Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1221  
Old 09.12.2014, 21:24
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
About "Kantons and Communities could start capping the number of immigrants they take in. " True but would this satisfy the MEI people where the vote was specifically for "The transitional provisions of the Federal Constitution be amended......" ? I do not believe so!
Is that really true? We know what "ends" was voted for, but does the referendum stipulate the "means"? I assumed in regards to strategy and implementation, the government was given a free hand on how to accomplish it?

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but does EAB describe the action they will take in this thread? If so, I will read it. I'm curious to see on which grounds they could claim a breach of contract, and which court will even listen to it. This strikes me more of a diplomatic rather than a legal issue.
Reply With Quote
  #1222  
Old 09.12.2014, 21:24
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,564
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,561 Times in 6,313 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Chances are, the UK will ask anyway.

And it seems to me to be just a question of time that other countries with center right governments will start pandering to Euroscepticism if they don't want their own versions of UKIP to contend with.

The EU may well find itself backtracking sooner or later, so all this grandstanding may well come back too haunt them.
This situation is best described in the quote from Lyndon B. Johnson;
"It's probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in."
On FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, as quoted in The New York Times (31 October 1971).
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #1223  
Old 09.12.2014, 21:28
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Problem is that Switzerland did sign these EU treaties in 1999 and there were several referendums that supported such closer ties with the EU.
Now Switzerland wants to make major changes to these existing agreements. If you want to make major changes to, for example, existing agreements like car leasing or flat rental or similar then there are consequences. Same situation with the Bilaterals. No such thing as a free lunch
Yes, I agree - signing those EU treaties really was problematic - On the other hand there is no problem with the act of calling for renegotiation of those same treaties since there is nothing within those treaties that bans either party from requesting renegotiation - in fact, in light of Article 18 it is guaranteed by the contract! Additionally these treaties did not carry with them a binding time frame - as such either party can back off from the treaties at any time they see fit!
Furthermore, the only one getting a "free lunch" between the EU and Switzerland is clearly the EU, since they pay no price for the benefits they acquire from the Bilaterals with Switzerland! Switzerland, on the other hand, is told to sit down, shut up, and be grateful for whatever they get from the EU - at any cost!

Quote:
You believe that the Bilaterals have had negative effects; will be interesting to see how things change without them
Again, the lame scare tactics.
The best thing we Swiss can do for our economy right now is to take all possible steps to wean our economy off the EU - ie. by entering more trade agreements with the BRICS nations and others!
Apart from that we will still be able to have all the foreign workers and expertise that we need and want. It's a global world and it makes no sense to be locked into dealing with these blackmailing and extortionist EU bureaucrats!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #1224  
Old 09.12.2014, 21:35
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,564
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,561 Times in 6,313 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Is that really true? We know what "ends" was voted for, but does the referendum stipulate the "means"? I assumed in regards to strategy and implementation, the government was given a free hand on how to accomplish it?

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but does EAB describe the action they will take in this thread? If so, I will read it. I'm curious to see on which grounds they could claim a breach of contract, and which court will even listen to it. This strikes me more of a diplomatic rather than a legal issue.
About "does the referendum stipulate the "means"?

sadly so as in ""The transitional provisions of the Federal Constitution be amended as follows:
Article 197 para. 9 (new)
9. Transitional provision to Article 121a ( immigration control )
1. The international treaties contradicting art. 121a must be renegotiated and made conforming within three years from the acceptance of that article by the People and the Cantons.""

About "does EAB describe the action they will take in this thread?"
What EAB define actions??
No, just my poor attempt at humour.
They cannot take the alleged "breach of contract" to any court because they specifically state the "the European court of Justice" should not have power over Switzerland so they have themselves decided they have nowhere to go!

It is a diplomatic issue but who is clever enough to persuade a council of all EU ministers to reverse their unanimous decision? Moaning about the process and decision will not achieve anything!
Reply With Quote
  #1225  
Old 09.12.2014, 21:39
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

So a possible ground for a suit might be the EU's refusal to renegotiate reflects a violation of the spirit of the agreement itself? Thereby, suing for the right to renegotiate.
Reply With Quote
  #1226  
Old 09.12.2014, 21:43
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
We know what "ends" was voted for, but does the referendum stipulate the "means"? I assumed in regards to strategy and implementation, the government was given a free hand on how to accomplish it?
You are absolutely correct. MEI text here: http://swisspsi.ch/?page_id=22


Quote:
Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but does EAB describe the action they will take in this thread? If so, I will read it. I'm curious to see on which grounds they could claim a breach of contract, and which court will even listen to it. This strikes me more of a diplomatic rather than a legal issue.
No, no - don't bother. I never said that I was going to take anyone to court etc ...
Reply With Quote
  #1227  
Old 09.12.2014, 21:46
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,564
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,561 Times in 6,313 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Yes, I agree - signing those EU treaties really was problematic - On the other hand there is no problem with the act of calling for renegotiation of those same treaties since there is nothing within those treaties that bans either party from requesting renegotiation - in fact, in light of Article 18 it is guaranteed by the contract! Additionally these treaties did not carry with them a binding time frame - as such either party can back off from the treaties at any time they see fit!
Furthermore, the only one getting a "free lunch" between the EU and Switzerland is clearly the EU, since they pay no price for the benefits they acquire from the Bilaterals with Switzerland! Switzerland, on the other hand, is told to sit down, shut up, and be grateful for whatever they get from the EU - at any cost!

Again, the lame scare tactics.
The best thing we Swiss can do for our economy right now is to take all possible steps to wean our economy off the EU - ie. by entering more trade agreements with the BRICS nations and others!
Apart from that we will still be able to have all the foreign workers and expertise that we need and want. It's a global world and it makes no sense to be locked into dealing with these blackmailing and extortionist EU bureaucrats!
LOL
About "it makes no sense to be locked into dealing with these blackmailing and extortionist EU bureaucrats".

Must be time to take your tablets?
Is this your diplomatic way of describing our biggest export partner?

About "entering more trade agreements with the BRICS nations...." Ah these will be the countries whose currencies are currently collapsing, great business strategy.
Reply With Quote
  #1228  
Old 09.12.2014, 21:47
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
So a possible ground for a suit might be the EU's refusal to renegotiate reflects a violation of the spirit of the agreement itself? Thereby, suing for the right to renegotiate.
Article 18 of the agreement does guarantee the right of either party to request revision or amendment to the agreement, and this be presented to the Joint Committee - which is formed of both EU and Swiss representatives.

AFAIK the Joint Committee has never been presented with the request.
Reply With Quote
  #1229  
Old 09.12.2014, 21:55
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,564
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,561 Times in 6,313 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
So a possible ground for a suit might be the EU's refusal to renegotiate reflects a violation of the spirit of the agreement itself? Thereby, suing for the right to renegotiate.
Good idea but since the people supporting the MEI do not recognise "the European court of Justice" they have nowhere to go!

Since they are also incapable of recognising that the EU General Affairs Council brings together the Foreign Ministers of the Member States and is a more senior body than the "Joint committee" then we are stuck in this endless loop. They complain about the process failure but have failed to propose a solution.
Reply With Quote
  #1230  
Old 09.12.2014, 21:56
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Article 18 of the agreement does guarantee the right of either party to request revision or amendment to the agreement, and this be presented to the Joint Committee - which is formed of both EU and Swiss representatives.

AFAIK the Joint Committee has never been presented with the request.
So I think such a suit would have to be approached from a trans-national front, and not merely a Swiss/EU suit.

Let's get a summit together between Blocher, Farage, Le Pen and a few normally otherwise unsavory characters.

Let's do it in Mallorca, or somewhere warm. Who is funding it? Can we get funding? I'll take care of catering and entertainment.

Quote:
View Post
Good idea but since the people supporting the MEI do not recognise "the European court of Justice" they have nowhere to go!

Since they are also incapable of recognising that the EU General Affairs Council brings together the Foreign Ministers of the Member States and is a more senior body than the "Joint committee" then we are stuck in this endless loop. They complain about the process failure but have failed to propose a solution.

They don't have to do it themselves. An agent can do it for them. That is what lawyers are for.
Reply With Quote
  #1231  
Old 09.12.2014, 21:58
11HoursInTheTinPan's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 504
Groaned at 19 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 892 Times in 354 Posts
11HoursInTheTinPan has a reputation beyond repute11HoursInTheTinPan has a reputation beyond repute11HoursInTheTinPan has a reputation beyond repute11HoursInTheTinPan has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
LOL
About "it makes no sense to be locked into dealing with these blackmailing and extortionist EU bureaucrats".

Must be time to take your tablets?
Is this your diplomatic way of describing our biggest export partner?
I have an even better description for them, but that has no place in a public forum.

Trading shit does not mean agreeing on the policies, ideologies or the political system of the trading partner. Even less does it mean that one wants to adopt any of these.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank 11HoursInTheTinPan for this useful post:
  #1232  
Old 09.12.2014, 22:03
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,564
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,561 Times in 6,313 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Article 18 of the agreement does guarantee the right of either party to request revision or amendment to the agreement, and this be presented to the Joint Committee - which is formed of both EU and Swiss representatives.

AFAIK the Joint Committee has never been presented with the request.
You keep endlessly repeating this mantra but what do you propose to change the situation?
Reply With Quote
  #1233  
Old 09.12.2014, 22:06
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Is this your diplomatic way of describing our biggest export partner?Must be time to take your tablets?
Our trading partners are companies and businesses - not these EU bureaucrats! - And I happen to firmly believe that with or without these extortion-garnered treaties, the rest of Europe would still be our biggest trading partners!

Quote:
About "entering more trade agreements with the BRICS nations...." Ah these will be the countries whose currencies are currently collapsing, great business strategy.
Yeah, sure - never mind that the big 4 are the largest emerging economies in the world and that they account for more than one-quarter of global gross domestic product and around half of developing country output - lets just pick on their so-called "collapsing currencies" ...
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #1234  
Old 09.12.2014, 22:09
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
You keep endlessly repeating this mantra but what do you propose to change the situation?
For the time being nothing. I don't think anything needs to be done about it at this present time. The reason I believe it came up was when people such as yourself kept on whining about the Swiss having done something illegal or against the FMOP contract - hence it was brought to light that calling for revision/renegotiation was NOT outside the boundaries of the contract. Savvy!?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #1235  
Old 09.12.2014, 22:18
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Our trading partners are companies and businesses - not these EU bureaucrats! - And I happen to firmly believe that with or without these extortion-garnered treaties, the rest of Europe would still be our biggest trading partners!
It clearly contradicts free market principles, and is also protectionist at the same time. It's a freakin mafia!
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Phos for this useful post:
  #1236  
Old 09.12.2014, 22:24
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
It clearly contradicts free market principles, and is also protectionist at the same time. It's a freakin mafia!
I know right!?

Isn't it true that EU member states are not permitted to enter into independent trade agreements outside of the EU?
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #1237  
Old 09.12.2014, 22:58
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 22,208
Groaned at 1,166 Times in 913 Posts
Thanked 25,083 Times in 12,011 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
You keep endlessly repeating this mantra but what do you propose to change the situation?
A free trade agreement with the NAFTA, China, and/or Russia.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #1238  
Old 10.12.2014, 00:07
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
A free trade agreement with the NAFTA, China, and/or Russia.

Tom

The Free Trade Agreement with China is nicely enroute. Something similar with India is in the Pipeline. And Messrs Putin & Medvedev have shown interest in a close link-up. And what about links to the Arab League and to Turkey ? Turkey of course may well become the Democratic&Popular Empire of Turkey (DPET) and be a bit larger than the Turkish Republic of today. Sultan Tayyip I may be of help.
Reply With Quote
  #1239  
Old 10.12.2014, 00:13
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,981
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,049 Times in 1,795 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
A free trade agreement with the NAFTA, China, and/or Russia.

Tom
somehow I don't think the average Swiss voter was thinking that they were about to swap a bunch of German and British expats for Chinese and Russian ones.

Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #1240  
Old 10.12.2014, 00:38
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

I don't think Switzerland's approach to the EU should be bilateral. There isn't enough leverage. Its like a contest between a pygmy marmoset and a gorilla.

The Swiss government, or even specific parties, need to reach out to like minded interests and parties already within the EU. They need to solidify their common interests, form a coalition or Special Interest Groups, and address their concerns to the EC. There would be a lot of lobbying involved, and some back room deal-making. It would have to entangle a whole bunch of repercussions to get the EC to listen. This is how the EU likes to play. You have to fight fire with fire.

First thing they need to do is compel the EU to establish a channel for reform. The personality of the EU needs to change from an empire demeanor to an intra-governmental agency. It needs to reassert its purpose as one of helping and benefitting its members, instead of burdening and ruling over them. Should such a transformation ever take place, it may be worthwhile jumping on. Until then, Switzerland ought to stay neutral and away from these Empire building schemes.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phos for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
erasmus, european union, fmop, horizon, immigration, masseneinwanderung, vote




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Immigration status of Non-EU starting a business in Switzerland alesco Business & entrepreneur 28 09.11.2015 14:26
Masseneinwanderung [Immigration] vote - Facts Slaphead Swiss politics/news 4 29.06.2014 19:59
Is there any age limits to starting a PhD? Breezy Family matters/health 15 18.11.2012 01:23
Immigration limits in the UK: what about scientists? HashBrown International affairs/politics 5 08.10.2010 00:29


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0