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  #961  
Old 06.08.2014, 15:19
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Which is the point I absolutely made. Before and after the voting. I was called an alarmist and soviet, the soviet label was you btw

Under-estimating the danger of manipulative, fear inducing campaign and its effects it has on population that is not motivated to get their facts on consequences is a costly and dangerous ostrich maneuvre.

The only way how to give time for people to step up interest and education and have the campaign pushed for better quality in order to deliver facts to voters, in media, etc. is to clip SVPs only ammunition, which is their incorrect and damaging rhetorics (banned in other countries, there is a legislature there for that). Nothing else. It is fear, a knee jerk reaction, that makes people not go after facts they need in order to vote rationally and take responsibility for what their direct democracy actually means. Fear is not rational, fact checking and need for it, is. SVP operates in the arena of irrational and people are too slow to see the connections.
I think we've been over this before.

All political parties operate by disseminating irrational fear. The Greens are telling us all nuclear plants need to close because there's a giant tsunami coming. The Left is telling us that if we don't spend more money on creches our universities are going down the drain. The FDP is telling us we're doomed if we can't cut taxes. So seeing they're all right, we're heading for a future where we're going to be radioactive, uneducated and bankrupt. And you're telling me there's one party that's using irrational scare tactics? Show me the party that says, don't bother to vote for us - the world is perfect already. There is hyberbole everywhere. You just have to be aware of it. If you want to ban all hyperbole in politics, good luck with that.
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  #962  
Old 06.08.2014, 15:28
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Calling SVP campaign merely hyperbolical is highly under-estimative as it has been proven in the last vote.

We have been over it before. You, yourself, a few mins ago.

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Assuming the stupidity of your opponent creates a false sense of security.
However, they do not under-estimate it in the EU, it is quite inspirational.

I do not see a threat to the freedom of speech anywhere there that so many here used when saying SVP is nowhere near to be taken seriously in their hyperbolical rhetorics.
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  #963  
Old 06.08.2014, 16:07
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

I don't see anything about SVP on that page.

But I see the watchfulness of the all-reaching bloated super state, and a cheap justification for censorship.

If only we could control people's thoughts, democracy would be so much simpler.



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  #964  
Old 06.08.2014, 16:20
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Naw.

You are funny, and I do not mean it under-estimatively, your hyperbole is unnecessary, though.

The language-symbolism card could be an efficient one, the implementation could hurt, though short term, those it is supposed to protect, but I think not putting any obstacles in an unhealthy strategy will hurt more, and at the end it will actually hurt more locals than foreigners. Anyone walking around saying they do not need bilaterals and investments, cooperative projects, research...is highly suspicious. It is in fact anti patriotic.
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  #965  
Old 06.08.2014, 16:50
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I don't see anything about SVP on that page.

But I see the watchfulness of the all-reaching bloated super state, and a cheap justification for censorship.

If only we could control people's thoughts, democracy would be so much simpler.
Hitler (or Mussolini, or Gaddaffi, or Stalin) had all the freedom of speech possible. Then he wanted more freedom of speech, so he started a campaign against minorities (political and racial). It was a very successful democracy, until it became a dictatorship.

Freedom of hatred is the best way to gain power in a democracy, it simply appeals to emotions. Facts and history taught this some many times, that arguments on freedom of hatred in order to avoid the control of the state are simply ludicrous. When you are free to discriminate, it means democracy has been dead for a long time.
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  #966  
Old 06.08.2014, 16:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I don't see anything about SVP on that page.

But I see the watchfulness of the all-reaching bloated super state, and a cheap justification for censorship.

If only we could control people's thoughts, democracy would be so much simpler.
The EU webpage is taking a position against xenophobia and racism. That is an attempt at thought control?
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  #967  
Old 06.08.2014, 17:23
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The EU webpage is taking a position against xenophobia and racism. That is an attempt at thought control?
Is any legislature just an attempt at thought control then?
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  #968  
Old 06.08.2014, 17:25
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The EU webpage is taking a position against xenophobia and racism. That is an attempt at thought control?
I dont see much of a positional argument on that page but more a "we must spends stashes of money and employ armies of burocrats" sort of approach. It's what the nanny state thrives on. Lots of scope for self-defining action and little in the way of measurable deliverables.
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  #969  
Old 06.08.2014, 17:26
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Is any legislature just an attempt at thought control then?
The division between judiciary, legislature and executive branches was put in for a reason.
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  #970  
Old 06.08.2014, 17:29
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Hitler (or Mussolini, or Gaddaffi, or Stalin) had all the freedom of speech possible. Then he wanted more freedom of speech, so he started a campaign against minorities (political and racial). It was a very successful democracy, until it became a dictatorship.

Freedom of hatred is the best way to gain power in a democracy, it simply appeals to emotions. Facts and history taught this some many times, that arguments on freedom of hatred in order to avoid the control of the state are simply ludicrous. When you are free to discriminate, it means democracy has been dead for a long time.
The Godwin argument really does do it every time.

Is that the best you can come up with.?
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  #971  
Old 06.08.2014, 17:34
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The EU webpage is taking a position against xenophobia and racism. That is an attempt at thought control?
It is if you are free to define xenophobia and racism as a container for what your political opponents do, but excluding anything you do.
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  #972  
Old 06.08.2014, 21:42
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The Godwin argument really does do it every time.

Is that the best you can come up with.?
No, but Google can:

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl...+hatred+hitler

First result:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_ag...locaust_denial

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  #973  
Old 06.08.2014, 22:13
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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It is if you are free to define xenophobia and racism as a container for what your political opponents do, but excluding anything you do.
Xenophobia is not a fashion... one gets the label because he or she targets foreigners or minorities to gain the consensus of the people.

UDC has reached the target and they have no idea about how to solve any other problem, such as lack of doctors, lack of energy, lack of transportation, lack of coverage for old people in the mountains, rise of cost of mobility, salary dumping (that will now get worse), delocalization of companies.

I do not see where they have the competences for these issues, that are very real.
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  #974  
Old 06.08.2014, 23:05
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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lack of energy
What lack of energy?

We have a surplus, or will have until the idiots get their way and shut down the nukes.

Tom
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  #975  
Old 07.08.2014, 02:20
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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It is if you are free to define xenophobia and racism as a container for what your political opponents do, but excluding anything you do.
Amogles...really? I would call it cognitive dissonance.
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  #976  
Old 07.08.2014, 09:26
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Hitler (or Mussolini, or Gaddaffi, or Stalin) had all the freedom of speech possible. Then he wanted more freedom of speech, so he started a campaign against minorities (political and racial). It was a very successful democracy, until it became a dictatorship.

Freedom of hatred is the best way to gain power in a democracy, it simply appeals to emotions. Facts and history taught this some many times, that arguments on freedom of hatred in order to avoid the control of the state are simply ludicrous. When you are free to discriminate, it means democracy has been dead for a long time.
The guy who first came up with the idea to blame freedom of speech and democracy for being the reason for the rise of Hitler must have been a bloody brilliant bastard.

It is about the most perverted argument that exists, because it implies that the alternatives are somehow better. Ignoring that it leaves us with the system that was implemented after Hitler came to power.
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  #977  
Old 07.08.2014, 09:47
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The guy who first came up with the idea to blame freedom of speech and democracy for being the reason for the rise of Hitler must have been a bloody brilliant bastard.

It is about the most perverted argument that exists, because it implies that the alternatives are somehow better. Ignoring that it leaves us with the system that was implemented after Hitler came to power.

You cannot say whatever you want in any case, there is the law about "slander" and there are laws against hatred speech that are also international, for which, if you do not pay attention, you get in serious troubles, as an individual.

As you cannot use Amy Winehouse for a campaign about drug addicts. You get sued and you pay money, whatever is your freedom of speech.

The system implemented after Hitler was defeated, has gradually become a system where everybody has the right to have a normal life, whatever was the condition were he was born.
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Old 07.08.2014, 09:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Xenophobia is not a fashion... one gets the label because he or she targets foreigners or minorities to gain the consensus of the people.

UDC has reached the target and they have no idea about how to solve any other problem, such as lack of doctors, lack of energy, lack of transportation, lack of coverage for old people in the mountains, rise of cost of mobility, salary dumping (that will now get worse), delocalization of companies.

I do not see where they have the competences for these issues, that are very real.
Restricting mobility always results in corresponsing restricting business and revenues. Even with mobility that spans across the borders, people complaining about frontaliers do not realize their own people have had a chance to compete already, and people travelling across always push up the local trade, little shops open later for those finishing late, cheap restaurants having business. Who is going to inject finances into these areas when the folks travelling across disappear. I have already lived in a ghost town in the border mountains, where the only moving phenomenon in and out, were the frontaliers. Not even tourists, too far, too abandoned. Some of the frontaliers settled, bringing families and normal positives of inhabited area, the only growth in population, and providing services like nannying and cleaning that have ceased before, too. Shut the incoming and outcoming stream, and see what happens to this area. If locals from more hopping local regions were not motivated to move up to the hills before, they are not likely to do it now, unless large chunk of our tax cash is invested into creating jobs they would like, creating schools and infrastructure. If there were not incentives to do it up until now to atract a desired profile of population, why think it will miraculously happen tomorrow. Social engineering will backfire.
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  #979  
Old 07.08.2014, 10:15
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

It's a bit of a stretch to justify an EU campaign for harsher censorship by predicting it will keep cross-border shopping alive.
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Old 07.08.2014, 10:35
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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It's a bit of a stretch to justify an EU campaign for harsher censorship by predicting it will keep cross-border shopping alive.

You are talking as if the positive effect of discrimination, racism and hatred speech is evident.

The positive effect of banning xenophobia is... banning xenophobia....
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