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  #841  
Old 17.05.2014, 10:38
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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That's not democracy, that's gullible people trapped to align themselves with despicable fascist style propaganda,that should be legally banned.
You can always find a reasonable tone to discuss immigration, or reducing the levels of it, that's what the civilised world it's supposed to do.
I understand why MC is bringing up CZ into discussions, it's amazing how a country which was behind the iron curtain for so long it picked up so quickly, in so many respects, in fact I would insult them to say that they only "caught up" with some lost standards of the West. What are the excuses for these parts of Europe? Too much immigration, right, that was good only when things were going well.
Wow - no way. I stand by the freedom for anybody to make their political point in whichever way they choose regardless of how insulting I, or anybody else, may find it. The key word in the last sentence is freedom. Once you start banning one viewpoint other viewpoints are likely to come into the crosshairs, perhaps even yours. I don't want to live in a society where, through fear of saying the wrong thing, everybody is pretending to sing from the same hymn sheet despite whatever personal opinions they hold.

As for the gullible blindly following propaganda, your assumption that other people lack the brains to make their own decisions I would find offensive, if I was actually able to be easily offended. Also, consider that banning political viewpoints and positions is propaganda in itself. It's effectively telling people "no, you not allowed to think like that". Well I'll damn well think in anyway I choose, and enjoy the freedom to do that. However, for me to be afforded that freedom I must accept that others will be free to hold opinions and viewpoints that I may find distasteful.

The negativity that I may experience through somebody holding and voicing an opinion that is for me is detestable pales into insignificance compared to the positivity that comes with the freedom for me to hold and voice my opinion regardless of whoever it may offend.

Personally I like the SVP campaigns for two reasons. The first is the morbid curiosity that I have to see what crap they're going to try and pull next, and the second, way more important reason, is that it reminds me that I live in a country where I am free to hold and voice my opinion.
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  #842  
Old 17.05.2014, 11:05
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Hmm.. I don't think demands for higher quality are vitriolic. Why be aggressive again and personal. Let people have their opinion, without anger. Yes, the campaign should be more demanding, people are worth more than stereotypical cliches and sleepiness, woken up by SVP on one hand and voting results that shock the world on the other.

Things are moving forward, they will move faster if people point out what they aren't happy with. Even if it rains on somebody else's, idyllic parade, or people demand stuff that is not present in neighboring countries. Unnecessary mind limits.

I appreciate people having enough intellectual independence to voice their opinions, they won't though, if each time the fact it doesn't fit some people's level of happiness with life here it creates a crusade. The ability to think for oneself and voice one's opinion is what ensure progress. Suggestions for improvements, there were quite a few here.

Dismissing critique because one has no right to vote? One still thinks.

The freedom of expression is important. What to do, though, when those weak members of society get even weaker, due to being used in simplifying and bully rhetorics, so weak that people vote them out of society. Exclusion. It just happened. That's what quotas are, they affect those already here, too, indirectly... I think there are my limits of supporting other people's right to be heard, when letting somebody come up with a speech damaging those already perceived negatively to the point if not being respected at all. Not even my own egoistic interest in absurdity and bizarre enough moments will justify the fact that some people will not be let to take part at the round table. Which is the danger of letting damaging discriminatory discourse happen.
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  #843  
Old 17.05.2014, 11:13
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Also, consider that banning political viewpoints and positions is propaganda in itself. It's effectively telling people "no, you not allowed to think like that". Well I'll damn well think in anyway I choose, and enjoy the freedom to do that. .
Why I'm not surprised at all by all this diatribe.
Do you also think it would have been a bad thing to ban a certain political movement around the second world war? It started as a freedom of speech, nothing more.
"Your freedom ends where my freedom begins".
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Personally I like the SVP campaigns for two reasons. The first is the morbid curiosity that I have to see what crap they're going to try and pull next, and the second, way more important reason, is that it reminds me that I live in a country where I am free to hold and voice my opinion.

Except if it's critical towards the Swiss. Well, you're still free to do so but it's like barking up the wrong tree.
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Old 17.05.2014, 11:30
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Hmm.. I don't think demands for higher quality are vitriolic. Why be aggressive again and personal. Let people have their opinion, without anger. Yes, the campaign should be more demanding, people are worth more than stereotypical cliches and sleepiness, woken up by SVP on one hand and voting results that shock the world on the other.

Things are moving forward, they will move faster if people point out what they aren't happy with. Even if it rains on somebody else's, idyllic parade, or people demand stuff that is not present in neighboring countries. Unnecessary mind limits.

I appreciate people having enough intellectual independence to voice their opinions, they won't though, if each time the fact it doesn't fit some people's level of happiness with life here it creates a crusade. The ability to think for oneself and voice one's opinion is what ensure progress. Suggestions for improvements, there were quite a few here.

Dismissing critique because one has no right to vote? One still thinks.

The freedom of expression is important. What to do, though, when those weak members of society get even weaker, due to being used in simplifying and bully rhetorics, so weak that people vote them out of society. Exclusion. It just happened. That's what quotas are, they affect those already here, too, indirectly... I think there are my limits of supporting other people's right to be heard, when letting somebody come up with a speech damaging those already perceived negatively to the point if not being respected at all. Not even my own egoistic interest in absurdity and bizarre enough moments will justify the fact that some people will not be let to take part at the round table. Which is the danger of letting damaging discriminatory discourse happen.
It's vitriolic to demand a higher quality of the public debate on different themes, but not vitriolic to proliferate the hate discourse. That's curious, to say the least.

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The negativity that I may experience through somebody holding and voicing an opinion that is for me is detestable pales into insignificance compared to the positivity that comes with the freedom for me to hold and voice my opinion regardless of whoever it may offend.
.
Of course. Let's all of us do that, what the world needs is more assertive people, it's getting annoying that so few folks lack the courage to express themselves.
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Old 17.05.2014, 12:08
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

I strongly believe in democracy. That people can inform themselves and make educated decisions and are not just sheep that can be easily controlled. If this was the case we should get rid of democracy.

I understand that the level of freedom of speech that exists in Switzerland might be confusing for people from other social backgrounds and especially from very young democracies where not many generations exist that grew up with these principles.

While I find the propaganda of the SVP disgusting, I am a strong proponent of freedom of speech. I think it is a strong requirement to democracy. The Swiss system is not perfect, but it worked better than most looking at the last ~160 years. It might need some getting used to, but I am positive that it is very important that every last idiot has to be able to articulate their opinion as well.
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  #846  
Old 17.05.2014, 12:34
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Right. Where were we..It's hard to keep the edge while stuffin' myself with a cheesecake.

I think there will always be certain unwillingness of general public to ask questions. Simplistic discriminatory hate speech and symbolism is not only dangerous because of the indirect fall out, that will show only gradually, in racist behavior, schools, employability linked to ethnicity, etc.

But because it drowns out the real issues, and mainly accountability. Dumbing down the debate (it's the foreigners fault, close the borders, or look around, all countries around do it passaby, why should we improve..) is convenient. SVP and their shock tactics were debated, people were not putting demands on those who should be held accountable and answer the question why the situation the way it is, ie what makes local population not as competitive on the job market, sans the crutches like quotas, that foreign labor succeeds so easily. It's not just competitive salaries.. it's skills, ability to outperform, quality control implemented and functioning. Why is the situ the way it is, who should be held accountable, what needs to be done to correct it.

There's still this spirit that I have hard time breaking in my professional life that asking questions does not translate to being impolite, indisciplined or disrespectful. I think there are cultures that attach themselves to hierarchy and rank, more than others. Despite their intense effort to from afar come across as independent. As a country maybe. As individuals..too risk adverse to question, sometimes. Which brings us again to performance. Questioning is good. That's the true value of freedom of speech, that enriches. Not letting some attention yodels spit mindless offences at minorities.
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Old 17.05.2014, 12:48
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I understand that the level of freedom of speech that exists in Switzerland might be confusing for people from other social backgrounds and especially from very young democracies where not many generations exist that grew up with these principles.
.
Not at all, it seems that you don't know much about certain countries. I think that the first and the best thing vastly addressed, up to this day, was and is the freedom of speech.
Again, what we see here is NOT the freedom of speech we would encourage in our own countries, in fact there are stronger and stronger reactions from the civil society against any kind of deviations coming from the politicians. If we can, why don't you. No excuse, sorry.
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Old 17.05.2014, 12:51
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Hmm..I think young democracies were desperately pining for critical, intelligent official political debate to be rocked to sleep by clichés with the occasional wake up call of primitive extremism.

Other things certainly suck there, but public debate and level of edu and info circulating, do not. It's all people have. The dark times are still so fresh. It's too expensive to wait for outcomes without forward thinking. I miss that though an environment of everyone being clever but a complete nihilist (ok, before people flip..i'm being facetious) gets old too, especially if one is raised to question and desire to improve, show civil responsibility, etc.
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Old 17.05.2014, 13:06
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Not at all, it seems that you don't know much about certain countries. I think that the first and the best thing vastly addressed, up to this day, was and is the freedom of speech.
I am talking of the influence of freedom of speech on votes - or their little brother: elections. If almost no-one exists in a country over 45 that grew up in a democratic system I reckon this a "young democracy".

You can have freedom of speech without democracy and you can have "democracy" without freedom of speech. I am talking about the combination. Go on. Educate me. What do I not know.

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Again, what we see here is NOT the freedom of speech we would encourage in our own countries, in fact there are stronger and stronger reactions from the civil society against any kind of deviations coming from the politicians. If we can, why don't you. No excuse, sorry.
"Stronger reactions from the civil society against any kind of deviations"? In Switzerland? I am curious.

Please elaborate - and no I don't mean something that starts with "Recently in the local Migros...". You are talking about a trend here so there must be some observable facts that are not based on Anecdotal evidence.

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If we can, why don't you. No excuse, sorry.
Can what?
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Old 17.05.2014, 13:11
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Hmm..I think young democracies were desperately pining for critical, intelligent official political debate to be rocked to sleep by clichés with the occasional wake up call of primitive extremism.

Other things certainly suck there, but public debate and level of edu and info circulating, do not. It's all people have. The dark times are still so fresh. It's too expensive to wait for outcomes without forward thinking. I miss that though an environment of everyone being clever but a complete nihilist gets old too, especially if one is raised to question and desire to improve, show civil responsability, etc.
Of course, but what we consider to be primitive extremism there is more like the accepted norm here. I certainly was fed up with the level of self-criticism from home, I still am, sometimes, because people compare things with the ideals that are lost in the West, I agree that there's a high level of education but also (still) a high level of idealism. We're trying somehow to find our own way, but still cling to some cliches.
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Old 17.05.2014, 13:12
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Why I'm not surprised at all by all this diatribe.
Do you also think it would have been a bad thing to ban a certain political movement around the second world war? It started as a freedom of speech, nothing more.
"Your freedom ends where my freedom begins".
While it may be true that said party rose to prominence as a result of freedom of speech, part of the process whereby it seized and consolidated it's power was by removing it - effectively eliminating any opposition and dissent and producing a society that through fear prevented anybody from speaking out. The exact antithesis of my particular stance.

That really doesn't make for a good counterargument against my position.


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Not at all, it seems that you don't know much about certain countries. I think that the first and the best thing vastly addressed, up to this day, was and is the freedom of speech.
Again, what we see here is NOT the freedom of speech we would encourage in our own countries, in fact there are stronger and stronger reactions from the civil society against any kind of deviations coming from the politicians. If we can, why don't you. No excuse, sorry.
I’m afraid that you can’t have types of freedom of speech. You either have it or you don’t. Any limitation placed on freedom of speech means that you no longer have it.
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  #852  
Old 17.05.2014, 13:31
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Of course, but what we consider to be primitive extremism there is more like the accepted norm here. I certainly was fed up with the level of self-criticism from home, I still am, sometimes, because people compare things with the ideals that are lost in the West, I agree that there's a high level of education but also (still) a high level of idealism. We're trying somehow to find our own way, but still cling to some cliches.
I am not sure. If by cliche and idealism you mean banning hate speech, because it's proven to damage certain social groups which secondarily damages the quality of life of the entire community - gimme that kind of decency over rednecks running around stuffing sickening things in my mail. Nothing can excuse damaging quality of life of some people here, because their positions weakens due to political laziness. If things are well defined by law treating individuals, in terms of civil conduct, it can be easily treated as well for the public language and addressing minorities.If there was a political will, that is.
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Old 17.05.2014, 13:32
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Heh, "media manipulation" ... seems like your already becoming a pro at it by placing a fairytale, LaLaLand spin on my experiences - calling them an "interesting reality not everyone has". Well done!

Of course not everyone in the world, or in Switzerland, observes repect of women - and the same goes for respect of men! - But I am sure you would rather just stick to the female gender ...

I happen to think that it's a GOOD thing for parents to be able to care for their own kids! - I know that is a taboo thought amongst many so-called "progressive" circles these days - but there you have it!

I know Swiss mothers who are unhappy that they find themselves now having to work like their husbands to get by financially, while the kids miss out more and more on time with their parents - leading to added stress in the home. And yes, I, and many other parents, would rather that only one parent would have to work 100%, or both parents 50%, than both parents having to work 80% - 100%.

So what you see as "cliches and symbolism present in media here and in political jargon" may also be how some people ACTUALLY feel! Ever thought of that? Infants left alone in cribs ... yes, behind wooden or metal bars ... it happens. - I have seen it! As a parent I see putting my kids in "care" as a last resort - not that all childcare services are terrible, but at the end of the day there is a heck of a lot of trust involved, and you can almost never really know FULLY what is going on with your child or children. If my wife doesn't HAVE to be employed because I can bring in the budget, then that is fantastic - right!? Then she can give the children her full and undivided attention (which kids need) as well as look into her hobbies etc ... who knows, maybe she'll start some enterprising Ebay business selling stuff she is into ...

It seems to me like some people these days think it's cool to just bash people over the head for suggesting that women may indeed make the best ... well ... mothers of ... well ... their own children! - And if a woman WANTS to stay home and care for her kids and her household she is brandished as either being lazy, being brainwashed, being subdued by her husband or by society, or all of the above. That's not fair!
Fine example of the type of Chauvinist thinking that ladies here complain about.
I treasure "‘she can give the children her full and undivided attention (which kids need) as well as look into her hobbies"
Decent of you to allow the ladies to have their hobbies at home even if it does deprive the world of another Merkel or Widmer-Schlumpf or many other examples.
You clearly do not think ladies should have careers; stay in your place - child raising and hobbies is all!
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Old 17.05.2014, 13:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Counter argument is not aggressive.

Calm down, snookums? Seriously?



Again - SVP poster/leaflet campaign was NOT the only campaign. Did you look at any other the other parties? Read the voting papers? Actually watch any of the TV coverage?

It's not all about SVP and their black sheep.

OK, I give up on that one. You clearly love to keep banging the SVP drum. (no aggression intended, just observation).



How do you know your expectations are any higher than anyone else's?

I don't care that CZ is a political marvel and perfect in every way. Use the example, if it helps. My point was that you dismiss anyone using other countries as examples in their own discussion with a flippant "too easy". That's not fair.

My point was that the other countries surrounding Switzerland also have cracks and flaws in their political material and right wing parties that hate foreigners, despise the very concept of the EU, and would prefer women to "know their place", using fear tactics to ram their point home. Le Pen, anyone?



Of course, politics anywhere could be improved in communication and integrity. I am under no illusions that it is less that perfect. If I wanted "perfect" I should move to CZ, obviously

In the meantime, uncomfortable as you find the SVP black sheep, the current political environment means that people are free to spout mostly what they feel like without being shot in the street or imprisoned and their families murdered. It's the rough and smooth of living in a democracy. Monster Raving Loony Party, anyone?
If the population chooses to align itself with any of those "uncomfortable" campaigns, you have to accept the will of the democracy. Anything else is edging towards dictatorship.

When you start stamping out the "uncomfortable" politics and replace with something that only people who have been on a course at the UniGe can understand, you are at the thin end of the wedge.

No, Switzerland isn't perfect but probably more or less matches most of the other countries in Europe (except the gold standard CZ, obviously) in terms of political rhetoric, election tactics, etc., and really doesn't deserve the vitriol being served up in this thread.

But yes, it could be better. It's always easy to criticise but the real solution is to make a change yourself. Become Swiss, make your mark on the voting papers, make that change. Be warned, though - there's a shitload of votes to get through in a year.




Not sure what your point is on this one.

About "SVP poster/leaflet campaign was NOT the only campaign. Did you look at any other the other parties? Read the voting papers? Actually watch any of the TV coverage? "

Very true but when almost the whole country is plastered with these nasty red and black posters it does tend to drown out everything else.
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Old 17.05.2014, 13:39
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Very true but when almost the whole country is plastered with these nasty red and black posters it does tend to drown out everything else.
Which is precisely what has happened to this thread...

Ironic, isn't it?
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Old 17.05.2014, 13:40
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Fine example of the type of Chauvinist thinking that ladies here complain about.
I treasure "‘she can give the children her full and undivided attention (which kids need) as well as look into her hobbies"
Decent of you to allow the ladies to have their hobbies at home even if it does deprive the world of another Merkel or Widmer-Schlumpf or many other examples.
You clearly do not think ladies should have careers; stay in your place - child raising and hobbies is all!
It's cute though.. It's a bit anachronistic and one wouldn't read it elsewhere, not because of possible restriction of freedom of speech but because the world has moved on. Women and men.
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Old 17.05.2014, 14:04
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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It's cute though.. It's a bit anachronistic and one wouldn't read it elsewhere, not because of possible restriction of freedom of speech but because the world has moved on. Women and men.
"anachronistic " darn, wish I had thought of that word.

A blast from the past!
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Old 17.05.2014, 14:09
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I’m afraid that you can’t have types of freedom of speech. You either have it or you don’t. Any limitation placed on freedom of speech means that you no longer have it.
I don't think so. Two things quickly came to my mind, extremely harmful on individual level. Is slander or libel acceptable? No, we can all agree on that, that's sanctionable even in the Roman law. More often than not, the public political discourse reaches exactly this point(s): slander and/or libel, only on a different level. If you think that defining them as "types of freedom" it's destructive for the greater notion of "freedom", I guess we have to leave it at that.
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Old 17.05.2014, 14:19
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I don't think so. Two things quickly came to my mind, extremely harmful on individual level. Is slander or libel acceptable? No, we can all agree on that, that's sanctionable even in the Roman law. More often than not, the public political discourse reaches exactly this point(s): slander and/or libel, only on a different level. If you think that defining them as "types of freedom" it's destructive for the greater notion of "freedom", I guess we have to leave it at that.
I'm happy to - we're not going swing each other around to our respective opinions, nor are we going to meet in the middle, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 17.05.2014, 14:24
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I don't think so. Two things quickly came to my mind, extremely harmful on individual level. Is slander or libel acceptable? No, we can all agree on that, that's sanctionable even in the Roman law. More often than not, the public political discourse reaches exactly this point(s): slander and/or libel, only on a different level. If you think that defining them as "types of freedom" it's destructive for the greater notion of "freedom", I guess we have to leave it at that.
Law is the important word here. Switzerland is not only a democracy it is also a Rechtsstaat. Both libel and slander are an offence by Swiss law. Report to the police if you think this has been the case. There are other potential offences that could be reported as well like the ones against the Rassismus-Strafnorm.

But in the end the judge decides what is libel and what is by covered by freedom of speech. Not you. Not even under roman law.
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