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  #1101  
Old 19.11.2014, 01:00
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I can well imagine that he wouldn't be totally opposed to the suggestion.


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I would love to serve in the military service and have a rifle .
While you serve you earn only 80% by default, and that's for 250-300 working days (I'm not up to date how long one has to serve these days). No matter how much you earn you're better off paying a visit to your local Büchsenmacher (arms dealer) after you got your arms purchase license, instead of serving just to get a free rifle).
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  #1102  
Old 19.11.2014, 11:44
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not to put too fine a point on it, but I suspect there are plenty of people who would quibble with you about there being no difference between being "Swiss" and being a "Swiss citizen".
The new(ish) Swiss will fight it tooth and nails though....
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  #1103  
Old 19.11.2014, 13:29
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the SVP simply doesn't want them and whatever they might bring with them (some will say expertise and valuable skills; others will say exploitation of social help and benefits and even maybe diseases).
I believe this to be a gross generalisation. To my knowledge, and from my experience speaking with SVP members and/or pro-SVP Swiss citizens, both face to face and online/over the phone, the discomfort is specifically towards immigrants who are not seen as pulling their own weight. Those who are here in a productive and self-sustaining capacity are more then welcome. The only time employed immigrants might be less welcome is when they, for instance, are suspected of having been hired in the place of a Swiss person, perhaps due to excepting a lower salary/benefits etc ... But this, to my knowledge, would be the minority rather than the majority.

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And in a discussion about one of the most important issues for our lives (as immigrants and guests in this foreign to us country) you refer to a most vocal leader that is making all these people (us) uncomfortable as "Mr. Blocher".
Though I do not wish for anyone to be "uncomfortable", I also do not relate to the idea that as a foreigner in a foreign land one is not prepared for the possible eventuality that one may have to return to ones own country at some point in time - and that that time might come with or without ones approval. As you state, you are "guests" here, and guests who pay their way are welcome - as opposed to guests who do not. The prevailing thought is that a majority of the immigrants in Switzerland DO pay their way, and as such they should be feeling pretty comfortable.
As for referring to Mr. Blocher as "Mr." (as I take it this is the part that bothers you) - this is simply normal here. To address a person by their last name and with either "Herr", "Frau", or the English equivalent thereof.
If I were speaking of Frau Sommaruga I would do so with "Frau" or "Mrs" or "Ms" as well. If I were chums with Frau Sommaruga I would refer to her as "Simonetta", or something even more endearing, but then only on a one-to-one basis, or around others who are equally as informal with her as I would be. Same goes for Herr Blocher.

Again, something like this could only bother ...
a. Someone who dislikes Mr. Blocher
b. Someone who doesn't know how people are properly addressed here in Switzerland

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Now, I don't want to imply that one should not aspire to be polite and gentlemanly, but I've never seen anyone defend a party and a person with such vigour.
Well I don't know if I am defending the SVP or Mr. Blocher with that much "vigour". I simply feel Mr. Blocher is demonized overtly by people who generally have not much of anything in particular to point to as a reason for their hatred of him. It always seems to boil down to his wealth and the accusation that he uses it to further his political goals - which last I checked was not a crime - or it's some conspiracy theories of him being part reptilian or descendant of the ancient Pharaohs of Egypt who sacrifices babies beneath chapels etc ...

Mr. Blocher is currently against ECOPOP, but I am for it. I have also seen things he has said here and there which I do not agree with. As for the SVP - well it is rather hard in one respect to talk about them as it they were one consciousness, simply because they are not. Sometimes I agree with some things from some branches of the SVP, and other times to those same SVP branches I will have to say "No, I disagree with that". Same goes with SVP members - sometimes there is much to agree on, other times not.

But yes, overall I do see the SVP party ideals as being generally the same as my personal ideals. It's not to say of course that I do not agree with any other party at any given time, but just that the SVP has, for me, a higher percentage of commonality with my own ideals than any other party does at this time. That may of course change at any point in time .. but for now it is this way.

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I've met people that never worked their entire lives (them and their families and their families' families) simply because they were members of any given party, and yet they never referred to anyone as "Mr. Papandreou", "Mr. Karamanlis", or anything of the sort. And these politicians were true benefactors to them, it was much more than simple alignment of interests and ideals.
I am not quite sure what you are saying here.

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So when you articulate your arguments as you do for the duration of this thread that I have been following (with much amazement might I add), it is crystal clear that you consider yourself an SVP champion and you take a lot of pride in that too.
Well I personally don't like to do much of anything half-heartedly, so I suppose that is how it may come across to some. More than being a "champion" for the SVP, I would rather be championing the independence and sovereignty of my country. It just so happens that presently the SVP is seemingly championing for this too - I am sure they have their agenda and that not all facets of it compare favourably to my standing and ideals, but to my mind they are the best possibility Switzerland has got to remaining somewhat independent and democratic.
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  #1104  
Old 19.11.2014, 13:53
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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... championing the independence and sovereignty of my country ...
This is the lie. Its not about Swiss sovereignty, but exploiting nationalism to gain seats in the Bundesrat and Federal council.

The Swiss voted to make a deal with the EU, now wants to break it. Fine. The EU will also break its end of the deal by imposing tariffs, etc etc as they would on any third country. Somehow the famous Swiss pragmatism breaks down when it comes to this simple fact.

Taking the SVP concept of sovereignty to its logical end, the only true sovereign country is North Korea.

And yes, Blocher lied when he claimed the EU is bound to renegotiate the bilaterals. The EU has already refused. When even the UK is not getting a pass on the FMOP, expecting CH to get one is a daydream.
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  #1105  
Old 19.11.2014, 14:03
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This is the lie. Its not about Swiss sovereignty, but exploiting nationalism to gain seats in the Bundesrat and Federal council.
Firstly, you took that portion of what I said completely out of it's context, which was in relation to my overall take on the SVP - not specifically about the MEI per se.

Secondly, how do the completely normal and expected goals of the SVP make that a "lie"!?

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The Swiss voted to make a deal with the EU, now wants to break it.
And yes, Blocher lied when he claimed the EU is bound to renegotiate the bilaterals. The EU has already refused. When even the UK is not getting a pass on the FMOP, expecting CH to get one is a daydream.
Article 18 of the agreement makes provision for either party of the agreement to call for renegotiation of the agreement. The initiative calls for precisely that – the renegotiation.

Apparently the almighty, can-do-wrong, EU, in cohorts with Strasbourg, can do whatever the flip it likes.
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  #1106  
Old 19.11.2014, 14:15
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Firstly, you took that portion of what I said completely out of it's context, which was in relation to my overall take on the SVP - not specifically about the MEI per se.

Secondly, how do the completely normal and expected goals of the SVP make that a "lie"!?



Article 18 of the agreement makes provision for either party of the agreement to call for renegotiation of the agreement. The initiative calls for precisely that – the renegotiation.

Apparently the almighty, can-do-wrong, EU, in cohorts with Strasbourg, can do whatever the flip it likes.
About "Article 18 of the agreement makes provision for either party of the agreement to call for renegotiation of the agreement. The initiative calls for precisely that – the renegotiation."

And now the mighty brains of the SVP have discovered that (like any other negotiation in life) you can ask but the other party can always say "No"; I am sure it was no surprise

Of course if the SVP had really not wanted to destroy the bilaterals then it would have been a prudent move to ask the EU first "in principle" before proposing this initiative.

About "Apparently the almighty, can-do-wrong, EU, in cohorts with Strasbourg, can do whatever the flip it likes." - All girls have the right to stick to their principles and say "No"
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  #1107  
Old 19.11.2014, 14:27
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And now the mighty brains of the SVP have discovered that (like any other negotiation in life) you can ask but the other party can always say "No"
I do not agree. If I make an agreement with someone and within the agreement is the right for either party to renegotiate the agreement, and then when a party enacts this clause the other party refuses to renegotiate, then it would be the party refusing to renegotiate that would be in contempt of the agreement, NOT the party enacting the renegotiation clause!

Has the EU ACTUALLY refused to renegotiate, or have they renegotiated and then basically said "We are not changing anything!"?

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Of course if the SVP had really not wanted to destroy the bilaterals then it would have been a prudent move to ask the EU first "in principle" before proposing this initiative.
Hahaha!! Yes, we must always ask for permission to act democratically ... LOL! What rubbish! The initiative calls for the renegotiation, and that is already IN the agreement!! There is no need to ask the EU for permission to vote on something that is already afforded to us in the agreement!
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  #1108  
Old 19.11.2014, 14:29
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Yeah - you know the only "blanket" of "propaganda" I see covering Switzerland today are the ones saying NEIN zu ECOPOP! Is the "strategy chief" paying for all of this as well!?
Who else do you know who?;
  • is against Ecopop
  • Has the money to pay for a "blanket" of "propaganda"
  • Has a track record of paying for such propaganda
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  #1109  
Old 19.11.2014, 14:34
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Who else do you know who?;
  • is against Ecopop
  • Has the money to pay for a "blanket" of "propaganda"
  • Has a track record of paying for such propaganda
The Federal Government? All the political parties officially opposed to the initiative? Lobbyist groups and industry that thrives on the unimpeded influx of immigrants?
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  #1110  
Old 19.11.2014, 14:35
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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And now the mighty brains of the SVP have discovered that (like any other negotiation in life) you can ask but the other party can always say "No"; I am sure it was no surprise
I think what is actually going on is that the Bundesrat, who were opposed to the initiative from day one, are not doing their best to push the EU to renegotiate but rather seeking to spin the EU's initial unwillingness into a revindication of their own position. This explains for example why the SVP were ring-fenced out of said negotiation attempts rather than being invited to lead them.

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Of course if the SVP had really not wanted to destroy the bilaterals then it would have been a prudent move to ask the EU first "in principle" before proposing this initiative.
Dear Mr EU, we want to ask our people to vote on whether we can renogiate one of our contarct to our advantage. We know that your chums and bedbuddies in Bern will ask you to answer this question with a firm "no" but would you kindly disregard them and be so kind as to in principle agree to our terms beforehand?

Yes, I can see that would have worked.
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  #1111  
Old 19.11.2014, 14:41
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I do not agree. If I make an agreement with someone and within the agreement is the right for either party to renegotiate the agreement, and then when a party enacts this clause the other party refuses to renegotiate, then it would be the party refusing to renegotiate that would be in contempt of the agreement, NOT the party enacting the renegotiation clause!

Has the EU ACTUALLY refused to renegotiate, or have they renegotiated and then basically said "We are not changing anything!"?



Hahaha!! Yes, we must always ask for permission to act democratically ... LOL! What rubbish! The initiative calls for the renegotiation, and that is already IN the agreement!! There is no need to ask the EU for permission to vote on something that is already afforded to us in the agreement!
You have rather a naive view about "renegotiate the agreement"; it does not mean you have the right to change whatever you like and the other party is obliged to say yes.
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  #1112  
Old 19.11.2014, 14:42
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The Federal Government? All the political parties officially opposed to the initiative? Lobbyist groups and industry that thrives on the unimpeded influx of immigrants?
So you don't know who?
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  #1113  
Old 19.11.2014, 14:48
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You have rather a naive view about "renegotiate the agreement"; it does not mean you have the right to change whatever you like and the other party is obliged to say yes.
From the last I heard, the EU is not refusing to agree to "whatever Switzerland wants". The EU is refusing to meet at a negotiating table. That is a big difference when it comes to the right to renegotiate.
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Old 19.11.2014, 14:49
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You have rather a naive view about "renegotiate the agreement"; it does not mean you have the right to change whatever you like and the other party is obliged to say yes.
Of course not - but they DO have to come to the renegotiation table! Have they done this? If so how did the negotiations proceed?
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Old 19.11.2014, 14:51
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So you don't know who?
Uhm, no ... I am not privy to that kind of financial information ... Are you!?
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  #1116  
Old 19.11.2014, 14:51
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I think what is actually going on is that the Bundesrat, who were opposed to the initiative from day one, are not doing their best to push the EU to renegotiate but rather seeking to spin the EU's initial unwillingness into a revindication of their own position. This explains for example why the SVP were ring-fenced out of said negotiation attempts rather than being invited to lead them.



Dear Mr EU, we want to ask our people to vote on whether we can renogiate one of our contarct to our advantage. We know that your chums and bedbuddies in Bern will ask you to answer this question with a firm "no" but would you kindly disregard them and be so kind as to in principle agree to our terms beforehand?

Yes, I can see that would have worked.
LOL, blame the Bundesrat for this dumb proposal to renegotiate FMOP!

About "the SVP were ring-fenced out of said negotiation attempts" - Really, I thought "Ueli" Maurer was in the Bundesrat; or has he changed parties?
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  #1117  
Old 19.11.2014, 14:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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LOL, blame the Bundesrat for this dumb proposal to renegotiate FMOP!

About "the SVP were ring-fenced out of said negotiation attempts" - Really, I thought "Ueli" Maurer was in the Bundesrat; or has he changed parties?
Come on, I was expecting better of you. This really is clutching at straws

Firstly, Mrs Sommaruga and her folks are handling this. I'm not aware of Maurer having been involved in any way.

Secondy, whether or not Mr Maurer was sent to Brussels to renogiate, that is a red herring. Normally when there is an initiative, the iniators of the initiative are invited to assist in its implementation, not the Bundesrat's pet representative of said faction. So not Mr Maurer should have been invited but the people who specifically initiated and ran the campaign.
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Old 19.11.2014, 14:56
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Of course not - but they DO have to come to the renegotiation table! Have they done this? If so how did the negotiations proceed?
Ummm ... no they do not HAVE to.

Blocher L.I.E.D.

Edit: The Bundesrat did formally ask for a renegotiation of the FMoP, of one of the fundamental pillars of the EU, while not being a EU member.
The EU refused. Shocking!
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Old 19.11.2014, 15:00
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Ummm ... no they do not HAVE to.

Blocher L.I.E.D.
You mean article 18 never existed, but nobody noticed until now?
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Old 19.11.2014, 15:01
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About "the SVP were ring-fenced out of said negotiation attempts" - Really, I thought "Ueli" Maurer was in the Bundesrat; or has he changed parties?
Erm ... and how was he at all involved in the renegotiations!?
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