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Old 17.05.2014, 14:25
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Oh, cmon doofs, argue with words! Frustrated neg rep is a cop out, I never do, then end up accidentally green reppin' when I try, it's hilarious. Again, opposing views don't mean vitriol.

Now, let's keep the debate as interesting as it is.
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  #862  
Old 17.05.2014, 15:18
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Law is the important word here. Switzerland is not only a democracy it is also a Rechtsstaat. Both libel and slander are an offence by Swiss law. Report to the police if you think this has been the case. There are other potential offences that could be reported as well like the ones against the Rassismus-Strafnorm.

But in the end the judge decides what is libel and what is by covered by freedom of speech. Not you.
Funny, I just imagined reporting SVP to police and judges eager to take actions ..
Anyhow, how many real cases of racism go to court? I guess if you're white you don't stand any chance anyway. I don't know anyone, of any colour or nationality, even thinking of doing that. People try to go on with their lives, make whatever they can and let the world spin, changes are coming very slowly.

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Oh, cmon doofs, argue with words! Frustrated neg rep is a cop out, I never do, then end up accidentally green reppin' when I try, it's hilarious. Again, opposing views don't mean vitriol.

Now, let's keep the debate as interesting as it is.
Vitriol...? I sense some serious perception issues there. Ah, such is life.
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  #863  
Old 17.05.2014, 18:02
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Fine example of the type of Chauvinist thinking that ladies here complain about.
I treasure "‘she can give the children her full and undivided attention (which kids need) as well as look into her hobbies"
Decent of you to allow the ladies to have their hobbies at home even if it does deprive the world of another Merkel or Widmer-Schlumpf or many other examples.
You clearly do not think ladies should have careers; stay in your place - child raising and hobbies is all!
Utter tripe!
This is precisely the kind of thing I am seeing cropping up all over the spectrum - those that have been preaching "tolerance" for decades are now turning into the intolerant - anything that does not fit their ideology is smeared with these words and terms. Ironic!

You don't listen for a second to what I actually said, you just see that I am not calling for women to leave the home and parents to hand over the kids to care services and suddenly I am a "Chauvinist"!? You completely misconstrue and distort a real-life observation I put forward and suddenly I am a "Chauvinist"!?
Are you serious when you say "deprive the world of another Merkel or Widmer-Schlumpf" -- !?!?! Really!?
Are you of the opinion that it is inconceivable for ANY woman who has birthed a child into this world to want to be it's mother by night AND by day!? Are you saying that ANY woman who wishes to be a parent is somehow stupid!? Are only women who run the rat race day in and day out, sucking up to an employer all week long, are they the only women who are to be respected or looked up to!? Is motherhood something to be besmirched? Is motherhood and parenthood something LESS than being employed or having a masters degree in X field!?

I happen to think that parenthood is the "career" that deserves the HIGHEST respect! I happen to think that parenthood is the BEST thing that parents can do for their kids! If I could I would deem it a privilege to care for my children while our budget flows in from elsewhere! I have absolutely NO issue with ANYONE, man or woman, following their dreams, and if that means getting a "career" and working the treadmill to bring in the budget then by all means go for it - and if that is to be a stay-at-home parent and look after the kids and the household, then I will not roll my eyes and besmirch your choice!

I think it's disgusting how society today largely finds it's "ok", or even "politically correct" to belittle women who spend their daylight hours caring for their kids! What a twisted mentality!
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Old 17.05.2014, 18:18
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Utter tripe!
This is precisely the kind of thing I am seeing cropping up all over the spectrum - those that have been preaching "tolerance" for decades are now turning into the intolerant - anything that does not fit their ideology is smeared with these words and terms. Ironic!

You don't listen for a second to what I actually said, you just see that I am not calling for women to leave the home and parents to hand over the kids to care services and suddenly I am a "Chauvinist"!? You completely misconstrue and distort a real-life observation I put forward and suddenly I am a "Chauvinist"!?
Are you serious when you say "deprive the world of another Merkel or Widmer-Schlumpf" -- !?!?! Really!?
Are you of the opinion that it is inconceivable for ANY woman who has birthed a child into this world to want to be it's mother by night AND by day!? Are you saying that ANY woman who wishes to be a parent is somehow stupid!? Are only women who run the rat race day in and day out, sucking up to an employer all week long, are they the only women who are to be respected or looked up to!? Is motherhood something to be besmirched? Is motherhood and parenthood something LESS than being employed or having a masters degree in X field!?

I happen to think that parenthood is the "career" that deserves the HIGHEST respect! I happen to think that parenthood is the BEST thing that parents can do for their kids! If I could I would deem it a privilege to care for my children while our budget flows in from elsewhere! I have absolutely NO issue with ANYONE, man or woman, following their dreams, and if that means getting a "career" and working the treadmill to bring in the budget then by all means go for it - and if that is to be a stay-at-home parent and look after the kids and the household, then I will not roll my eyes and besmirch your choice!

I think it's disgusting how society today largely finds it's "ok", or even "politically correct" to belittle women who spend their daylight hours caring for their kids! What a twisted mentality!
I agree with MC that what you wrote was both cute and amusing; it took me back to the 50's which was a good time for me.
Please do keep writing so; it is like a window into history
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Old 17.05.2014, 18:19
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I agree with MC that what you wrote was both cute and amusing; it took me back to the 50's which was a good time for me.
Please do keep writing so; it is like a window into history
Really? That's the best you have? Pffft...
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Old 17.05.2014, 21:07
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Concerning quotas,

I am a bit optimistic, as usual, but the fact that there are quotas will not impede really the possibility to compete to someone that is not Swiss. Actually, it will just rise the bureocracy level a lot, but for no reason an employer will take a worse candidate for nationality reasons, it is a suicide, in business terms. No candidate at all is better even that spend money on someone that would not be able to do the required job. The employers will take the best, Swiss or not.

These are things of the past, brought up again by an overly simplistic and idiotic vision of globalisation that is not there and will only cost time and money.
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Old 18.05.2014, 00:15
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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If by cliche and idealism you mean banning hate speech, because it's proven to damage certain social groups which secondarily damages the quality of life of the entire community - gimme that kind of decency over rednecks running around stuffing sickening things in my mail.
I get such junk mail from the PS and others all the time, can we ban that too?

Tom
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Old 18.05.2014, 00:20
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Decent of you to allow the ladies to have their hobbies at home even if it does deprive the world of another Merkel or Widmer-Schlumpf or many other examples.
Albeit negative ones.

Now, had you mentioned Thatcher, you might have had a point.

Tom
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Old 18.05.2014, 09:13
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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...but when almost the whole country is plastered with these nasty red and black posters it does tend to drown out everything else.
...only for those who can't be bothered to base their political perspectives on much more than posters.

Posters are (more often than not) the graffiti of politics, not the substance. Getting past them is an essential step towards developing an informed opinion.
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Old 18.05.2014, 09:20
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Concerning quotas,

I am a bit optimistic, as usual, but the fact that there are quotas will not impede really the possibility to compete to someone that is not Swiss. Actually, it will just rise the bureocracy level a lot, but for no reason an employer will take a worse candidate for nationality reasons, it is a suicide, in business terms. No candidate at all is better even that spend money on someone that would not be able to do the required job. The employers will take the best, Swiss or not.
.
The problem with these quotas is that they are really small for certain countries, they are very discriminatory. I'm generally less concerned about the hate speech that some parties have, than the administrative and institutional hate. And that's almost impossible to fight, because well, it is legal. The Swiss are not fools, they do it professionally.

You'll see how difficult it is to hire someone that doesn't belong to the privileged groups.
Talents are not wasted, they're only redirected to other places. It makes me giggle, but sometimes it could be easier to get a visa for working in the US.
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Old 18.05.2014, 10:15
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

The initiative has opened a can of worms that basically is overwhelming the political legal system.

In three years, either Bern or the Swiss people will have another vote on this. Expect the climate to have changed and the Swiss will by then have realized the initiative has brought more problems than positive change.
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  #872  
Old 18.05.2014, 18:15
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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...only for those who can't be bothered to base their political perspectives on much more than posters.

Posters are (more often than not) the graffiti of politics, not the substance. Getting past them is an essential step towards developing an informed opinion.
I agree but sadly almost all the Swiss I meet fail to do this.
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  #873  
Old 19.05.2014, 05:41
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Utter tripe!
This is precisely the kind of thing I am seeing cropping up all over the spectrum - those that have been preaching "tolerance" for decades are now turning into the intolerant - anything that does not fit their ideology is smeared with these words and terms. Ironic!

You don't listen for a second to what I actually said, you just see that I am not calling for women to leave the home and parents to hand over the kids to care services and suddenly I am a "Chauvinist"!? You completely misconstrue and distort a real-life observation I put forward and suddenly I am a "Chauvinist"!?
Are you serious when you say "deprive the world of another Merkel or Widmer-Schlumpf" -- !?!?! Really!?
Are you of the opinion that it is inconceivable for ANY woman who has birthed a child into this world to want to be it's mother by night AND by day!? Are you saying that ANY woman who wishes to be a parent is somehow stupid!? Are only women who run the rat race day in and day out, sucking up to an employer all week long, are they the only women who are to be respected or looked up to!? Is motherhood something to be besmirched? Is motherhood and parenthood something LESS than being employed or having a masters degree in X field!?

I happen to think that parenthood is the "career" that deserves the HIGHEST respect! I happen to think that parenthood is the BEST thing that parents can do for their kids! If I could I would deem it a privilege to care for my children while our budget flows in from elsewhere! I have absolutely NO issue with ANYONE, man or woman, following their dreams, and if that means getting a "career" and working the treadmill to bring in the budget then by all means go for it - and if that is to be a stay-at-home parent and look after the kids and the household, then I will not roll my eyes and besmirch your choice!

I think it's disgusting how society today largely finds it's "ok", or even "politically correct" to belittle women who spend their daylight hours caring for their kids! What a twisted mentality!
I am confused. You say that you are
not calling for women to leave the home and parents to hand over the kids to care services
But this means that you are calling for women to stay at home and to forget about careers.

Our Mum stopped working upon marriage and became a total housewife. But looking back and remembering her often frustrated and furious mood I conclude that brother and me and Dad in a way were profiteers and that she clearly suffered. She so very often mentioned her pre-marriage working that the conclusion to me is obvious. The educated HauteCouture-Taylor and clothes saleswoman clearly felt downgraded. She "fled" into the supreme and precise planning of excursions and holidays

So that the question is --- do we men have the right to condemn women to stay at home ??
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Old 19.05.2014, 10:31
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The initiative has opened a can of worms that basically is overwhelming the political legal system.

In three years, either Bern or the Swiss people will have another vote on this. Expect the climate to have changed and the Swiss will by then have realized the initiative has brought more problems than positive change.
I'm not sure why I got a groan for this. My information comes straight from a government legal representative whose job is to convert the referendum into law. The consequences of this referendum are messy, expensive, time-consuming and have almost no real advantages for Switzerland except perhaps a fewer foreigners but at what a cost. I truly believe the Swiss just wanted to send a signal without realizing the legal consequences.

The whole referendum was emotionally-laden and, especially due to the way it was worded, should never have been put to a national vote. The voters were not properly educated on the consequences, and to be honest, most didn't care at that time. They just wanted the government to know they've had enough of the large influx of foreigners in their lives.
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Old 19.05.2014, 12:30
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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That's not democracy, that's gullible people trapped to align themselves with despicable fascist style propaganda,that should be legally banned..
just to remind you that the original definition of fascism, as defined by Mussolini, was unions, industry and government united in pursuit of common objectives.

The entire tabooisation in political debte that excluded certain topics from coming onto the table was thus the fascism here, not the breaking of that taboo.
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Old 19.05.2014, 13:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The entire tabooisation in political debte that excluded certain topics from coming onto the table was thus the fascism here, not the breaking of that taboo.
I think it's useless to repeat (yet once more?) that I didn't object to the debates on immigration, but rather to the way they were/are done.
It's also useless to add that we can't agree on anything here because you think you belong to a special class, that is not targeted by any muddy propaganda. Maybe you're right on this one, but please don't ask anyone to see things through your pink glasses.
And to talk abut taboos in Swiss politics, the irony... that makes me lol....Anyhow, here it's not nearly close to as bad as other places have it now, I give Switzerland this prize.
I'm looking forward to seeing the new SVP posters. (as perfect examples of unlimited freedom of expression)

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Old 19.05.2014, 15:19
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I think it's useless to repeat (yet once more?) that I didn't object to the debates on immigration, but rather to the way they were/are done.
It's also useless to add that we can't agree on anything here because you think you belong to a special class, that is not targeted by any muddy propaganda. Maybe you're right on this one, but please don't ask anyone to see things through your pink glasses.
And to talk abut taboos in Swiss politics, the irony... that makes me lol....Anyhow, here it's not nearly close to as bad as other places have it now, I give Switzerland this prize.
I'm looking forward to seeing the new SVP posters. (as perfect examples of unlimited freedom of expression)
You were objecting to posters. And as I said before, a poster can never be more than a caricaturesque reduction of an argument. If you want the full nuanced version of the argument, you find it elsewhere. I have yet to see a poster for any referundum topic that provided a fully nuanced analysis, just as I have yet to see a poster for any political party that fully explains what that party stands for. You were objecting to material being pushed into your letterbox that you found offensive. In political debate, people will get offended. I would even say that if nobody is being offended, nobody is rocking the boat hard enough.
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Old 19.05.2014, 15:35
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The consequences of this referendum are messy, expensive, time-consuming and have almost no real advantages for Switzerland except perhaps a fewer foreigners but at what a cost. I truly believe the Swiss just wanted to send a signal without realizing the legal consequences.
Yes this. And generally better quality political discourse will probably point it out.

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The voters were not properly educated on the consequences..
Again. Thank you.

It's a costly wake up call.
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Old 19.05.2014, 20:39
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I agree but sadly almost all the Swiss I meet fail to do this.
Not sure why I got groaned for this; my poor choice of Swiss friends maybe?
Some real life conversation examples; I will vote for this because they will send the asylum seekers home
I saw on television that the EU will not react to a negative vote.
It will be good to stop families getting permission to join the man/worker.
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Old 19.05.2014, 21:21
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Not sure why I got groaned for this; my poor choice of Swiss friends maybe?
Some real life conversation examples; I will vote for this because they will send the asylum seekers home
I saw on television that the EU will not react to a negative vote.
It will be good to stop families getting permission to join the man/worker.
Just to counterbalance your anecdotal account with my own, while I've also encountered Swiss with the simplistic attitude you describe, I've also spoken with many Swiss who truly make the effort to examine the details and understand the debate, and vote accordingly. (And there's surely various counts of everything in between.)
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