Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1201  
Old 04.12.2014, 21:29
11HoursInTheTinPan's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 504
Groaned at 19 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 892 Times in 354 Posts
11HoursInTheTinPan has a reputation beyond repute11HoursInTheTinPan has a reputation beyond repute11HoursInTheTinPan has a reputation beyond repute11HoursInTheTinPan has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Article in Blick today about former senior SVP politician Peter Spuhler; White Russia Dictator Alexander Lukaschenko describes Spuhler as "more White Russian than Swiss", link here (in German).

Spuhler is expanding his production facilities in White Russia in a big way, the company operates factories in Switzerland, Germany, Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Italy, Austria, Belarus, Algeria, and the USA. The company employs about 6,000 people, including 3,000 people in Switzerland.

Makes sense to produce more abroad if there will be limits on immigrants?
I'm sure the February vote was the reason why they started constructing the plant in...2013 - as well as the one in Poland in 2007.


If you interpret every investment of a Swiss company in a facility abroad as consequence of the February vote, you will have to take up posting to this thread as a full time job.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 11HoursInTheTinPan for this useful post:
  #1202  
Old 09.12.2014, 14:16
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,583
Groaned at 249 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 11,609 Times in 6,342 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Please provide proof that the negotiation has gone to the Joint Committee. I am not going to simply take your word for it ... and so far it doesn't seem like anyone else is sure about this.
It seems the negotiation request went to the EU General Affairs Council in June.

The General Affairs Council is a configuration of the Council of the European Union and meets once a month. Meetings bring together the Foreign Ministers of the Member States. Ministers responsible for European Affairs also participate depending on the items on agenda.

For the next meeting on 16th December 2014 the following draft will be discussed and decided: "The Council reaffirms its negative answer to the Swiss request of June, to renegotiate the (freedom of movement) agreement."

Do you see the part in bold - The Council reaffirms its negative answer ?
I do not see how Switzerland can expect more than the negotiation request was reviewed and decided by a group of all EU foreign ministers?
Reply With Quote
  #1203  
Old 09.12.2014, 14:26
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,253
Groaned at 181 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 17,624 Times in 7,484 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Article in Blick today about former senior SVP politician Peter Spuhler; White Russia Dictator Alexander Lukaschenko describes Spuhler as "more White Russian than Swiss", link here (in German).

Spuhler is expanding his production facilities in White Russia in a big way, the company operates factories in Switzerland, Germany, Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Italy, Austria, Belarus, Algeria, and the USA. The company employs about 6,000 people, including 3,000 people in Switzerland.

Makes sense to produce more abroad if there will be limits on immigrants?
Many of these contracts were actually won on the condition that Spuhler would create jobs locally. It is in fact his willingness to do so that makes him so succesful.

If it was genuinely the case that Switzerland was so unnattractive, he would be seeking to create one mega-plant somehwere outside Switzerland, not one for every country where he has a market.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #1204  
Old 09.12.2014, 14:29
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
It seems the negotiation request went to the EU General Affairs Council in June.

The General Affairs Council is a configuration of the Council of the European Union and meets once a month. Meetings bring together the Foreign Ministers of the Member States. Ministers responsible for European Affairs also participate depending on the items on agenda.

For the next meeting on 16th December 2014 the following draft will be discussed and decided: "The Council reaffirms its negative answer to the Swiss request of June, to renegotiate the (freedom of movement) agreement."

Do you see the part in bold - The Council reaffirms its negative answer ?
I do not see how Switzerland can expect more than the negotiation request was reviewed and decided by a group of all EU foreign ministers?
So it's never gone to the Joint Committee then ...

In the meantime the EU is doing this: http://www.luzernerzeitung.ch/nachri...rt46442,457450

So let me get this straight ... Swiss people vote democratically, to which the EU gives the middle finger saying they will not renegotiate anything - Then the EU performs the above stunt and we are just supposed to bend over and take it!? Yeah - I can see how this is fair and is really going to win the Swiss people over ...
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #1205  
Old 09.12.2014, 15:05
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,583
Groaned at 249 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 11,609 Times in 6,342 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
So it's never gone to the Joint Committee then ...

In the meantime the EU is doing this: http://www.luzernerzeitung.ch/nachri...rt46442,457450

So let me get this straight ... Swiss people vote democratically, to which the EU gives the middle finger saying they will not renegotiate anything - Then the EU performs the above stunt and we are just supposed to bend over and take it!? Yeah - I can see how this is fair and is really going to win the Swiss people over ...
Well the EU General Affairs Council is a more senior group than this Joint Committee; perhaps you know the expression "why ask the monkey when you can speak to the organ grinder"?
(Organ grinders being the boss, and the monkey being the one who helps him out.)
According to the EU here there are more than 15 joint committees managing these bilateral agreements between the EU and Switzerland

About "the EU gives the middle finger" the same council said in March;
"The Council of European Union respects the internal democratic procedures of Switzerland and the outcome of the referendum. On the other hand, the Council expects the Swiss Confederation to honour its obligations arising from its agreements and treaties with the European Union."

In fact it was Switzerland who gave the EU the middle finger.
It was the Swiss people who voted to no longer honour their treaty obligations so what would be your expectation or concrete result from a success in "win the Swiss people over"?

As you know the implementation of this referendum would entail the renunciation of the agreement on the free movement of people and then triggering of the Guillotine clause collapsing the other six Bilateral I agreements.
This would be a pity as Switzerland exports to the EU are around 100 billion euro per year.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #1206  
Old 09.12.2014, 15:32
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Well the EU General Affairs Council is a more senior group than this Joint Committee; perhaps you know the expression "why ask the monkey when you can speak to the organ grinder"?
(Organ grinders being the boss, and the monkey being the one who helps him out.)
According to the EU here there are more than 15 joint committees managing these bilateral agreements between the EU and Switzerland
1. The Joint Committee is comprised of both EU and Swiss representatives - the GA Council is not. - See the difference?

2. The Joint Committee is mentioned in Article 18 of the FMOP agreement contract - the GA Council isn't.

Quote:
About "the EU gives the middle finger" the same council said in March;
"The Council of European Union respects the internal democratic procedures of Switzerland and the outcome of the referendum. On the other hand, the Council expects the Swiss Confederation to honour its obligations arising from its agreements and treaties with the European Union."
It is ALWAYS desired that both parties of an agreement abide by the agreement - UNTIL one party calls the other back to the negotiation table. As equal partners (as is the wording in the contracts between the EU and Switzerland) they should be open to renegotiation and dialogue - more than stating "we will not negotiate"!

Quote:
In fact it was Switzerland who gave the EU the middle finger.
It was the Swiss people who voted to no longer honour their treaty obligations
If the Swiss people wanting to regain control of their own immigration policy in this regard was giving the middle finger to the EU then so be it! - This, of course, paints a very negative picture of the EU.

The Swiss people voted as an independent and free people - even though we are loosing both our freedom and independence to the EU bit by bit. They, WE, voted for the right to determine immigration policy in this regard - we voted for a transitional period of time wherein which the Federal Government have the opportunity to do their job, as the Swiss people's representatives on a Federal level, to RENEGOTIATE the FMOP agreement with the EU - which again comes to the question; "What is so arbitrarily wrong with calling your equal partner to the renegotiation table?!" - I'll answer myself - Nothing! Does this break the FMOP agreement? - NO! It does not! - If the renegotiation’s don't reach a mutual agreeable end will the FMOP be dropped by Switzerland? - According to the MEI, yes! - If Brussels refuses to renegotiate will the FMOP be dropped by Switzerland? - According to the MEI, yes!

Quote:
As you know the implementation of this referendum would entail the renunciation of the agreement on the free movement of people
False! The implementation of the MEI could take place with a mutually agreeable solution and thus an amended form of the FMOP could very possibly still be in effect! Will Brussels come to the negotiation table!? - Doesn't look like it ...

Quote:
and then triggering of the Guillotine clause collapsing the other six Bilateral I agreements.
This would be a pity as Switzerland exports to the EU are around 100 billion euro per year.
Yes, we Swiss are completely at the mercy of the great, unbeatable, can-do-no-wrong, EU ...
I am getting more and more into this subject and the more I look the more I see the EU benefiting from Switzerland in so many ways that I have never heard of before. Point is, I think more and more that Switzerland could also play a very good game of tit-for-tat!

(Just an addon for you to enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAvTicbLD4s#t=1107 )
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #1207  
Old 09.12.2014, 15:53
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,583
Groaned at 249 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 11,609 Times in 6,342 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

This thread is increasingly like those boring threads where people write
" I was photographed by a speed camera for driving too fast.
I wrote and told them all the good reasons but they still fined me "

It is clear that the EU will not negotiate and consequently probably will terminate the bilaterals.

Consequently it is time to stop whining and ranting.
Time to stop trying to read the small print of the agreements for options that do not exist.
Time to stop fantasising a joint committee could change or overrule a decision by a council comprising all the EU foreign ministers.
Time to figure out how Switzerland will survive its own massive miscalculation and move forward without too much damage to our economy.
Time to man up and accept the consequences of our voting.

about "Yes, we Swiss are completely at the mercy of the great, unbeatable, can-do-no-wrong, EU" Indeed, selbst Schuld.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #1208  
Old 09.12.2014, 16:05
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Consequently it is time to stop whining and ranting.
Please, by all means stop whining and ranting .

Quote:
Time to stop trying to read the small print of the agreements for options that do not exist.
Nope - I will continue to read the fine print and respect the options that are presented - even if you don't!

Quote:
Time to stop fantasising a joint committee could change or overrule a decision by a council comprising all the EU foreign ministers.
Nope - I will continue to point to the contract and state that a Joint Committee is what what is mentioned - even if you won't accept that!

Quote:
Time to figure out how Switzerland will survive its own massive miscalculation and move forward without too much damage to our economy.
We will survive just fine thanks! Time for more nations fettered to the EU/Euro Titanic to jump ship too! We also realise that there is more to living a happy life than never ending so-called "economic growth"!

Quote:
Time to man up and accept the consequences of our voting.
The only ones I fail to see "man-ing up" are those "whining and ranting" about how Switzerland is doomed after having democratically chosen to regain it's right to controlling it's immigration policy in this way.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #1209  
Old 09.12.2014, 16:09
Kosti's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oranje County
Posts: 488
Groaned at 27 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 871 Times in 364 Posts
Kosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
This thread is increasingly like those boring threads where people write
" I was photographed by a speed camera for driving too fast.
I wrote and told them all the good reasons but they still fined me "

It is clear that the EU will not negotiate and consequently probably will terminate the bilaterals.

Consequently it is time to stop whining and ranting.
Time to stop trying to read the small print of the agreements for options that do not exist.
Time to stop fantasising a joint committee could change or overrule a decision by a council comprising all the EU foreign ministers.
Time to figure out how Switzerland will survive its own massive miscalculation and move forward without too much damage to our economy.
Time to man up and accept the consequences of our voting.

about "Yes, we Swiss are completely at the mercy of the great, unbeatable, can-do-no-wrong, EU" Indeed, selbst Schuld.
This thread has gone on for pages and pages around this, and instead of trying to reason with some "Evil EU" posters, pay heed now to the great George Carlin-

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Kosti for this useful post:
  #1210  
Old 09.12.2014, 16:09
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,981
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,049 Times in 1,795 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
1. The Joint Committee is comprised of both EU and Swiss representatives - the GA Council is not. - See the difference?

2. The Joint Committee is mentioned in Article 18 of the FMOP agreement contract - the GA Council isn't.

It is ALWAYS desired that both parties of an agreement abide by the agreement - UNTIL one party calls the other back to the negotiation table. As equal partners (as is the wording in the contracts between the EU and Switzerland) they should be open to renegotiation and dialogue - more than stating "we will not negotiate"!

If the Swiss people wanting to regain control of their own immigration policy in this regard was giving the middle finger to the EU then so be it! - This, of course, paints a very negative picture of the EU.

The Swiss people voted as an independent and free people - even though we are loosing both our freedom and independence to the EU bit by bit. They, WE, voted for the right to determine immigration policy in this regard - we voted for a transitional period of time wherein which the Federal Government have the opportunity to do their job, as the Swiss people's representatives on a Federal level, to RENEGOTIATE the FMOP agreement with the EU - which again comes to the question; "What is so arbitrarily wrong with calling your equal partner to the renegotiation table?!" - I'll answer myself - Nothing! Does this break the FMOP agreement? - NO! It does not! - If the renegotiation’s don't reach a mutual agreeable end will the FMOP be dropped by Switzerland? - According to the MEI, yes! - If Brussels refuses to renegotiate will the FMOP be dropped by Switzerland? - According to the MEI, yes!

False! The implementation of the MEI could take place with a mutually agreeable solution and thus an amended form of the FMOP could very possibly still be in effect! Will Brussels come to the negotiation table!? - Doesn't look like it ...

Yes, we Swiss are completely at the mercy of the great, unbeatable, can-do-no-wrong, EU ...
I am getting more and more into this subject and the more I look the more I see the EU benefiting from Switzerland in so many ways that I have never heard of before. Point is, I think more and more that Switzerland could also play a very good game of tit-for-tat!

(Just an addon for you to enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAvTicbLD4s#t=1107 )
while I remain entirely sensitive to the many reasons the average Swiss voter would have voted "yes" on MEI, the simple reality is that MEI results in an amendment to the Swiss Constitution that is completely at odds with Switzerland's existing treaty obligations to the EU. there is absolutely nothing whatsoever about MEI that calls for a "renegotiation", unless you accept the bizarre theory that the proper way to ask for a "renegotiation" is to anticipatorily breach your obligations. right, wrong or indifferent, FMOP is considered to be a central part of EU trade access by the EU establishment (at least presently). it should therefore come as no surprise to the average Swiss voter that MEI puts Switzerland's trade access within the EU at risk.

btw, any notion that an economic trade zone of more than 500 million potential consumers actually cares one way or the other about a single non-member country of 8 million potential consumers is about as myopically-nationalistic as it gets. I don't say this because I think the EU is right or wrong, or because I think a non-member country of 8 million potential consumers is unimportant, I am just pointing out the leverage realities - like it or not, the EU has the leverage here.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #1211  
Old 09.12.2014, 16:33
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
there is absolutely nothing whatsoever about MEI that calls for a "renegotiation"
False.

"The transitional provisions of the Federal Constitution be amended as follows:
Article 197 para. 9 (new)
9. Transitional provision to Article 121a ( immigration control )
1. The international treaties contradicting art. 121a must be renegotiated and made conforming within three years from the acceptance of that article by the People and the Cantons."


Quote:
it should therefore come as no surprise to the average Swiss voter that MEI puts Switzerland's trade access within the EU at risk.
It isn't a surprise to any of those I know who voted YES - myself included. Many of us are anyhow not willing to abdicate anything and everything for the sake of the "trade access".

Quote:
btw, any notion that an economic trade zone of more than 500 million potential consumers actually cares one way or the other about a single non-member country of 8 million potential consumers is about as myopically-nationalistic as it gets. I don't say this because I think the EU is right or wrong, or because I think a non-member country of 8 million potential consumers is unimportant, I am just pointing out the leverage realities - like it or not, the EU has the leverage here.
Exactly - so how can this really be a a series of agreements between equal partners when it so obviously is altogether slanted in favour of the EU!? As I have already surmised before, Switzerland, due to the Bilaterals, has to deal with certain negative side-effects of the EU, whereas the EU bears no negative consequences from Switzerland due to the Bilaterals! Between the two "partners" the EU is the sole party which only benefits from the agreements!
The negative side-effects of the Bilaterals have been tolerated by the Swiss because they did not wish Brussels to discriminate against their economy. We agreed to the Bilaterals in a different time and with different realities and promises than we experience now. The EU used the threat of discrimination against the Swiss economy, not completely unlike economic sanctions, if Switzerland did not agree to a swathe of contracts - and since then the EU has been upping the ante, adding something here and there, only increasing it's own benefit whilst completely ignoring the negative consequences it's agreements were having on Switzerland! Is it REALLY any wonder that the Swiss people are getting fed up and wanting things to change!? I don't think so!
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #1212  
Old 09.12.2014, 16:40
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,253
Groaned at 181 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 17,624 Times in 7,484 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
It seems the negotiation request went to the EU General Affairs Council in June.

The General Affairs Council is a configuration of the Council of the European Union and meets once a month. Meetings bring together the Foreign Ministers of the Member States. Ministers responsible for European Affairs also participate depending on the items on agenda.

For the next meeting on 16th December 2014 the following draft will be discussed and decided: "The Council reaffirms its negative answer to the Swiss request of June, to renegotiate the (freedom of movement) agreement."

Do you see the part in bold - The Council reaffirms its negative answer ?
I do not see how Switzerland can expect more than the negotiation request was reviewed and decided by a group of all EU foreign ministers?
I wonder if the minutes of said meeting (and especially the specific reasons for upholding the negative answer) are made available under the public information act, and if, so, if they can be appealed, or at least held up as evidence of obstructionism on the part of the EU.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #1213  
Old 09.12.2014, 16:50
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,981
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,049 Times in 1,795 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
False.

"The transitional provisions of the Federal Constitution be amended as follows:
Article 197 para. 9 (new)
9. Transitional provision to Article 121a ( immigration control )
1. The international treaties contradicting art. 121a must be renegotiated and made conforming within three years from the acceptance of that article by the People and the Cantons."


It isn't a surprise to any of those I know who voted YES - myself included. Many of us are anyhow not willing to abdicate anything and everything for the sake of the "trade access".

Exactly - so how can this really be a a series of agreements between equal partners when it so obviously is altogether slanted in favour of the EU!? As I have already surmised before, Switzerland, due to the Bilaterals, has to deal with certain negative side-effects of the EU, whereas the EU bears no negative consequences from Switzerland due to the Bilaterals! Between the two "partners" the EU is the sole party which only benefits from the agreements!
The negative side-effects of the Bilaterals have been tolerated by the Swiss because they did not wish Brussels to discriminate against their economy. We agreed to the Bilaterals in a different time and with different realities and promises than we experience now. The EU used the threat of discrimination against the Swiss economy, not completely unlike economic sanctions, if Switzerland did not agree to a swathe of contracts - and since then the EU has been upping the ante, adding something here and there, only increasing it's own benefit whilst completely ignoring the negative consequences it's agreements were having on Switzerland! Is it REALLY any wonder that the Swiss people are getting fed up and wanting things to change!? I don't think so!
yes, I know what "neu zu verhandeln" translates into in English, but the text also requires measures to be taken to put the amendments into effect even if the Swiss efforts to conform FMOP to MEI are unsuccessful. there is absolutely nothing two-way about MEI, all it does is require take without empowering any give, which is hardly a negotiation but rather a Hobson's Choice for the EU.



as for the rest of your post, you have finally touched upon the real issue - the EU and Switzerland are not equal partners at all. as a Swiss voter, you are under no obligation whatsoever to like the EU, or to like the way it structures trade access to its markets, or the way it handles FMOP, or anything else for that matter, and I would completely understand your rationale and not think it unreasonable. the flip side, however, is that there would be nothing at all unreasonable about the EU, in the absence of treaty obligations to the contrary, cutting off a non-member's access to its markets and people.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #1214  
Old 09.12.2014, 17:06
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
there is absolutely nothing two-way about MEI, all it does is require take without empowering any give
And Switzerland does not NEED to give anymore to the EU than it has already been giving and continues to give! The negative effects of the Bilaterals is increasing with every passing year for Switzerland, while the benefits are not! There is ALREADY a gross imbalance in existence - so much so that the MEI is merely a step towards bringing about some much needed balance to the agreements and effects thereof.

Quote:
as for the rest of your post, you have finally touched upon the real issue - the EU and Switzerland are not equal partners at all. as a Swiss voter, you are under no obligation whatsoever to like the EU, or to like the way it structures trade access to its markets, or the way it handles FMOP, or anything else for that matter, and I would completely understand your rationale and not think it unreasonable. the flip side, however, is that there would be nothing at all unreasonable about the EU, in the absence of treaty obligations to the contrary, cutting off a non-member's access to its markets and people.
I believe there is a distinct difference between saying that I do not wish a foreign governmental body deciding the fate of Switzerland or infringing on my right as a Swiss for self-determination, and then on the other hand discriminating against another country's economy! There is no intrinsic need for the EU to discriminate against the Swiss economy. There is no reason why the EU and Switzerland cannot have strong and mutually beneficial economic ties, WITHOUT the political overshadowing of Brussels! The fact of the matter is that the EU uses it's 500 million consumer base as a lure, as bait, to attract other countries to not only do business with it, but to ALSO effectively bribe them into accepting the 'attached' agreements, some of which come with a host of underlying and longterm negative side effects! THIS is what it amounts to - you want to have access to the EU consumer base? - Then you gotta accept some of this EU mess as well!! The thing is that the "mess" part of the agreement was vastly underestimated by the Swiss government, and THAT is why things have to change - because quite simply the stakes have already changed!
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #1215  
Old 09.12.2014, 18:49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Basel
Posts: 391
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 309 Times in 149 Posts
terramundi has an excellent reputationterramundi has an excellent reputationterramundi has an excellent reputationterramundi has an excellent reputation
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

I haven't read the whole thread I must confess but wanted to add that one motivation for the EU to be so strict with the Swiss about FMOP may be that there are grumbles from other EU member states about immigration. Britain is the one I know best moaning about too many other Europeans immigrating, but there are rumblings from plenty of other places too. So The EU will presumable really want to show a hardline and state clearly that FMOP is a non negotiable principle and that other trading partners outside the EU need to accept that to have the 'privilege' of the other stuff. Can't allow the Swiss wriggle room just in case the UK etc. then ask for the same concessions.

ETA; I love that George Carlin quote!
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank terramundi for this useful post:
  #1216  
Old 09.12.2014, 19:17
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,583
Groaned at 249 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 11,609 Times in 6,342 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
View Post
And Switzerland does not NEED to give anymore to the EU than it has already been giving and continues to give! The negative effects of the Bilaterals is increasing with every passing year for Switzerland, while the benefits are not! There is ALREADY a gross imbalance in existence - so much so that the MEI is merely a step towards bringing about some much needed balance to the agreements and effects thereof.



I believe there is a distinct difference between saying that I do not wish a foreign governmental body deciding the fate of Switzerland or infringing on my right as a Swiss for self-determination, and then on the other hand discriminating against another country's economy! There is no intrinsic need for the EU to discriminate against the Swiss economy. There is no reason why the EU and Switzerland cannot have strong and mutually beneficial economic ties, WITHOUT the political overshadowing of Brussels! The fact of the matter is that the EU uses it's 500 million consumer base as a lure, as bait, to attract other countries to not only do business with it, but to ALSO effectively bribe them into accepting the 'attached' agreements, some of which come with a host of underlying and longterm negative side effects! THIS is what it amounts to - you want to have access to the EU consumer base? - Then you gotta accept some of this EU mess as well!! The thing is that the "mess" part of the agreement was vastly underestimated by the Swiss government, and THAT is why things have to change - because quite simply the stakes have already changed!
About "I believe there is a distinct difference between saying that I do not wish a foreign governmental body deciding the fate of Switzerland..."

Problem is that Switzerland did sign these EU treaties in 1999 and there were several referendums that supported such closer ties with the EU.
Now Switzerland wants to make major changes to these existing agreements. If you want to make major changes to, for example, existing agreements like car leasing or flat rental or similar then there are consequences. Same situation with the Bilaterals. No such thing as a free lunch

You believe that the Bilaterals have had negative effects; will be interesting to see how things change without them

About "I think more and more that Switzerland could also play a very good game of tit-for-tat!" Yes, I am sure the EU will be terrified, I certainly am!

Quote:
View Post
I haven't read the whole thread I must confess but wanted to add that one motivation for the EU to be so strict with the Swiss about FMOP may be that there are grumbles from other EU member states about immigration. Britain is the one I know best moaning about too many other Europeans immigrating, but there are rumblings from plenty of other places too. So The EU will presumable really want to show a hardline and state clearly that FMOP is a non negotiable principle and that other trading partners outside the EU need to accept that to have the 'privilege' of the other stuff. Can't allow the Swiss wriggle room just in case the UK etc. then ask for the same concessions.

ETA; I love that George Carlin quote!
Actually the source of the quote is wrong; some people say it was actually Mark Twain and others point to the Bible - Proverbs 26:4 (King James version)

Last edited by 3Wishes; 09.12.2014 at 20:03. Reason: merging successive posts
Reply With Quote
  #1217  
Old 09.12.2014, 20:47
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
And Switzerland does not NEED to give anymore to the EU than it has already been giving and continues to give! The negative effects of the Bilaterals is increasing with every passing year for Switzerland, while the benefits are not! There is ALREADY a gross imbalance in existence - so much so that the MEI is merely a step towards bringing about some much needed balance to the agreements and effects thereof.
Clearly, the EU uses strong arm tactics, which creates some resentment. It speaks the language of coercion. It doesn't seem to balance it with the intent and spirit of real cooperation. After the soft-sell, the customer is locked in for the hard sell.

There seems to be some cooperation at the implementation level among government agencies that is not explicitly written in the agreements. For example, CH implemented a quota on non-EU work permits that has no benefits for Switzerland but benefits the EU. This was seemingly given away by CH in the spirit of cooperation, and does not have any effect on immigration numbers. I assume there is closer cooperation amongst law enforcement, border control and even air traffic.

At the moment, MEI is not implementable as a migration quota under current bilateral agreements. The EU does not want to renegotiate it. But what if the relationship loses some unwritten cooperations? It may be possible to limit immigration through some other ways. Kantons and Communities could start capping the number of immigrants they take in. They can make the process for immigration more difficult, or set new rules and incentives for housing. Should this happen, will the EU recognize the need for more cooperative arrangements, as opposed to strictly coerced arrangements?
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Phos for this useful post:
  #1218  
Old 09.12.2014, 20:57
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,253
Groaned at 181 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 17,624 Times in 7,484 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Can't allow the Swiss wriggle room just in case the UK etc. then ask for the same concessions.
Chances are, the UK will ask anyway.

And it seems to me to be just a question of time that other countries with center right governments will start pandering to Euroscepticism if they don't want their own versions of UKIP to contend with.

The EU may well find itself backtracking sooner or later, so all this grandstanding may well come back too haunt them.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #1219  
Old 09.12.2014, 20:59
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 21,038
Groaned at 445 Times in 337 Posts
Thanked 23,990 Times in 10,889 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

France of course as Marine Le Pen- now adopting Green à la Ecopop attitudes to attract 'greenies' from the left
Reply With Quote
  #1220  
Old 09.12.2014, 21:17
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,583
Groaned at 249 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 11,609 Times in 6,342 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Clearly, the EU uses strong arm tactics, which creates some resentment. It speaks the language of coercion. It doesn't seem to balance it with the intent and spirit of real cooperation. After the soft-sell, the customer is locked in for the hard sell.

There seems to be some cooperation at the implementation level among government agencies that is not explicitly written in the agreements. For example, CH implemented a quota on non-EU work permits that has no benefits for Switzerland but benefits the EU. This was seemingly given away by CH in the spirit of cooperation, and does not have any effect on immigration numbers. I assume there is closer cooperation amongst law enforcement, border control and even air traffic.

At the moment, MEI is not implementable as a migration quota under current bilateral agreements. The EU does not want to renegotiate it. But what if the relationship loses some unwritten cooperations? It may be possible to limit immigration through some other ways. Kantons and Communities could start capping the number of immigrants they take in. They can make the process for immigration more difficult, or set new rules and incentives for housing. Should this happen, will the EU recognize the need for more cooperative arrangements, as opposed to strictly coerced arrangements?
About "Kantons and Communities could start capping the number of immigrants they take in. " True but would this satisfy the MEI people where the vote was specifically for "The transitional provisions of the Federal Constitution be amended......" ? I do not believe so!

Anyway EAB and his colleagues plan to take the EU to the European court of Justice for breach of contract "I will continue to point to the contract and state that a Joint Committee is what what is mentioned".
Oh sorry I forgot EAB and his colleagues do not support "the European court of Justice" so I wonder where they plan to pursue the "breach of contract"?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
erasmus, european union, fmop, horizon, immigration, masseneinwanderung, vote




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Immigration status of Non-EU starting a business in Switzerland alesco Business & entrepreneur 28 09.11.2015 14:26
Masseneinwanderung [Immigration] vote - Facts Slaphead Swiss politics/news 4 29.06.2014 19:59
Is there any age limits to starting a PhD? Breezy Family matters/health 15 18.11.2012 01:23
Immigration limits in the UK: what about scientists? HashBrown International affairs/politics 5 08.10.2010 00:29


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0