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  #921  
Old 28.06.2014, 13:02
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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There are only four million people in CH?

500/head is the correct number, and that's over 7 years, so 70/head/year.

Tom
True but much more for the few taxpayers.
Anyway I suspect they will have to pay much more to maintain the same level of research that the EU funded; which was much more than the Swiss paid into the scheme.
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  #922  
Old 28.06.2014, 14:47
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Bundesrat just announced they will invest 4.4 Billion in research to replace the loss of EU funding; that was a higher cost than I expected, circa, a thousand per head for every man, woman and child here.

I hope they have savings in other areas to offset this

They claim this is the same as their planned contributions to the EU programs.

Will be good to see the details and to see if this is more or less than the hoped for EU grants in the period.

Newspapers claim this is less than was anticipated from the EU
The thing is though that it is not really about the amount of money, it is about access to the research undertaken and participation - even if you do not participate in all projects, you still have access as member of the club. And we are not longer in the club. Our industries rely on innovation and it remains to be seen how this will impact them. Product research is a very sensitive area for all companies, so it will be difficult to determine the impact, if any, for years to come.
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  #923  
Old 28.06.2014, 17:20
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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There are only four million people in CH?

500/head is the correct number, and that's over 7 years, so 70/head/year.

Tom
You can do this calculation because family regrouping will not be limited.
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  #924  
Old 28.06.2014, 19:07
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The thing is though that it is not really about the amount of money, it is about access to the research undertaken and participation - even if you do not participate in all projects, you still have access as member of the club. And we are not longer in the club. Our industries rely on innovation and it remains to be seen how this will impact them. Product research is a very sensitive area for all companies, so it will be difficult to determine the impact, if any, for years to come.
salaries for academics in Switzerland are pretty good as compared to other countries (EU, North America), so I guess Switzerland would continue to attract talent, also from non EU.

The research budget - government and industry sponsored- would still stay quite competitive, thus I do not see how this would compromise innovativeness of Swiss industry. Furthermore, most of the industries, scout for early stage research/ideas globally, so again access to new ideas- as long as you have funds to invest in getting these matured- would not be seriously hampered.

I did not vote for the initiative, would never vote for any such topic; but personally I believe that Switzerland needs to find a different arrangement with EU, free movement - the way EU is envisioning- would not work for Switzerland in long term
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  #925  
Old 28.06.2014, 23:26
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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salaries for academics in Switzerland are pretty good as compared to other countries (EU, North America), so I guess Switzerland would continue to attract talent, also from non EU.
It does not have every single field of research enough developed to keep going alone.

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The research budget - government and industry sponsored- would still stay quite competitive, thus I do not see how this would compromise innovativeness of Swiss industry. Furthermore, most of the industries, scout for early stage research/ideas globally, so again access to new ideas- as long as you have funds to invest in getting these matured- would not be seriously hampered.
To do very local and irrelevant research. Sorry, it is reality, with laws such as this one, research gets pointlessly complicated and the overheads are ridiculous.

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I did not vote for the initiative, would never vote for any such topic; but personally I believe that Switzerland needs to find a different arrangement with EU, free movement - the way EU is envisioning- would not work for Switzerland in long term
A negotiation has two sides, Junker was elected with 26/28 votes, it will be a tough one.

The main consequence of this law was that naturalisation now takes 10 years and not anymore 12.

Furthermore, there was a big hope in the Euroskeptics... but put together they reach a 25%.
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  #926  
Old 29.06.2014, 00:53
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Relax!

Switzerland needs the EU and the EU needs Switzerland... both will have to find a compromise, we just have to wait and see.
S

Snail pace right ??
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  #927  
Old 29.06.2014, 10:47
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The article I quoted was written this year, so the Lisbon treaty and it's consequences were for sure known by then. Additionally they consulted Christa Tobler a specialist for European Law. I read the glossary, but it sounds not very specific.

Are you 100% positive this applies to this case (IANAL)?




I think it is very clear that the Swiss want to have good relationships with the EU. No one questions that and even post-Masseneinwanderungsinitiative-surveys show this. 74% are in favour of the bilaterals.

The question is regarding joining the EU and frankly I know hardly anyone who would still like to join the EU. Most of the people I know who wanted to join the EU in 90s changed their mind by now, no matter if SP, CVP, FDP or SVP member/symphatiser.

According to a survey from 2012 11,5% of Swiss still wanted to join the EU and actually I am surprised they are still that many. It has become clear in the last 20 years that the Swiss democratic system is incompatible with the EU system and I literally know nobody who wants to give up that. A few of the people I know are in favour of the EU, but think we can somehow keep our system. But the vast majority does not want to exchange half-direct democracy for this implementation of an European Union with, what can only be called, a simulation of a representative democratic system.


Good relationships with the EU? Very important. Joining? Hell no.

Unanimity is only for some matters:

http://europa.eu/legislation_summari...animity_en.htm

Forget the hopes of the expert and look at what happened with Junker.

UK was isolated: it is several times more important than Switzerland, and already in the EU.
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  #928  
Old 29.06.2014, 14:43
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Unanimity is only for some matters:

http://europa.eu/legislation_summari...animity_en.htm
That's not very specific. Again: Are you 100% positive unanimity is NOT required for this particular case? I don't care about all other cases, only about this one.

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Forget the hopes of the expert and look at what happened with Junker.
What does this have to do with Junker?

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UK was isolated: it is several times more important than Switzerland, and already in the EU.
Switzerland is not part of the UK. The UK can decide whatever they want, but if the EU is not adopting a less ridiculous democratic system I can not imagine Switzerland joining the EU.
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  #929  
Old 29.06.2014, 15:03
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Relevent...Swiss national team without immigrants
http://i.imgur.com/eWPMNBS.jpg
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  #930  
Old 29.06.2014, 15:18
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Within EU, the Brits have irritated quite a few countries and quite a few governments in the last years. The Junker issue is in my opinion a purely intern influence fight UK vs. Germany. Nothing else. Switzerland has no relevance in that and the negotiations with the EU will be not hard but impossible. The two Swiss votes contradict each other. As long as there is a German in the room, and there will be, the Swiss won't be able "das schönzureden" (EDIT for translation: to put lipstick on the pig).
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  #931  
Old 29.06.2014, 17:47
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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That's not very specific. Again: Are you 100% positive unanimity is NOT required for this particular case? I don't care about all other cases, only about this one.


What does this have to do with Junker?


Switzerland is not part of the UK. The UK can decide whatever they want, but if the EU is not adopting a less ridiculous democratic system I can not imagine Switzerland joining the EU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_...014_onwards.29

FMOP falls under QMV

Forget about the need of unanimity.
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  #932  
Old 27.07.2014, 12:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_...014_onwards.29

FMOP falls under QMV

Forget about the need of unanimity.
There was another interview with Christa Tobler and she repeated here claim that the Council of European Union requires unanimity and the majority of the EU parliament to cancel the contracts.

I don't know if this falls under this part (From the wikipedia page you quoted):

Quote:
Certain policy fields remain subject to unanimity in whole or in part, such as: [...]
  • the common foreign and security policy, with the exception of certain clearly defined cases;

Last edited by 11HoursInTheTinPan; 27.07.2014 at 12:49.
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  #933  
Old 27.07.2014, 16:41
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Relevent...Swiss national team without immigrants
http://i.imgur.com/eWPMNBS.jpg
About the three guys remaining in that picture...aren't they at least the SONS of immigrants?
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  #934  
Old 02.08.2014, 10:09
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Some things continue as usual! According to Blick today the EM firm owned by Blocher is advertising in Germany for engineers, chemists and salesman.
Good example of "do as I say" not "do as I do".
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  #935  
Old 02.08.2014, 11:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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There was another interview with Christa Tobler and she repeated here claim that the Council of European Union requires unanimity and the majority of the EU parliament to cancel the contracts.

I don't know if this falls under this part (From the wikipedia page you quoted):
Not much of an expert then, as of the 1st of Nov. next the only areas requiring unanimity are:
- Taxation
- Social security or social protection
- The accession of new States to the European Union
- Foreign and common defence policy
- Operational police cooperation between the Member States

In addition to which as we have seen in its recent decision to reject our request to renegotiate the bilateral agreements the Council of Ministers did not even need to discuss the issue let alone vote on it.

And of course there will be no need for the Council of Ministers to vote on breaking the treaty since we are the ones that are going to do that. I'd expect they will simply acknowledge the fact that it has happened.
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  #936  
Old 02.08.2014, 11:57
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Some things continue as usual! According to Blick today the EM firm owned by Blocher is advertising in Germany for engineers, chemists and salesman.
Good example of "do as I say" not "do as I do".
The Blochers have never let politics get in the way of business - remember their 15% wage cut....
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  #937  
Old 02.08.2014, 16:46
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Not much of an expert then, as of the 1st of Nov. next the only areas requiring unanimity are:
- Taxation
- Social security or social protection
- The accession of new States to the European Union
- Foreign and common defence policy
- Operational police cooperation between the Member States

In addition to which as we have seen in its recent decision to reject our request to renegotiate the bilateral agreements the Council of Ministers did not even need to discuss the issue let alone vote on it.

And of course there will be no need for the Council of Ministers to vote on breaking the treaty since we are the ones that are going to do that. I'd expect they will simply acknowledge the fact that it has happened.
Sources please.

Christa Tobler is a well known jurist who is not only a professor at the Europainstitut of the university Basel, but also for European law at the university of Leiden where she was the coordinator of the LL.M. Programme in EC Law until 2002. Since 2008 she is in the Board of Trustees at the Academy of European Law as well.

So, excuse me anonymous stranger on the internet, but you have a looooong way to go until your credibility is even close to the one of Mike Shiva, of whom I know at least his real name, how he looks like and his qualifications on this topic (none).


I am sorry to break this to you Mr......Jim2007, but this is not a question of opinion, but of facts and unless you start to produce sources, I couldn't care less about your or anyone else's oppinion on here who is not a certified expert on this topic.
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  #938  
Old 02.08.2014, 17:17
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Sources please.

Christa Tobler is a well known jurist who is not only a professor at the Europainstitut of the university Basel, but also for European law at the university of Leiden where she was the coordinator of the LL.M. Programme in EC Law until 2002. Since 2008 she is in the Board of Trustees at the Academy of European Law as well.

So, excuse me anonymous stranger on the internet, but you have a looooong way to go until your credibility is even close to the one of Mike Shiva, of whom I know at least his real name, how he looks like and his qualifications on this topic (none).


I am sorry to break this to you Mr......Jim2007, but this is not a question of opinion, but of facts and unless you start to produce sources, I couldn't care less about your or anyone else's oppinion on here who is not a certified expert on this topic.
Re-read the Tagesanzeiger article. She says that a unanimous council vote and assent from the EU parliament is needed only if the EU wants to break the bilaterals from its end.

Since Switzerland is the one wanting to break the treaty, the EU doesnt have to do a damn thing, but just follow the guillotine clause that is already signed and agreed to by both parties.

Time to stop this wishful thinking about what "EU must do", and really prepare for the consequences, or hold a new vote.
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  #939  
Old 02.08.2014, 17:24
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Re-read the Tagesanzeiger article. She says that a unanimous council vote and assent from the EU parliament is needed only if the EU wants to break the bilaterals from its end.

Since Switzerland is the one wanting to break the treaty, the EU doesnt have to do a damn thing, but just follow the guillotine clause that is already signed and agreed to by both parties.

Time to stop this wishful thinking about what "EU must do", and really prepare for the consequences, or hold a new vote.
There is a difference between breaking a treaty and terminating it. Switzerland might break it, but as Mrs. Tobler said in the interview: The initiative does not state that any treaty has to be formally terminated by Switzerland. So Switzerland might just not do that.

The question here is: What does the EU to do according to their own laws, if they want to terminate the treaty (to be able to apply the guillotine clause) in such a case? Nothing more or nothing less. We have another thread now for doomsday prophecies.
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Old 02.08.2014, 17:30
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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There is a difference between breaking a treaty and terminating it. Switzerland might break it, but as written interview: The initiative does not state that any treaty has to be formally terminated by Switzerland. So Switzerland might just not do that.

The question here is: What does the EU to do according to their own laws, if they want to terminate the treaty (to be able to apply the guillotine clause)? Nothing more or nothing less. We have another thread now for doomsday prophecies.
Thats the point, the EU doesnt have to do anything.
The EU will be following the means written into the treaty itself to terminate it, when they apply the guillotine clause.

If they want to terminate without the conditions for the guillotine clause being fulfilled, thats when the council unanimity and parliament vote would be needed. As current matters stand CH is on its way to fulfill those conditions by 2017.
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