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  #1121  
Old 19.11.2014, 15:03
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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You mean article 18 never existed, but nobody noticed until now?
I mean you cant make article 18 mean whatever you`d like it to.

Unless you are secretly an EU legal authority in exile?

Then its time to dust off your blue suit and tie and march on Brussels!
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  #1122  
Old 19.11.2014, 15:06
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I mean you cant make article 18 mean whatever you`d like it to.

Unless you are secretly an EU legal authority in exile?

Then its time to dust off your blue suit and tie and march on Brussels!
The biggest problem isn't Brussels. The biggest problem is the EU embassy Bundesrat in Bern.
And the whole point of the vote was to kick them into doing something.
If they don't respect a vote, why should they respect a march?
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  #1123  
Old 19.11.2014, 15:11
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The biggest problem isn't Brussels. The biggest problem is the EU embassy Bundesrat in Bern.
And the whole point of the vote was to kick them into doing something.
If they don't respect a vote, why should they respect a march?
Now its the big bad undemocratic Bundesrat with Ueli Maurer in it, instead of the big bad undemocratic EU?

And they are respecting the vote. They intend to let CH face the full consequences of it, while accepting whatever consequences it has for the EU.

Whatever happened to selber schuld?
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  #1124  
Old 19.11.2014, 15:12
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I think what is actually going on is that the Bundesrat, who were opposed to the initiative from day one, are not doing their best to push the EU to renegotiate but rather seeking to spin the EU's initial unwillingness into a revindication of their own position. This explains for example why the SVP were ring-fenced out of said negotiation attempts rather than being invited to lead them.



Dear Mr EU, we want to ask our people to vote on whether we can renogiate one of our contarct to our advantage. We know that your chums and bedbuddies in Bern will ask you to answer this question with a firm "no" but would you kindly disregard them and be so kind as to in principle agree to our terms beforehand?

Yes, I can see that would have worked.
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Come on, I was expecting better of you. This really is clutching at straws

Firstly, Mrs Sommaruga and her folks are handling this. I'm not aware of Maurer having been involved in any way.

Secondy, whether or not Mr Maurer was sent to Brussels to renogiate, that is a red herring. Normally when there is an initiative, the iniators of the initiative are invited to assist in its implementation, not the Bundesrat's pet representative of said faction. So not Mr Maurer should have been invited but the people who specifically initiated and ran the campaign.
You wrote that the Bundesrat were not doing their job not me, now you have changed horses and say it is not the Bundesrat but Mrs Sommaruga and her folks
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  #1125  
Old 19.11.2014, 15:15
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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And they are respecting the vote. They intend to let CH face the full consequences of it, while accepting whatever consequences it has for the EU.

Whatever happened to selber schuld?
So it's a pedagogic exercise of punishing the people so they never dare vote against the wishes of the Bundesrat ever again?

Don't they have to swear an oath to become a Bundesrat, with something about upholding the best interests of the people rather than seeking to extract revenge.

If you are required to do something that you absolutely cannot agree with aned that you cannot swallow your pride over, the honorable thing is to resign, not to sabotage.
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  #1126  
Old 19.11.2014, 15:21
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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You wrote that the Bundesrat were not doing their job not me, now you have changed horses and say it is not the Bundesrat but Mrs Sommaruga and her folks
For fear of repeating myself. If an initiative suceeds, the initiave committe is invited to be involved in its implementation. The Mr Maurer argument is a straw man here. He was not part of the initiative committee. The Bundesrat is intentionally seeking to make this fail. That much is obvious.
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  #1127  
Old 19.11.2014, 15:29
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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So it's a pedagogic exercise of punishing the people so they never dare vote against the wishes of the Bundesrat ever again?

Don't they have to swear an oath to become a Bundesrat, with something about upholding the best interests of the people rather than seeking to extract revenge.

If you are required to do something that you absolutely cannot agree with aned that you cannot swallow your pride over, the honorable thing is to resign, not to sabotage.
It's not about education. It's about consequences. EU and CH agree on some things and they say that they can renegotiate. Granted. The EU also says that there are specific parts that will not accept to be renegotiated, namely the FMOP. If EU wanted to challenge a basic right in the Swiss constitution I suppose CH would have reacted in the same way.
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  #1128  
Old 19.11.2014, 15:30
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Article 18 of the agreement makes provision for either party of the agreement to call for renegotiation of the agreement. The initiative calls for precisely that – the renegotiation.
Can you point me to the precise language of Article 18 that permits either party to unilaterally demand a renegotiation? also, can you point me to the language in the Swiss initiative that suggests that its passage was intended to merely trigger a "renegotiation"?

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  #1129  
Old 19.11.2014, 15:30
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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From the last I heard, the EU is not refusing to agree to "whatever Switzerland wants". The EU is refusing to meet at a negotiating table. That is a big difference when it comes to the right to renegotiate.
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Of course not - but they DO have to come to the renegotiation table! Have they done this? If so how did the negotiations proceed?
Seems to be a lot of poor hearing and selective memories in this thread

Do read this again (was posted many times) here.

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For fear of repeating myself. If an initiative suceeds, the initiave committe is invited to be involved in its implementation. The Mr Maurer argument is a straw man here. He was not part of the initiative committee. The Bundesrat is intentionally seeking to make this fail. That much is obvious.
About "The Bundesrat is intentionally seeking to make this fail." now you are talking about the Bundesrat again (including Mr Maurer)
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  #1130  
Old 19.11.2014, 15:33
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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It's not about education. It's about consequences. EU and CH agree on some things and they say that they can renegotiate. Granted. The EU also says that there are specific parts that will not accept to be renegotiated, namely the FMOP. If EU wanted to challenge a basic right in the Swiss constitution I suppose CH would have reacted in the same way.
Good point, for a concrete example suppose the EU said they wanted to renegotiate the agreements to stop Switzerland allowing referendums to change the Swiss constitution; do you suppose we would sit at the negotiating table?
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  #1131  
Old 19.11.2014, 16:02
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "The Bundesrat is intentionally seeking to make this fail." now you are talking about the Bundesrat again (including Mr Maurer)
Yes. Please try to keep up. The whole Mr Maurer thing is a straw man in this context.
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  #1132  
Old 19.11.2014, 16:04
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Good point, for a concrete example suppose the EU said they wanted to renegotiate the agreements to stop Switzerland allowing referendums to change the Swiss constitution; do you suppose we would sit at the negotiating table?
Nobody is asking the EU to disallow changes to their constitution. This is an apples and oranges comparison.
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  #1133  
Old 19.11.2014, 16:10
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Yes. Please try to keep up. The whole Mr Maurer thing is a straw man in this context.
I would like to keep up but why do you keep complaining about the actions of the Bundesrat that includes Mr Maurer
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  #1134  
Old 19.11.2014, 16:16
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Can you point me to the precise language of Article 18 that permits either party to unilaterally demand a renegotiation? also, can you point me to the language in the Swiss initiative that suggests that its passage was intended to merely trigger a "renegotiation"?
Here you go, crlazygringo:
Art. 18 Revision

Wünscht eine Vertragspartei eine Revision dieses Abkommens, so unterbreitet sie dem Gemischten Ausschuss hierzu einen Vorschlag. Die Änderung dieses Abkommens tritt nach Abschluss der jeweiligen internen Verfahren in Kraft; hiervon ausgenommen sind Änderungen der Anhänge II und III, die vom Gemischten Ausschuss beschlossen werden und sofort nach dessen Beschluss in Kraft treten können.
(source)
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  #1135  
Old 19.11.2014, 16:34
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I would like to keep up but why do you keep complaining about the actions of the Bundesrat that includes Mr Maurer
And this Mr Maurer, was he or was he not part of the initiative commitee?
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  #1136  
Old 19.11.2014, 16:34
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Nobody is asking the EU to disallow changes to their constitution. This is an apples and oranges comparison.
You don't know much about this topic?
There is no EU constitution so we can only compare with the EU treaties which are the nearest thing the EU has to a constitution.
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  #1137  
Old 19.11.2014, 16:36
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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You don't know much about this topic?
There is no EU constitution so we can only compare with the EU treaties which are the nearest thing the EU has to a constitution.
Since when are treaties with foreign countries a constitution?
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  #1138  
Old 19.11.2014, 16:38
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Can you point me to the precise language of Article 18 that permits either party to unilaterally demand a renegotiation?
I don't know about your wording per se, but here is the article text I am referring to:

Article 18
Revision
If a Contracting Party wishes to have this Agreement revised, it shall submit a proposal to that effect to the Joint Committee. (http://eur-lex.europa.eu)

Regarding the "Joint Committee":

Management by Joint Committee
A Joint EU-Swiss Committee made up of representatives from the two Parties shall be established to ensure compliance with, and application of, the Agreement. The Committee shall decide on any amendments required concerning specific annexes to the Agreement. They shall be responsible for settling any disputes related to compliance with the Agreement. (http://europa.eu)


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also, can you point me to the language in the Swiss initiative that suggests that its passage was intended to merely trigger a "renegotiation"?
Article 121a (new) regulation of immigration
1. Switzerland shall control the immigration of foreigners independently.


"Merely"!? Again, I don't know about your wording there... seems like you enjoy asking leading questions ...
But the very first line of the initiative goes contrary to the FMOP agreement, and this is the Swiss people's way of saying "This is what we would like to renegotiate concerning the current agreement" (or "revise").
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  #1139  
Old 19.11.2014, 16:45
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The EU also says that there are specific parts that will not accept to be renegotiated, namely the FMOP.
So then why does Article 18 exist at all!? Was the EU just bullshitting when it agreed to that part!? If there is no room for revision why agree to having a bleeding "Joint Committee" whose job it will be to "decide on any amendments required concerning specific annexes to the Agreement"?

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If EU wanted to challenge a basic right in the Swiss constitution I suppose CH would have reacted in the same way.
Erm ... so you are equating a nation's constitution to a bilateral treaty!?
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  #1140  
Old 19.11.2014, 16:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Erm ... so you are equating a nation's constitution to a bilateral treaty!?
When all western european governments keep flipping off Cameron by repeating again and again that the FMoP is one of the PILLARS of the EU treaty, how big a sign do you need to tell you that its as close to a constitutional article a supranational organisation like the EU can have.

So now, while not being a EU member, you want to decide how seriously the EU should take FMoP?

Then the EU should get a say in how seriously CH should take its referendums. Fair, no?
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