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  #1141  
Old 19.11.2014, 16:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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So it's a pedagogic exercise of punishing the people so they never dare vote against the wishes of the Bundesrat ever again?

Don't they have to swear an oath to become a Bundesrat, with something about upholding the best interests of the people rather than seeking to extract revenge.

If you are required to do something that you absolutely cannot agree with aned that you cannot swallow your pride over, the honorable thing is to resign, not to sabotage.
"Sabotage" - excellently summed up there what many people I have spoken to felt like regarding the Federal Committee after the vote. Even speaking to a friend of mine who was completely opposed to the MEI, when I said that it feels like the Federal Government was dragging it's feet in implementing the people's wish he replied with a grin, "Well obviously they are" ... So it's kind of an unofficial fact and acknowledged by both spectrum’s of the electorate.
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  #1142  
Old 19.11.2014, 16:57
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When all western european governments keep flipping off Cameron by repeating again and again that the FMoP is one of the PILLARS of the EU treaty, how big a sign do you need to tell you that its as close to a constitutional article a supranational organisation like the EU can have.

So now, while not being a EU member, you want to decide how seriously the EU should take FMoP?

Then the EU should get a say in how seriously CH should take its referendums. Fair, no?
Nope! Switzerland and the EU agreed on a treaty that gives provision for renegotiation/revision of that agreement! Switzerland and the EU never agreed on a treaty that gives provision for the EU to have "a say in how seriously CH should take its referendums"!
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  #1143  
Old 19.11.2014, 17:00
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I don't know about your wording per se, but here is the article text I am referring to:

Article 18
Revision
If a Contracting Party wishes to have this Agreement revised, it shall submit a proposal to that effect to the Joint Committee. (http://eur-lex.europa.eu)

Regarding the "Joint Committee":

Management by Joint Committee
A Joint EU-Swiss Committee made up of representatives from the two Parties shall be established to ensure compliance with, and application of, the Agreement. The Committee shall decide on any amendments required concerning specific annexes to the Agreement. They shall be responsible for settling any disputes related to compliance with the Agreement. (http://europa.eu)

Article 121a (new) regulation of immigration
1. Switzerland shall control the immigration of foreigners independently.

"Merely"!? Again, I don't know about your wording there... seems like you enjoy asking leading questions ...
But the very first line of the initiative goes contrary to the FMOP agreement, and this is the Swiss people's way of saying "This is what we would like to renegotiate concerning the current agreement" (or "revise").
I'm a lawyer, so of course I like asking leading questions.



The short answer is that there is no right to renegotiate FMOP, there is only a right to submit a proposal for amendment to what is effectively a joint contract administration committee. And, if that was the intent all along, then the SVP would have properly drafted an initiative that would accomplish it. To retroactively attribute intent to the SVP or the average Swiss voter which absolutely did not exist prior to the vote (unless it was simply overlooked in the thousands of hours and pages of media coverage regarding the initiative) is disingenuous at best.

I mean, unless the SVP never had any intention of actually accomplishing anything other than the release of some hot air and decades-long contintuent tension about fremde, ueberfremdung, masseneinwanderung or whatever we are calling it this time around. which would never be the objective of any political party, right?

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  #1144  
Old 19.11.2014, 17:03
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I'm a lawyer, so of course I like asking leading questions.


The short answer is that there is no right to renegotiate FMOP, there is only a right to submit a proposal for amendment to what is effectively a joint contract administration committee. And, if that was the intent all along, then the SVP would have properly drafted an initiative that would accomplish it.
Ok then, as a lawyer can you please create a draft to your liking that would accomplish the same objectives as the MEI?

And if the agreement is wholly non-negotiable what is the point of having an agreement that allows for the submission of revisions? Is it just the EU bullshitting!?
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  #1145  
Old 19.11.2014, 17:09
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Ok then, as a lawyer can you please create a draft to your liking that would accomplish the same objectives as the MEI?

And if the agreement is wholly non-negotiable what is the point of having an agreement that allows for the submission of revisions? Is it just the EU bullshitting!?
This is just being dense ....

If CH wanted to change something in the transport agreement, the EU would probably renegotiate, since nothing in it is a founding pillar for the EU.

The EU is not putting up FMoP for negotiation, no matter what you imagine Article 18 to be.
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  #1146  
Old 19.11.2014, 17:09
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Ok then, as a lawyer can you please create a draft to your liking that would accomplish the same objectives as the MEI?
well, first of all, the initiative does not even call for a proceeding under Article 18 of FMOP, it should have resulted in a proceeding under Article 17 and likely should have done so long before the actual vote was taken.

look, I am 110% sensitive to the itch that the SVP was pretending to scratch with MEI, which is the same itch the Ueberfremdung initiative in 1974 and the current Ecopop initiative are pretending to scratch. the simple reality, however, is that, if the average Swiss voter wants to do something about foreign immigration, then it needs to vote to stop permitting its constituent business and governmental interests from contracting for it. after all, all those pesky foreigners are not coming in uninvited and then looking for work, they are - by and large - coming in invited and with work permit already in hand. in fact, in many cases they are being recruited actively to come in, job listings are nearly overrun with Swiss firms looking for EU professionals willing to relocate to Switzerland.
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  #1147  
Old 19.11.2014, 17:26
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Here you go, crlazygringo:
Art. 18 Revision

Wünscht eine Vertragspartei eine Revision dieses Abkommens, so unterbreitet sie dem Gemischten Ausschuss hierzu einen Vorschlag. Die Änderung dieses Abkommens tritt nach Abschluss der jeweiligen internen Verfahren in Kraft; hiervon ausgenommen sind Änderungen der Anhänge II und III, die vom Gemischten Ausschuss beschlossen werden und sofort nach dessen Beschluss in Kraft treten können.
(source)
That's how a change can be initiated. Obviously it doesn't say the other party has to agree to re-negotiate.
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  #1148  
Old 19.11.2014, 17:33
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well, first of all, the initiative does not even call for a proceeding under Article 18 of FMOP, it should have resulted in a proceeding under Article 17 and likely should have done so long before the actual vote was taken.
Article 17
Development of law
1. As soon as one Contracting Party initiates the process of adopting a draft amendment to its domestic legislation, ... , it shall inform the other Contracting Party through the Joint Committee.


The MEI initiated the 3 year process for an amendment to the Swiss legislation (Constitution). Did the Federal Government "inform the other Contracting Party through the Joint Committee."?

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look, I am 110% sensitive to the itch that the SVP was pretending to scratch with MEI, which is the same itch the Ueberfremdung initiative in 1974 and the current Ecopop initiative are pretending to scratch. the simple reality, however, is that, if the average Swiss voter wants to do something about foreign immigration, then it needs to vote to stop permitting its constituent business and governmental interests from contracting for it. after all, all those pesky foreigners are not coming in uninvited and then looking for work, they are - by and large - coming in invited and with work permit already in hand. in fact, in many cases they are being recruited actively to come in, job listings are nearly overrun with Swiss firms looking for EU professionals willing to relocate to Switzerland.
You can believe that all you want, but that is not what I have found and experienced.

As I already said before:
"To my knowledge, and from my experience speaking with SVP members and/or pro-SVP Swiss citizens, both face to face and online/over the phone, the discomfort is specifically towards immigrants who are not seen as pulling their own weight. Those who are here in a productive and self-sustaining capacity are more then welcome. The only time employed immigrants might be less welcome is when they, for instance, are suspected of having been hired in the place of a Swiss person, perhaps due to excepting a lower salary/benefits etc ... But this, to my knowledge, would be the minority rather than the majority."
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  #1149  
Old 19.11.2014, 17:35
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Here you go, crlazygringo:
Art. 18 Revision

Wünscht eine Vertragspartei eine Revision dieses Abkommens, so unterbreitet sie dem Gemischten Ausschuss hierzu einen Vorschlag. Die Änderung dieses Abkommens tritt nach Abschluss der jeweiligen internen Verfahren in Kraft; hiervon ausgenommen sind Änderungen der Anhänge II und III, die vom Gemischten Ausschuss beschlossen werden und sofort nach dessen Beschluss in Kraft treten können.
(source)
I was not being lazy, but rather poking to see if the people who keep harping about a "right to renegotiate" had bothered to read the actual provisions of the Agreement, since Article 18 does not provide a "right to renegotiate" at all.
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  #1150  
Old 19.11.2014, 17:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The EU is not putting up FMoP for negotiation, no matter what you imagine Article 18 to be.
Well then, if that is true, the EU is in contempt of it's own agreement!
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  #1151  
Old 19.11.2014, 17:41
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I was not being lazy, but rather poking to see if the people who keep harping about a "right to renegotiate" had bothered to read the actual provisions of the Agreement, since Article 18 does not provide a "right to renegotiate" at all.
It's just quibbling now ... but, yes, it does give either party the right to call for renegotiation/revision of the agreement - if the other party does not agree to the revision then that concludes the negotiation - Plain and simple! The question is, has the negotiation in the Joint Committee even taken place? If so, what was the conclusion? If not, why not?
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Old 19.11.2014, 17:43
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Article 17
Development of law
1. As soon as one Contracting Party initiates the process of adopting a draft amendment to its domestic legislation, ... , it shall inform the other Contracting Party through the Joint Committee.

The MEI initiated the 3 year process for an amendment to the Swiss legislation (Constitution). Did the Federal Government "inform the other Contracting Party through the Joint Committee."?

You can believe that all you want, but that is not what I have found and experienced.

As I already said before:
"To my knowledge, and from my experience speaking with SVP members and/or pro-SVP Swiss citizens, both face to face and online/over the phone, the discomfort is specifically towards immigrants who are not seen as pulling their own weight. Those who are here in a productive and self-sustaining capacity are more then welcome. The only time employed immigrants might be less welcome is when they, for instance, are suspected of having been hired in the place of a Swiss person, perhaps due to excepting a lower salary/benefits etc ... But this, to my knowledge, would be the minority rather than the majority."
I honestly don't know if any notice was provided to the Joint Committee, though the reaction of the EU to the vote would suggest that it had not.

as to your quote, the plain language of MEI is not targeted at all at immigrants who are not pulling their own weight (with the exception of the language regarding asylum seekers), but rather seeks to permit the establishment of quotas for EU immigrants (in the same way as quotas already exist for non-EU immigrants). rather harmless in and of itself, of course, but entirely inconsistent with FMOP and, since the vast majority of EU immigration comes from Germany, not likely to play well with Switzerland's neighbor to the north.

perhaps part of the disconnect is the result of the Swiss penchant for indirect communication and passive aggressiveness. if the real concern is immigration from "undesirable" parts of the EU, then let's just say so and attack the problem head on - after all, that is precisely the immigration question that is being asked just about everywhere in central Europe right now.
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  #1153  
Old 19.11.2014, 17:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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It's just quibbling now ... but, yes, it does give either party the right to call for renegotiation/revision of the agreement - if the other party does not agree to the revision then that concludes the negotiation - Plain and simple! The question is, has the negotiation in the Joint Committee even taken place? If so, what was the conclusion? If not, why not?
Oh my god, yes, yes, as has been posted a number of times on the forum, the Bundesrat called for negotiation.

The EU started and ended it by saying, "we will not re-negotiate what CH want to re-negotiate".
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  #1154  
Old 19.11.2014, 17:57
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I honestly don't know if any notice was provided to the Joint Committee, though the reaction of the EU to the vote would suggest that it had not.
If this is indeed the case it would seem that the Federal Government has been off it's game in proceeding correctly with it's responsibilities to both the EU and the Swiss people.

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as to your quote, the plain language of MEI is not targeted at all at immigrants who are not pulling their own weight (with the exception of the language regarding asylum seekers), but rather seeks to permit the establishment of quotas for EU immigrants (in the same way as quotas already exist for non-EU immigrants). rather harmless in and of itself, of course, but entirely inconsistent with FMOP and, since the vast majority of EU immigration comes from Germany, not likely to play well with Switzerland's neighbor to the north.

perhaps part of the disconnect is the result of the Swiss penchant for indirect communication and passive aggressiveness. if the real concern is immigration from "undesirable" parts of the EU, then let's just say so and attack the problem head on - after all, that is precisely the immigration question that is being asked just about everywhere in central Europe right now.
Again, this to me is a matter of "you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't" - because in the current wording of the MEI one can complain that it doesn't SPECIFICALLY target XYZ, but then if it WERE to be more specific, say in targeting the ""undesirable" parts of the EU" the MEI would be burnt at the stake for being "discriminatory" - there is just NO WAY to please everyone!!

The text of the MEI does not need to target any group of immigrants specifically! Clause 3 of the MEI deals with the issue quite well ...

"3. The annual caps and quotas for foreigners that engage in gainful employment must be set on the basis of the overall interests of the Swiss economy and respecting the principle of preference for the Swiss; they must apply to cross-border workers as well. Decisive criteria for the issuance of a residence permit are in particular the application by an employer, the capability for integration, and a sufficient and independent livelihood."

The MEI also does not need to specify any particular part or nation of the EU.

"1. Switzerland shall control the immigration of foreigners independently."

Once put into effect the Swiss government can create tailor-made quotas for the EU as a whole, or for individual nations or groups of nations - as we deem in our best interest!
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  #1155  
Old 19.11.2014, 18:01
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Oh my god, yes, yes, as has been posted a number of times on the forum, the Bundesrat called for negotiation.

The EU started and ended it by saying, "we will not re-negotiate what CH want to re-negotiate".
Please provide proof that the negotiation has gone to the Joint Committee. I am not going to simply take your word for it ... and so far it doesn't seem like anyone else is sure about this.
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  #1156  
Old 19.11.2014, 18:09
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Please provide proof that the negotiation has gone to the Joint Committee. I am not going to simply take your word for it ... and so far it doesn't seem like anyone else is sure about this.
That is part of the disconnect, there is no right to even request a renegotiation, all Article 18 says is that a party can submit a proposal for amendment to the joint committee. There is no obligation of the joint committee to formally respond, even. In practical terms, provisions like Article 18 do not give either party any rights that it would not have if the agreement were silent on the point, since a party can always ask the other party to amend an agreement.

As to your other post, I hear you but that is not the basis upon which the SVP sold the initiative to the public. This is part of what makes me so curious about Ecopop, since at least Ecopop would actually address the real concern of many Swiss voters regarding overcrowding, sustainability of infrastructure, traffic, etc.
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  #1157  
Old 19.11.2014, 18:13
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That is part of the disconnect, there is no right to even request a renegotiation, all Article 18 says is that a party can submit a proposal for amendment to the joint committee. There is no obligation of the joint committee to formally respond, even. In practical terms, provisions like Article 18 do not give either party any rights that it would not have if the agreement were silent on the point, since a party can always ask the other party to amend an agreement.
So are you saying that Article 18 is completely useless then?
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Old 19.11.2014, 18:22
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So are you saying that Article 18 is completely useless then?
as a lawyer, yes, clauses like Art 18 are completely useless. in the US we would call clauses like Art 18 "motherhood and apple pie", because they look and sound great to laypeople but don't give either party any actual rights or obligations.

if Switzerland really wanted to address its legitimate concerns regarding immigration, then it should have approached the EU behind closed doors and sought to negotiate an amicable solution to problems that most of the major EU member states are also struggling with. hell, the recent ISIS crisis has only further highlighted the perceived issue all over Europe, and many EU member states are now beginning to look much more closely at immigration. instead, however, it has bumbled and blustered its way to something of a stalemate (in which it holds remarkably less leverage than it thinks), and has only engendered ill will in the process.

if Ecopop passes, of course, MEI will be a distant memory and Switzerland will have a far more direct issue to confront with the EU.
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Old 19.11.2014, 18:26
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Please provide proof that the negotiation has gone to the Joint Committee. I am not going to simply take your word for it ... and so far it doesn't seem like anyone else is sure about this.
Based on the amount of hair splitting your posts show, this will probably go nowhere as well, but here is an article about the response of the EU.
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Old 19.11.2014, 18:34
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For fear of repeating myself. If an initiative suceeds, the initiave committe is invited to be involved in its implementation. The Mr Maurer argument is a straw man here. He was not part of the initiative committee. The Bundesrat is intentionally seeking to make this fail. That much is obvious.
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Come on, I was expecting better of you. This really is clutching at straws

Firstly, Mrs Sommaruga and her folks are handling this. I'm not aware of Maurer having been involved in any way.

Secondy, whether or not Mr Maurer was sent to Brussels to renogiate, that is a red herring. Normally when there is an initiative, the iniators of the initiative are invited to assist in its implementation, not the Bundesrat's pet representative of said faction. So not Mr Maurer should have been invited but the people who specifically initiated and ran the campaign.
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Yes. Please try to keep up. The whole Mr Maurer thing is a straw man in this context.
I will try to explain this in simple terms although you should already know this.

When you complain about the actions or policies of the "the Bundesrat" or the "Federal Govt." then you are complaining about a group of 7 people.

Each is not only responsible for their own department, but also for the business of their colleagues' departments as well, and for the conduct of the government and the federal administration as a whole. All decisions are group decisions and there is group responsibility.
There is also the important principle of collegiality

I can understand you want to hide the responsibility of SVP Maurer in this area but it won't work

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Since when are treaties with foreign countries a constitution?
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Erm ... so you are equating a nation's constitution to a bilateral treaty!?
Finally you got the point! Hurrah!!
I quote "In the June 2007 European summit meeting, Member States agreed to abandon the constitution and to amend the existing treaties, which would remain in force."
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