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  #81  
Old 19.02.2014, 10:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Now, this is what I call "unexpected" from Merkel, honestly I was expecting her to ...like..... maybe declare war on Switzerland

Respect for both, Merkel and Burkhalter, this is what people need to hear ... not tit-for-tat.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...18-704757.html
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  #82  
Old 19.02.2014, 10:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I currently live in a country with a population density of over 7000 per square kilometre, so not double or triple but 35 times higher than CH. I find the quality of living here on par with Switzerland if not better. The discussion on sustainable population density is bullshit and just barely covered xenophobia.
Well, the comparison to a city-state doesn't seem quite fitting and you only took a fragment of my argumentation to come back to this word, that everyone so readily throws around. It is a fairly severe accusation to make, and to me it begs a more elaborate explanation than "that discussion is bullshit".
To allege that everyone should accept your current standards on feasible population density and urbanisation, is a bit presumptuous, don't you think?

I believe the reason that led to this initiative being accepted is a little more complicated and cannot just be explained with xenophobia. I stated some of them in previous posts and won't repeat them here.

However, allow me to use deduction to illustrate my point:

"The majority of CH is xenophobic, because they decided that immigration should be controlled independently and be subject to upper limits in accordance to CH's needs."
(here's a link to the initiative's text, if you care to read it.)


Germany (source FAQ on auswaertiges-amt.de):
Quote:
I am a foreign national interested in working in Germany. What opportunities are open to me?
Nationals of countries that are not part of the European Economic Area may normally work in Germany only if their residence permit explicitly authorizes them to do so.
In view of continuing high unemployment, the 1973 ban on recruiting foreign workers remains largely in place.
As a rule immigrants have access to the labour market only when no suitable German or privileged foreign national is available anywhere in Germany for the job in question.
For unskilled and low-skilled workers the recruitment ban is still in place and access to the labour market remains very limited.
XENOPHOBIA!!!

Singapore:
Quote:
The Work Permit (WP) is for foreigners who:
  • Want to work in Singapore; and
  • Are from an approved source country/territory (depending on the sector which the worker is going to be employed in).
XENO.. well, I could carry on for a while, since every sovereign state seems to enforce such rules and as such. The whole "xenophobia" argument seems a little hypocritical to me and, generally, a little more thought is warranted before applying derogatory labels to any people.

But I digress. My apologies for being off topic.
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  #83  
Old 19.02.2014, 10:46
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I work in the academia as well, if I were you I'd tell them not to panic (seriously) . First, students who are already on an Erasmus in Switzerland can't be expelled just like that. Second and after all, it is not before months that the Swiss government will come out with some form of law to translate this vote, don't forget that the Swiss government itself was anti-vote, so I assume they will do their best for a good compromise.

I have already solved the mass immigration problem with a time and space division multiple access approach. .

Largely not acceptable apparently... but still I think it would work.
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  #84  
Old 19.02.2014, 11:02
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Bullshit. The EU is perfectly fine with a country joining or leaving. What the EU and most pro-Europeans are not fine with are people who try to have their cake and eat it.
You cannot have a one-way freedom of movement: You cannot expect to get the right to move wherever you want in the EU yourself but limit the number of EU folks in your country. You also cannot expect to get free access to the market for your goods but blocking imports. The EU is simply about free movement. You can want it or leave it. But the half arsed positions of CH (and some others like the UK) are just going on the nerves of the people who actually value the EU for what it is.


Before Switzerland joined Schengen have I personally witnessed how an older Swiss guy went completely batshit in the German embassy in Bern when his Thai girlfriend's visa application was rejected. No shopping in Konstanz for those two... If the Swiss want to go back to those days am I fine with it - I just don't agree that it is ok to limit it only in one direction... and for once do the EU bureaucrats seem to slowly get their shit together and will gradually show the Swiss how many benefits the EU has brought them they take for granted and never actually think about. That's nothing undemocratic at all. A vote should have these logical consequences, otherwise is it pointless.
Can you tell me the what is the percentage of immigrants compared to the locals here?
I am here and I am benifiting. I still remember that I am a guest here, and as a guest I respect their vote even though it might or will affect me.

Also, are you happy that EU is going to "teach" Switzerland a lesson? Is that what I have to understand for your statement?
Switzerland is teaching a democratic lesson to ALL of the EU and the rest of the world.

Democracy rimes with majority and NOT individual. It's a social pact. There will be people affected for sure but it was a decision. And EU is a bully federation, becoming slowly a US of E.

If Switzerland sets quota, than EU should set quotas vs Switzerland. And not play the bully by affecting students.

Basically you are mixing everything all together...
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  #85  
Old 19.02.2014, 11:12
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The same argument just after 3 pages?

The same answer:

You broke a contract, so you started this process, the EU is applying the penalty clauses as everybody would do in these circumstances.

Repeating as a dogma that EU is the bad guy, will not make it the bad guy.

In Switzerland if you break a contract, you pay the penalties, I do not see why internationally this should be different.
No contract broken. It was a democratic decision. AND it can only be voted as a law in 3 years.
If EU was serious, it would sit at the same table than Swiitzerland and negotiate to see how to work with this limitation.

Penalties is applying the same thing, like putting quotas on Swiss nationals. Not blocking students. This is bullying, and I will keep on saying it.
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  #86  
Old 19.02.2014, 11:29
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Can anyone explain what is the difference between Erasmus and Erasmus Plus?
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  #87  
Old 19.02.2014, 11:34
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Switzerland has, by voting to limit the free movement of EU citizens, gone against one of the central aims of the EU.

Why should the EU not choose to reiterate its position, the FP8/Horizon... question was simply the next opportunity to do so?

A probably flawed example as someone is bound to point out, but if Liechtenstein chose to limit Swiss frontaliers* then would the Swiss not react in some threatening way?


* Goes off to google if they already do that.
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  #88  
Old 19.02.2014, 12:15
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Also, some numbers to think about (from Wikipedia):

As of 2014, 23.4% of Switzerland's population do not hold Swiss citizenship. The net immigration is 80,000 people per year, 1% of the total population (three times more than e.g. in Germany, four times more than in the U.S.). Every year 30,000 – 40,000 receive Swiss nationality (this represents a per capita rate of about three times that of both Germany and the United States). According to the European Commission about 1 million EU citizens live in Switzerland and another 230,000 cross the border daily for work, while 430,000 Swiss live in the EU.

By population density, CH (196 pers./km2) would rank number 5. against other EU-Countries. But this calculation includes the 60% of the surface-area taken up by the alps
.
As I have posted before;
According to numbers published by the Bundesamt für Statistik at least 1 million of the foreigners here are eligible now to get Swiss citizenship. This would reduce the % of foreigners here from 23% to circa 8%.

This would be an easy solution to your concerns about the high number of foreigners; do you support this solution?
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Old 19.02.2014, 12:20
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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As I have posted before;
According to numbers published by the Bundesamt für Statistik at least 1 million of the foreigners here are eligible now to get Swiss citizenship. This would reduce the % of foreigners here from 23% to circa 8%.

This would be an easy solution to your concerns about the high number of foreigners; do you support this solution?
Sorry to butt in - I see that this vote is rather important to you.

Do you think, that just perhaps, these people can decide for themselves if they want to become (a backward ) Swiss?

Or is that too much self-determination?
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  #90  
Old 19.02.2014, 12:23
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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No contract broken. It was a democratic decision. AND it can only be voted as a law in 3 years.
If EU was serious, it would sit at the same table than Swiitzerland and negotiate to see how to work with this limitation.

Penalties is applying the same thing, like putting quotas on Swiss nationals. Not blocking students. This is bullying, and I will keep on saying it.
Wrong.

The EU did not do this in response to the Swiss vote on the quotas. It was done in response to the Swiss government refusing to sign the pre-agreed ratification of extending the FMOP to Croatia.

The reason for the exclusion was that, by not agreeing to the FMOP principle, the Swiss government went directly against the mandate of Horizon2020 and Erasmus.

The group within the EU, who are responsible for horizon 2020, are negotiating the next wave of research funding. This is, and always has been, dependant on free movement of people throughout the EU, since any funding requires more than one EU institution is involved in any research project.

In laymans terms, the swiss ousted themselves from Horizon 2020 and Erasmus. The EU couldnt allow them to continue applying for funds from it, even if they wanted to.
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  #91  
Old 19.02.2014, 12:57
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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No, you are WRONG
As a matter of fact he's right.

The result of the referendum is that the Swiss Bundesrat has 3 years to reegociate the part of the bilaterals that deals with freedom of movement. It does not suspend it effective immediately.

Renegociating is allowed by the treaty and is in theory perfectly possible, although the EU probably will not compromise easily, or at all.

Until these 3 years are up without a solution most likely there will be no unilateral change from the Swiss side. No contract has currently been broken, despite what Mr. Barroso seems to think.

Personally I voted NO - but like many others, I now feel I should have voted YES in light of the EU reaction.
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  #92  
Old 19.02.2014, 13:32
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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As a matter of fact he's right.
No, he's WRONG
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Old 19.02.2014, 13:43
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The EU does not act against anyone here - they simply execute agreements.


And either does discrimination not mean what you think it means or you will have to explain in what way Swiss people are discriminated against. You are not an EU member - you decided against joining and that's ok. So why do you expect to be treated like a member? You are in no way treated worse than any other non-EU country.

I was actually surprised to find out that Switzerland was included in Erasmus in the first place - I have no clue why EU citizens should pay for Swiss students studying in the EU with their tax money. So the EU did in no way make any sanctions or the like after the vote - they just started to stop handing out freebies. And that's ok in my book.
Whether is is ok in your book or not, clear is that the universities here have to act, to act NOW. Switzerland paid for EU students studying in Switzerland. It is an exchange program and not a one way road
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Old 19.02.2014, 13:47
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Can you tell me the what is the percentage of immigrants compared to the locals here?
I am here and I am benifiting. I still remember that I am a guest here, and as a guest I respect their vote even though it might or will affect me.

Also, are you happy that EU is going to "teach" Switzerland a lesson? Is that what I have to understand for your statement?
Switzerland is teaching a democratic lesson to ALL of the EU and the rest of the world.

Democracy rimes with majority and NOT individual. It's a social pact. There will be people affected for sure but it was a decision. And EU is a bully federation, becoming slowly a US of E.

If Switzerland sets quota, than EU should set quotas vs Switzerland. And not play the bully by affecting students.

Basically you are mixing everything all together...
As others have posted you miss the point. Both these programs are long term and rely on FMOP for the students to move around. Switzerland has rejected FMOP so has disqualified itself.
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Old 19.02.2014, 13:48
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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No, you are WRONG
Switzerland is continuing the Bilateral Agreements. Nobody wants to get out of them
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Old 19.02.2014, 13:50
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Wasn't the referendum about limiting immigration and thus ending the bilaterals?
NO
it was NOT about ending the Bilaterals
only about some modifications
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Old 19.02.2014, 13:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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NO
it was NOT about ending the Bilaterals
only about some modifications
so asking your partner for a divorce is just modifying your relationship?
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Old 19.02.2014, 13:56
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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so asking your partner for a divorce is just modifying your relationship?
Nobody asks for a divorce, only for the beds to be moved further apart

AND, to repeat it, the Bilaterals still have a massive support in Switzerland
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Old 19.02.2014, 14:02
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Nobody asks for a divorce, only for the beds to be moved further apart
into separate rooms! Switzerland can now negotiate it's own student exchange programmes with USA, Russia, China, African and Latin American countries. No FMOP = no EU for you!
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Old 19.02.2014, 14:02
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

So to conclude Switzerland wants an affair not a marriage. Just the good bits and no mother in law to put up with.
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