agenda is as unsophisticated as here, makes no real sense.
On one hand you dismiss anyone looking at other countries' examples as "too easy" but you never miss an opportunity throughout your posts on the forum to state how things are always better in your home country.

It is easy to criticise and discredit political systems without having to provide any back up, isn't it?

Ironically, politicians all round the world employ the same tactics. Throw enough criticism around, some of it sticks. You don't need facts or figures, sowing doubt in the mind of the people is enough.

Trot out the SVP-leaflet-in-the-mailbox sensationalism for good measure - nobody is going to raise their head above the parapet to comment on that one. Yes, it was absurd material but it wasn't the ONLY political campaign material.

"Political journalism is hoodwinking the voters - all my friends think so, too". Great! Why? How?

That, for me, makes no sense.
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Old 17.05.2014, 01:00
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Well I cannot relate to a thing you are saying. I don't know who you hang out with, or where you are, but I have not seen any disrespect from Swiss men towards their wives, or other women for that matter. I live in a little town outside of Bern btw, and work in Bern. I have actually seen more respect for women here than I have seen in Australia. The Swiss men i know practically live to serve the women in their lives and are very courteous to other women. So sorry, what your carrying on about just sounds like over-dramatization to me!
That's an interesting reality not everyone has. Good for you and them!

Now, read my post again, I talked about cliches and symbolism present in media here and in political jargon. I had it saved actually, collected some flyers and political papers that showed up in my mailbox, gave some good part of great study material for my research in media manipulation, rhetorics and comm class. Especially the photos of kids being what looked like prison cell in the campaign against creche increase, I think it was (because women should stay home).
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Old 17.05.2014, 01:26
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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That's an interesting reality not everyone has. Good for you and them!

Now, read my post again, I talked about cliches and symbolism present in media here and in political jargon. I had it saved actually, collected some flyers and political papers that showed up in my mailbox, gave some good part of great study material for my research in media manipulation, rhetorics and comm class. Especially the photos of kids being what looked like prison cell in the campaign against creche increase, I think it was (because women should stay home).
Heh, "media manipulation" ... seems like your already becoming a pro at it by placing a fairytale, LaLaLand spin on my experiences - calling them an "interesting reality not everyone has". Well done!

Of course not everyone in the world, or in Switzerland, observes repect of women - and the same goes for respect of men! - But I am sure you would rather just stick to the female gender ...

I happen to think that it's a GOOD thing for parents to be able to care for their own kids! - I know that is a taboo thought amongst many so-called "progressive" circles these days - but there you have it!

I know Swiss mothers who are unhappy that they find themselves now having to work like their husbands to get by financially, while the kids miss out more and more on time with their parents - leading to added stress in the home. And yes, I, and many other parents, would rather that only one parent would have to work 100%, or both parents 50%, than both parents having to work 80% - 100%.

So what you see as "cliches and symbolism present in media here and in political jargon" may also be how some people ACTUALLY feel! Ever thought of that? Infants left alone in cribs ... yes, behind wooden or metal bars ... it happens. - I have seen it! As a parent I see putting my kids in "care" as a last resort - not that all childcare services are terrible, but at the end of the day there is a heck of a lot of trust involved, and you can almost never really know FULLY what is going on with your child or children. If my wife doesn't HAVE to be employed because I can bring in the budget, then that is fantastic - right!? Then she can give the children her full and undivided attention (which kids need) as well as look into her hobbies etc ... who knows, maybe she'll start some enterprising Ebay business selling stuff she is into ...

It seems to me like some people these days think it's cool to just bash people over the head for suggesting that women may indeed make the best ... well ... mothers of ... well ... their own children! - And if a woman WANTS to stay home and care for her kids and her household she is brandished as either being lazy, being brainwashed, being subdued by her husband or by society, or all of the above. That's not fair!
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Old 17.05.2014, 02:09
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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On one hand you dismiss anyone looking at other countries' examples as "too easy" but you never miss an opportunity throughout your posts on the forum to state how things are always better in your home country.

It is easy to criticise and discredit political systems without having to provide any back up, isn't it?

Ironically, politicians all round the world employ the same tactics. Throw enough criticism around, some of it sticks. You don't need facts or figures, sowing doubt in the mind of the people is enough.

Trot out the SVP-leaflet-in-the-mailbox sensationalism for good measure - nobody is going to raise their head above the parapet to comment on that one. Yes, it was absurd material but it wasn't the ONLY political campaign material.

"Political journalism is hoodwinking the voters - all my friends think so, too". Great! Why? How?

That, for me, makes no sense.
Sure it does not. Calm down, snookums. Let others have different opinion without this aggresive undertone, it's tiresome after those years. Sowing seeds of doubt? How would that be posible in this fairytale land? Are you serious? Well, at least you are poetic . Is this what you call people able to think for themselves?

Ok, I can share some thoughts. The imagery and low level of political discourse offends, I can't put it differently. Even in better programs, it's just clumsy. Professional magazines, local papers, superfitial work, a couple of interchangeable templates and recycled phrases, no creativity. Photos stereotype, it all reminds me some old leaflet campaign for dental health from 70s. It's interesting for me, but the cliches stick out. Especially the damaging, stigmatizing ones. Those should be out.

Now, having higher expectations does not mean I automatically imply home is better. Read my posts, I ripped on home earlier, fighting other, problematic issues. It only implies maybe I can think about stuff for myself and maybe I have done some work on it that I am not obliged in any way report, especially to some unpleasantly demanding frustrated strangers.

People need more quality. Those who will want to see this place threatened by those who think it's less than ideal here, will. I don't think if you really are after some concrete info, to be honest, but - there is a plenty of material publicly available on media cliches, manipulation and symbolism, pm me if you want to take a course, I took a great one at UniGe. I went to debates, I read papers, watch debates, radio is interesting too, type of humor, unkosher jokes. We share this with local friends, I am lucky to have found really nice, engaged ones. We sow seeds of..wait, no, we make eachother think and appreciate differences in opinions.

So. That "absurd material" is coming in far too often, while the level of political analysis does not improve too fast. Sensationalism? Naw..Back up? Do your homework if you care, people will not serve you stuff on a plate, just because you disagree and demand. You need stats? The unfortunate last vote stats are in this thread.
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  #836  
Old 17.05.2014, 02:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

MusicChick, did you watch their show? Unfortunately, most often than not I have to ask the other half to translate some lines for me, but I still have fun. Probably the only true critical&satirical voice of Switzerland, I was surprised there is such a thing here. Back home we criticise and ironise ourselves so much it became a modus vivendi...here..that's a rarity.
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Old 17.05.2014, 03:04
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

I know...same here. Couleur3 here has comedians doing these sketches on local stereotypes, it's really interesting.
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Old 17.05.2014, 09:11
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Sure it does not. Calm down, snookums. Let others have different opinion without this aggresive undertone, it's tiresome after those years. Sowing seeds of doubt? How would that be posible in this fairytale land? Are you serious? Well, at least you are poetic . Is this what you call people able to think for themselves?
Counter argument is not aggressive.

Calm down, snookums? Seriously?

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Ok, I can share some thoughts. The imagery and low level of political discourse offends, I can't put it differently. Even in better programs, it's just clumsy. Professional magazines, local papers, superfitial work, a couple of interchangeable templates and recycled phrases, no creativity. Photos stereotype, it all reminds me some old leaflet campaign for dental health from 70s. It's interesting for me, but the cliches stick out. Especially the damaging, stigmatizing ones. Those should be out.
Again - SVP poster/leaflet campaign was NOT the only campaign. Did you look at any other the other parties? Read the voting papers? Actually watch any of the TV coverage?

It's not all about SVP and their black sheep.

OK, I give up on that one. You clearly love to keep banging the SVP drum. (no aggression intended, just observation).

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Now, having higher expectations does not mean I automatically imply home is better. Read my posts, I ripped on home earlier, fighting other, problematic issues. It only implies maybe I can think about stuff for myself and maybe I have done some work on it that I am not obliged in any way report, especially to some unpleasantly demanding frustrated strangers.
How do you know your expectations are any higher than anyone else's?

I don't care that CZ is a political marvel and perfect in every way. Use the example, if it helps. My point was that you dismiss anyone using other countries as examples in their own discussion with a flippant "too easy". That's not fair.

My point was that the other countries surrounding Switzerland also have cracks and flaws in their political material and right wing parties that hate foreigners, despise the very concept of the EU, and would prefer women to "know their place", using fear tactics to ram their point home. Le Pen, anyone?

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People need more quality. Those who will want to see this place threatened by those who think it's less than ideal here, will. I don't think if you really are after some concrete info, to be honest, but - there is a plenty of material publicly available on media cliches, manipulation and symbolism, pm me if you want to take a course, I took a great one at UniGe. I went to debates, I read papers, watch debates, radio is interesting too, type of humor, unkosher jokes. We share this with local friends, I am lucky to have found really nice, engaged ones. We sow seeds of..wait, no, we make eachother think and appreciate differences in opinions.
Of course, politics anywhere could be improved in communication and integrity. I am under no illusions that it is less that perfect. If I wanted "perfect" I should move to CZ, obviously

In the meantime, uncomfortable as you find the SVP black sheep, the current political environment means that people are free to spout mostly what they feel like without being shot in the street or imprisoned and their families murdered. It's the rough and smooth of living in a democracy. Monster Raving Loony Party, anyone?
If the population chooses to align itself with any of those "uncomfortable" campaigns, you have to accept the will of the democracy. Anything else is edging towards dictatorship.

When you start stamping out the "uncomfortable" politics and replace with something that only people who have been on a course at the UniGe can understand, you are at the thin end of the wedge.

No, Switzerland isn't perfect but probably more or less matches most of the other countries in Europe (except the gold standard CZ, obviously) in terms of political rhetoric, election tactics, etc., and really doesn't deserve the vitriol being served up in this thread.

But yes, it could be better. It's always easy to criticise but the real solution is to make a change yourself. Become Swiss, make your mark on the voting papers, make that change. Be warned, though - there's a shitload of votes to get through in a year.


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So. That "absurd material" is coming in far too often, while the level of political analysis does not improve too fast. Sensationalism? Naw..Back up? Do your homework if you care, people will not serve you stuff on a plate, just because you disagree and demand. You need stats? The unfortunate last vote stats are in this thread.
Not sure what your point is on this one.
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Old 17.05.2014, 09:35
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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In the meantime, uncomfortable as you find the SVP black sheep, the current political environment means that people are free to spout mostly what they feel like without being shot in the street or imprisoned and their families murdered. It's the rough and smooth of living in a democracy. Monster Raving Loony Party, anyone?
If the population chooses to align itself with any of those "uncomfortable" campaigns, you have to accept the will of the democracy. Anything else is edging towards dictatorship.
That's not democracy, that's gullible people trapped to align themselves with despicable fascist style propaganda,that should be legally banned.
You can always find a reasonable tone to discuss immigration, or reducing the levels of it, that's what the civilised world it's supposed to do.
I understand why MC is bringing up CZ into discussions, it's amazing how a country which was behind the iron curtain for so long it picked up so quickly, in so many respects, in fact I would insult them to say that they only "caught up" with some lost standards of the West. What are the excuses for these parts of Europe? Too much immigration, right, that was good only when things were going well.
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Old 17.05.2014, 09:46
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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That's not democracy, that's gullible people trapped to align themselves with despicable fascist style propaganda,that should be legally banned.
You can always find a reasonable tone to discuss immigration, or reducing the levels of it, that's what the civilised world it's supposed to do.
I understand why MC is bringing up CZ into discussions, it's amazing how a country which was behind the iron curtain for so long it picked up so quickly, in so many respects, in fact I would insult them to say that they only "picked up". What are the excuses for these parts of Europe? Too much immigration, right, that was good only when things were going well.
I don't have a problem with bringing up another country to add to your discussion. That's fine, it adds body and context to the points.

I do have a problem with others being casually dismissed as using an "easy" argument when they do the same.

Of course the thinly veiled poster campaign was bollocks and in poor taste but look what it did! It got everyone talking about it. Job done. No further action needed. The SVP must have been laughing into their sleeves.
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